Soundcraft Si Expression 3 Monitor Mixes

[Craig Vecchione]

Just determining where the failure is occurring during a show can take enough time to turn your face bright red. Things like having to use specific cabling and connectors are details that the manufacturer should have worked out ahead of time. Especially when they advertise big name acts using their gear professionally, implying that the gear is ready for prime time. Some of the failures we see in digital gear really speak to the lack of understanding some mfg's have in R&D of this type of animal. They'll get it right eventually, but I did enough beta-testing in my professional career, and don't want to do it for free here...

[wesg]

I have to admit to being surprised at hearing of issues like "loss of sync" with digital snakes. This is stuff is really well-understood from an underlying tech POV. Putting 32 channels of 1Mbit audio over Cat 5E twisted-pair using gigabit ethernet (OSI layer 2) should be a piece of cake.

 

I'm really curious about these "Ethercon" connectors, the need for STP at these data rates, and so on.

 

Of course, when networking professionals do a run of Cat 5E, they don't just randomly throw it on the floor and call it done. The cable is protected, kept away from interference sources like lighting ballasts when possible, curves are bigger than 4x jacket diameter, and (most importantly) it is tested.

 

Do any of the digital snakes have facilities for testing their data runs? Has anybody had the sense to partner with a vendor like Cisco to develop their layer 2 stuff?

 

I'm also surprised that all of these boxes don't use two cables everywhere for redundancy. But maybe that's just the "five nines" guy in me talking again.

 

Wes

[DrMRG]

I have to admit to being surprised at hearing of issues like "loss of sync" with digital snakes. This is stuff is really well-understood from an underlying tech POV. Putting 32 channels of 1Mbit audio over Cat 5E twisted-pair using gigabit ethernet (OSI layer 2) should be a piece of cake.

 

I'm really curious about these "Ethercon" connectors, the need for STP at these data rates, and so on.

 

Of course, when networking professionals do a run of Cat 5E, they don't just randomly throw it on the floor and call it done. The cable is protected, kept away from interference sources like lighting ballasts when possible, curves are bigger than 4x jacket diameter, and (most importantly) it is tested.

 

Do any of the digital snakes have facilities for testing their data runs? Has anybody had the sense to partner with a vendor like Cisco to develop their layer 2 stuff?

 

I'm also surprised that all of these boxes don't use two cables everywhere for redundancy. But maybe that's just the "five nines" guy in me talking again.

 

Wes

 

Wes,

 

Many of the vendors have developed their own proprietary protocols which are not Ethernet based.

 

For example, Soundcraft uses a variant of AES-10 Serial Multichannel Audio Digital Interface known as MADI (http://www.iis.ee.ethz.ch/~felber/Da...aes10-2003.pdf).

 

Behringer uses a variant of AES-50 called SuperMAC (http://www.supermac-hypermac.com/). SuperMAC is not compatible with off-the-shelf IT equipment and requires dedicated special purpose routers (e.g. Midas DL461, DL371).

 

Regarding the Ethercon connectors: The Behringer X32 had issues with static electricity causing sync loss when using standard networking cables that did not have Ethercon connectors at each end (

).

 

Most manufacturers offer dual connections to the stage boxes for the redundancy you mentioned.

 

One protocol that is Ethernet based is Dante (https://www.audinate.com/), but it is relatively new compared to the others. I would prefer to use Dante because you can send audio to any computer by using the Dante Virtual Soundcard driver. This eliminates the need to use an expensive MADI interface or rely on slower channel limited interfaces such as USB or Firewire. I believe that since manufactures have so much invested in the proprietary protocols, they have been slow to build in Dante to their consoles. Fortunately, that is changing now for the better...

[Saturn1212]

Happy New Year & excuse brief interruption of current topic on Digital/Analog (heavy ) Snake.

 

Thanks everyone who responded to my questions, provided support & guidance on my purchase of Soundcraft Expression 3 + Multi-card & Gator case. The new Baby is home and needing much attention!

 

Michael,

I would have taking you up on offer to purchase your Milti-card but got your message after I got back from Guitar Center after purchase. Thx.

 

Now the hard work begins. Leaning! I saw Soundcraft has training videos on their site and also their Facebook page as suggested previously on this thread.

 

[DrMRG]

Happy New Year & excuse brief interruption of current topic on Digital/Analog (heavy ) Snake.

 

Thanks everyone who responded to my questions, provided support & guidance on my purchase of Soundcraft Expression 3 + Multi-card & Gator case. The new Baby is home and needing much attention!

 

Michael,

I would have taking you up on offer to purchase your Milti-card but got your message after I got back from Guitar Center after purchase. Thx.

 

Now the hard work begins. Leaning! I saw Soundcraft has training videos on their site and also their Facebook page as suggested previously on this thread.

 

The YouTube videos are pretty good. Also, make sure you download and install the latest firmware for your board. Also, get the off line editor as its a good way to get familiar with your board.

[agedhorse]

In theory everything is easy, in practice not so easy

[OneEng]

Happy New Year & excuse brief interruption of current topic on Digital/Analog (heavy ) Snake.

 

Thanks everyone who responded to my questions, provided support & guidance on my purchase of Soundcraft Expression 3 + Multi-card & Gator case. The new Baby is home and needing much attention!

 

Michael,

I would have taking you up on offer to purchase your Milti-card but got your message after I got back from Guitar Center after purchase. Thx.

 

Now the hard work begins. Leaning! I saw Soundcraft has training videos on their site and also their Facebook page as suggested previously on this thread.

Congratulations. It is a fine board. I am sure you are going to love it. I don't know of anyone who has one that isn't happy with it.

[Craig Vecchione]

 

Happy New Year & excuse brief interruption of current topic on Digital/Analog (heavy ) Snake.

 

Thanks everyone who responded to my questions, provided support & guidance on my purchase of Soundcraft Expression 3 + Multi-card & Gator case. The new Baby is home and needing much attention!

 

Michael,

I would have taking you up on offer to purchase your Milti-card but got your message after I got back from Guitar Center after purchase. Thx.

 

Now the hard work begins. Leaning! I saw Soundcraft has training videos on their site and also their Facebook page as suggested previously on this thread.

 

 

Let us know what you think of the Fader-Glo feature after using the console a while. I reviewed this mixer last year and had a helluva time remembering which color did what...there are a LOT of colors, IMO.

[Saturn1212]

Hi all,

 

Soundcraft Expression 3 - So WHERE ARE THE PRESETS?

 

I am finally going to use the board for a gig this Friday in NY. I read the manual, saw some videos, set the FXs, Aux sends, everything is going well. Now is time to configure the ACS (Gate, Compressor, EQ) for each channel. Being a novice, I don't have a good handle on this yet (took an online course, not yet fully versed), so I figured this board (Like my Presonus 16.4.2) and modern digital board, must have available pre-sets for various instruments and vocals I can upload to each channel and modify if needed and I am ready to go! I don't see any or the user's guide does not mentions any!

 

Are there pre-configured preset that I can leverage in the Soundcraft Expression 3? or I am on my own and worry I'll fail on Friday?

[DrMRG]

Soundcraft Expression 3 - So WHERE ARE THE PRESETS?

 

Are there pre-configured preset that I can leverage in the Soundcraft Expression 3? or I am on my own and worry I'll fail on Friday?

 

Presets?

 

Other than the effects, there are no provided presets. This is because there are so many variations on microphones, instruments, musicians, and venues it would not make sense to provide one size fits all channel presets. Instead, you should play with the ACS and listen to what sounds best and make your own presets.

 

The Expression has the ability to save and recall the complete state of the board in Cues.

 

A great way to learn about this board (and practice doing input/output patching, fader setup, and store/recall queues) is to use the Si Offline Editor (available for download on the Soundcraft website).

 

Here is how to store/retrieve cues:

 

Look at the group of buttons above the L/R and Mono/SEL faders. If you hit the Cue List button, you will see the cues that have been saved in this Show on the LCD screen. Now, press the Store button and it will save the complete state of the board in Unnamed Snapshot 1. You can then press Edit Cue and that brings up a screen where you can rename the Cue to something more meaningful (like Test Cue 1). Note that you can also change the MIDI Transmit, MIDI Receive, and HiQNet Transmit information. Now move the channel 1 fader to mid position and press the Store button again. This will create a new snapshot which you can name Test Cue 2. Now rotate the knob to Test Cue 1 and press Recall. Notice how fader 1 returns to its original position. Note that the complete state of the board is saved when you do this (input patching, direct outs, Phantom power, EQs, .....).

 

You can create as many cues as you have memory in the SD card.....

 

Each Show file has its own set of cues associated with it. I think of a Show as a container for a particular band or venue. The cues then are for different setups or applications. For example, in my band we have a cue LIVE LOCAL REC which stands for live local recording where the inputs are from the back of the console and sent direct outs via USB for recording, LIVE SB REC which stands for live stagebox recording where the inputs are from the mini stagebox and sent direct outs via USB for recording, VIRTUAL SC which stands for virtual soundcheck where the inputs are from the computer via USB. You can also have one cue for each song, if you like....

 

You should periodically export your Show file to a USB stick. I recommend buying a few, formatting them using FAT32, and making backups whenever you can things. I name the show file by the date that I saved them for reference. Best of all, you can load, edit, and save the show file using the Offline Editor. You can create a whole new setup on the PC and then load it on the console.

 

Its a pretty powerful board once you get to know it. However, I would not recommend you gig with the board until you feel comfortable running it. If you are just going to use the default setup (no complex changes to patching or routing) it should be a piece of cake.

 

By all means, ask questions if you have any and I will try to help.

 

Michael

[Craig Vecchione]

No presets.

 

I know this'll sound harsh, but it's time to take off the training wheels and learn your craft.

 

The good news is that you definitely don't have to worry about failing. You don't need to know all the parameters available for effects, for instance. Less is more with effects and most processing, so you should only be adding something when you actually hear a problem that you can recognize, define, and then seek a solution. Build knowledge gradually. Just because the console has something doesn't mean you need to use it.

[DrMRG]

Just because the console has something doesn't mean you need to use it.

 

I have to agree 1000% percent on this. When I first started using the Expression, I was trying to take advantage of all of the bells and whistles. I soon realized that my mixes were sounding like crap. I then started taking the minimalist approach, only adding compression when absolutely necessary, using EQ only when absolutely needed, etc... and things sounded much better.

 

Also, be aware that people like to play with the board.... After practice one evening, we were listening to the playback and it sounded like an AM radio. The reason is the guitar players son had adjusted the graphic EQ on the main outs because it looked cool with the Red fader glow and he made a pattern with the faders. This is one of the reasons you need to be familiar with the board. There is a GEQ on every one of the 14 mix busses, 4 matrix busses, and the main LR outputs, You need to be aware of how to check these quickly in case some one plays with the board. You can prevent this using the password feature, make sure you remember the password!

 

This board has some cool features, but does not have everything I want. Here are some of the cons: The remote mixing is currently only available on the iPad (there are hits it will be on other devices soon) and the Mixes cannot be individually locked using a password. This means that a musician who is adjusting their own monitor mix can also change others or the main mix accidentally! It is awkward to switch the board from live record mode to virtual sound check mode as you have to save a cue and repatch the inputs. Despite these limitations, it is by far the best console I have ever owned.

 

Check out the Soundcraft YouTube videos. For example, here is one on the cues:

[Saturn1212]

Thanks for the valuable advise. Training wheels coming off! I will start with less for signal processing and add as I learn and become more familiar. I thinking of going online and try to find a list of suggested settings, with the understanding that every scenario is different. Nevertheless, I would assume those of you with experience must start at some baseline when you setup up a vocal/instrument channel. Will look for baseline chart online.

 

Michael, I did download the offline editor when you suggested it a few weeks back, but was not sure what it was. I am going to install and try it.

 

As far as CUE, I understand is an entire configuration of the board, I would assume is the same as what PreSonus calles a SCENE. Nevertheless, can I save just ONE CHANNEL to create my own custom Presets or ACS channel configurations that I can store and recall as needed?

 

Michael, you stated the following cons: ~~"It is awkward to switch the board from live record mode to virtual sound check mode as you have to save a cue and repatch the inputs."

 

In addition you stated this: ~~in my band we have a cue LIVE LOCAL REC which stands for live local recording where the inputs are from the back of the console and sent direct outs via USB for recording

 

I want to be able to do a virtual sound check & recording via MacBookPro, so does that mean I need to create a cue for "Live Recording", another cue for "Virtual Sound Check" and a third cue for "Normal Live Performance"? if so, that's not very flexible. Why can I just have one CUE that allows me to record, Virtual Sound Check and play normally without having to switch?

Note I use no Digital stage boxes/snakes etc. My inputs come from two 16 channel analog snakes only.

 

Regards.

 

 

[DrMRG]

Michael, I did download the offline editor when you suggested it a few weeks back, but was not sure what it was. I am going to install and try it.

 

You install the Offline Editor on a PC (no Mac version yet). It allows you to edit / create show files from the board. It is also a very useful learning tool when you don't have the console in from of you.

 

As far as CUE, I understand is an entire configuration of the board, I would assume is the same as what PreSonus calles a SCENE. Nevertheless, can I save just ONE CHANNEL to create my own custom Presets or ACS channel configurations that I can store and recall as needed?

 

No. But you can accomplish this functionality by copying your favorite channel setting to one of the unused channels. You have 60 channels to play with, so its not a problem to do this.

 

I want to be able to do a virtual sound check & recording via MacBookPro, so does that mean I need to create a cue for "Live Recording", another cue for "Virtual Sound Check" and a third cue for "Normal Live Performance"? if so, that's not very flexible. Why can I just have one CUE that allows me to record, Virtual Sound Check and play normally without having to switch?

Note I use no Digital stage boxes/snakes etc. My inputs come from two 16 channel analog snakes only.

 

You will only need two cues: The LiveRecord cue has the channel inputs coming from the Mic inputs from rear of the console. The VirtualSoundcheck cue has the channel inputs coming from the USB port. You can manually change the board patching, but it is quicker to use cues for this. I basically recall the LiveRecord, save it as VirtualSoundCheck, then repatch the channel inputs to come from the USB port. Then save the cue.

[Saturn1212]

Michael, you state ~~I recall the LiveRecord, save it as VirtualSoundCheck, then repatch the channel inputs to come from the USB port. Then save the cue. Ok so you have two cues LiveRecord & VrtualSoundCheck. Now you are at gig and ready for Virtual Sound Check, you recall your VirtualSounCheck cue, you modify your mix as required, you save the virtualSoundCheck, now you are ready to go live. You recall your LiveRecord,

 

Q - didn't you just lost all the work done during virtual sound check since you just recalled your original LiveRecord & all edits were saved to the VirtualSoundCheck cue? Not sure how the edits done in virtual sound check carry over to the LiveRecord mode.

 

Thanks.

 

 

[DrMRG]

Q - didn't you just lost all the work done during virtual sound check since you just recalled your original LiveRecord & all edits were saved to the VirtualSoundCheck cue? Not sure how the edits done in virtual sound check carry over to the LiveRecord mode.

 

Yes, you are correct. As I said it is a bit awkward. So, after doing your tweeks on the virtual sound check, you save it as Live and repatch the inputs back to the mic inputs.

[Saturn1212]

Gig went well, the board did its job. I had no choice but to use the board (against advise), but I needed 26 channels and my current presonus 16.4.2 can not accommodate. I will admit, would have been nice to have the scribble strip, etc. Nevertheless, it went well. I have 1 week left before I can return the board, so I will continue to compare and decide by this week. Thanks again to all who provided guidance and support.

[Craig Vecchione]

It's a heckuva good mixer. The learning curve isn't too bad once you get used to their terminology, and can remember all the damned FaderGlo colors!!

[DrMRG]

I will admit' date=' would have been nice to have the scribble strip, etc.[/quote']

 

I am glad everything worked out well using this board. Once you get used to it, it becomes second nature.

 

I thought the scribble strips were a big deal at first, but I simply use the old school solution of painters tape and a Sharpie.

 

I seriously was considering the Performer as it has the scribble strips and full parametric, but I could not justify the additional $2.5K-$3K over the Expression. However, the Expression has been the best audio gear I have ever purchased !

[DrMRG]

It's a heckuva good mixer. The learning curve isn't too bad once you get used to their terminology' date=' and can remember all the damned FaderGlo colors!![/quote']

 

I like the FaderGlo as it reminds me where I am when I am setting up a mix. I understand this feature was inherited from the larger Vi consoles. I feel lucky to have the capability in the Expression for a reasonable price. No more carrying a huge out board processing rack. As I (and my back) get older, this is a valuable benefit

[TimmyP]

With the Behringer P16, the bus limitations should no longer be a problem - plenty of monitor mixes. However the A&H MeMix is even better - up to 40 channels.

 

I find sidechain EQ on the comps to be very useful. Of all the 'affordable' digitals, I think only the X32 has it.

[Craig Vecchione]

With the Behringer P16, the bus limitations should no longer be a problem - plenty of monitor mixes. However the A&H MeMix is even better - up to 40 channels.

 

I find sidechain EQ on the comps to be very useful. Of all the 'affordable' digitals, I think only the X32 has it.

 

How do two personal mixers relate to a thread about a specific full-feature console? Either way I wouldn't consider 14 configurable aux sends to be a bus limitation on a 32 channel console, but ymmv.

[Saturn1212]

The FaderGlo feature was awesome and very useful.

I know is not a big deal, but I am still a bit unhappy about the lack of scribble strip, pre-sets, cannot save a channel to a preset, virtual sound check limitations etc., features other digital consoles have. But cannot justify an addition 3K for a scribble strip in the Performer.

 

concerning Virtual Sound check, I know you need to ~~repatch the inputs back to the mic inputs after Virtual check, but I was watching videos on X32 virtual sound check, and it looks like is the same issue there. you have to repatch the inputs to interface card to get it started which is expected, but no video showed the final stage of the process, and I am assuming that you need to repatch it back manually when you are done and overwrite your scene and save it. Looks like is the same challenge as the Expression 3?

 

 

[DrMRG]

Looks like is the same challenge as the Expression 3?

 

I know the channel preset save is not as convenient as it could be, but if you have empty channels you can achieve the same result.

 

Good question! I don't have an X32, so perhaps someone else can chime in....