What is your recording setup and how do you record hardware synths?

[wheresgrant3]

This has been bothering me for a while. My audio out recordings using my "hard synths" never sound as clear as my "midi"'d recordings using my soft synths.

 

I have several synths (Korgs, Roland) and some softsynths/samplers like Abysnth, Atmospheres, and Kontrakt. My recording software is Sonar 3 Pro. My PC is a home grown P-IV 2.6GB, w/ 1 GB Ram, 2-80GB drives and two sound cards- Audigy II (for games, music) and a Audiophile 24/96 for recording.

 

My synths run stereo into a Yamaha MG10/2 mixer, and run stereo out into my Audiophile sound card. I have a controller midi's using a USB Midiman.

 

My issue is that I can never seem to get my audio input levels to a comfortable level. Either I crank the gain up too high and the levels distort (especially during fat bass/rez patches) or I leave them too soft, which requires me to crank my monitoring volume very loud. There is also a bit of noise (soft hiss) that's obviously from the mixer.

 

I'm just curious, how you record your hardware synths. If you use a workstation like a Motif or Triton, do you do a majority of the sequencing onboard and then just record the finished product?

[TheProteus]

I have multiple hardware synths ran into a MOTU 24i on the analog side, and a MOTU 2408 on the digital side. My E4 Platinum runs into my system via ADAT.

 

On older Roland synths - specifically my Juno, I had to adjust the input trim via CueMix to +12dB.

 

Some things to check on your mixer would be:

 

- are you going into a hi-Z instrument input, or a low-Z mic input? If you're not matched up, you need to either plug into an instrument in or get a DI box.

 

- Are your EQ settings flat, and do you have a -20dB pad on the channels you're working with? If so, is it enabled?

 

- how is your gain structure set? Are you blasting the channel while having the mains down, or vice-versa? A mix of both? Each mixer usually has a gain diagram that shows how much headroom you have per channel. This may be a problem.

 

These are good points to start at. Since I run directly into an audio interface with no mixer in between, I don't see why you'd be having a problem with an Audiophile card. The converters on the Audigy are {censored} - crappy philips converters that Creative paid $0.75 each for. The audigy card is the embodiment of the definition "marketing bits".

[pighood]

Strictly old skool....Run synths to Yamaha MG16/6FX analog mixer, then out of the mixer to a Yamaha AW16G Hard Disk Recorder.

[jigg]

My setup is pretty minimal, considering. For audio, I run all my hard synths (Motif, JV1010, and TR-Rack) through a Berhinger RX1602 16-channel line mixer into a Delta 44. The noise level is surprisingly low (with the notable exception of the JV1010, not sure why).

For MIDI, I run everything into a MOTU Microlite 5x5 USB.

A good example of typical use is a backing track I just finished for a client for live use. The track consisted of keys, bass, drums, strings, organ, and one brass sample. Everything MIDI was sequenced within Cubase. For sounds, I used the Motif for everything but the organ and brass sample. For the organ, I used the B4, and the brass sample (which was conveniently in the same key) was imported directly as a WAV. The end result was pretty good. I'll post it tonight when I get home. Not great, but decent considering it came out of a "home studio".

[Mook]

 

Originally posted by wheresgrant3 This has been bothering me for a while. My audio out recordings using my "hard synths" never sound as clear as my "midi"'d recordings using my soft synths. I have several synths (Korgs, Roland) and some softsynths/samplers like Abysnth, Atmospheres, and Kontrakt. My recording software is Sonar 3 Pro. My PC is a home grown P-IV 2.6GB, w/ 1 GB Ram, 2-80GB drives and two sound cards- Audigy II (for games, music) and a Audiophile 24/96 for recording. My synths run stereo into a Yamaha MG10/2 mixer, and run stereo out into my Audiophile sound card. I have a controller midi's using a USB Midiman. My issue is that I can never seem to get my audio input levels to a comfortable level. Either I crank the gain up too high and the levels distort (especially during fat bass/rez patches) or I leave them too soft, which requires me to crank my monitoring volume very loud. There is also a bit of noise (soft hiss) that's obviously from the mixer. I'm just curious, how you record your hardware synths. If you use a workstation like a Motif or Triton, do you do a majority of the sequencing onboard and then just record the finished product?

 

 

Have you got a compressor/limiter which you could use between the mixer and the soundcard?

 

Do you record the mix straight in from the external synths, or do you solo them and record them individually to separate audio tracks (which is what I do, so I can then process and mix them within the PC)?

[ExplodingBoy]

I also have noticed that sometimes a pre-amp REALLY helps even for synths. My Nord Electro did not have a very hot signal at all so when I tried to record it, I found that I was often times turning the monitors up way too high to hear it, or I was getting that same shrill overdrive which was not desireable when I turned it up too loud.

 

A pre-amp or compressor helps to get your sound more level and equal. Just a thought. I'm no expert on recording though, I will say that.

[AvS]

Wich synth do you have, wheresgrant3? Some synths have really low outputs. I use to have an audiophile to and had no problems getting a loud signal from my synths except my ESQ-1 wich has a really low output so i bought a preamp.

Right now I have an RME Multiface and for some reason I have

the same problem as you with this card.

My synths go to my mixer. I record my Virus B through a stereo channel on the mixer and then to the Multiface. My two other synth are mono and they go to two mono channels. I then have a Focusrite Preamp connected to aux send 1, on the mixer and the out of the preamp goes directly to the soundcard. The two mono channels with the two synths are set send to aux 1 pre fader.

I have no problem getting a loud enough signal with these two synths that goes through the preamp, but I have with the Virus.

[MuzikB]

6 hardware synths patched into a Mackie LM3204 mixer with its main output patched into a MOTU 828 MkII.

 

The synth outputs go to the Mackie. The synth inputs are tied to the MOTU for bussing.

 

Everything is first done with MIDI in Live 4 and then audio tracks are created.

[wheresgrant3]

I record from the synths, to my mixer, straight to my soundcard.

 

 

I don't use any compression... maybe I should.

[Darkstorm]

Plugs Zoom harddisk multitrack recorded & cd burner into mixer. Simple. Allways gets better sound from dedicated hardware multitrack recorder and hardware synths.

[Mike51]

wheresgrant - I have been experiencing trouble lately with my hardware recordings. Im running a delta 66 which has always been great. But I notice after the last driver changes I have been getting low volumes , and easy distortion. Im not sure why.

 

Mess around with your controlpanel and adjust the levels in variable signal levels.

 

I use cool edit to record and have never had this problem until recently.

 

Im using a Triton, knobby k-station and a Roland d110 with joe meek comrpess pre amp as well as various mics.

[The Audacity Works]

Originally posted by wheresgrant3 I'm just curious, how you record your hardware synths.

I don't. All my hardware synths are sequenced and monitored through an outboard digital mixer, playing realtime until final mixdown.

[Allerian]

I run everything (synths, guitars, mics, casios, wierd toys, etc into a Behringer mixer and out to my trusty BR-532 recorder - than I take those recordings into Acid and mix. Noiseless and clean as you could ever want.

[tucktronix]

My setup for the past 5 1/2 years:

 

The S80, Boss 770 and MicroKorg connected to the Fostex DMT-8vL HD recorder w/built-in mixer. From recorder into soundcard.

The recordings are usually pretty clean.

 

 

Tuck

[clusterchord]

for composing/sequencing i have all hardware boards hooked into behringer 2642 , including the output of Nuendo Digiset - that carries DAW playback and Emulator and TC4000 that are connected via ADAT, and SRV3030D via SPDIF. Mixer output goes to ADAM active monitors.

 

 

when i'm done with comp/arr/seq part i re-patch each hardware synth i used, one by one, directly to Mindprint An/DI that has a separate class A intrument preamp with HI-Z inputs (as well as MIC pre), and also has a high(er) end A/D converters. i keep a FMR RNC compressor on inserts, running in 'supernice' mode, to add just a touch of transparent compression or 'safety net' if you will.

 

with all the re-patching at the rear of the behringer, my tracking system gets a bit tedious, but i plan to add a patchbay to quicken this, and later i plan to get a multi input A/D (like Fireface800) to avoid having a crappy analog mixer for monitoring altogether. but for tracking, i'll retain patching thru the best pre/converter signal path i currently have. hopefully next year i'll replace the Mindprint with dbl Avalon U5 into Rosetta200 system.

 

this way i avoid going thru behringers audio path all together, and solve all impedance and level issues on a dedicated intrument pre/DI. it does make a difference in sound. Behringer line input doesnt have true instrument inputs. instead of having a dedicated instr. pre or a nice transformer for conversion to low-z and balancing beforte pre, they use a heavy pad before letting it thru behringers crappy mic pre. it really kills the signal. dont worry, this is done on all lower end mixers like mackie, samson, phonic etc, not just behringer.

 

make no mistake about it - your synths can and do sound better if you go thru a pre. there are two reasons for this:

 

1. conrary to popular belief, line level A/D converter inputs impedance are NOT 100% matching the output impedance of keyboards/synths. A HI-Z D.I. input on a pre, or a D.I. box into a pre, takes care of this while retaining linearity. Anyone who has put his Triton or MPC into an API pre before hitting A/D knows this too well.. (for example all RnB beats/drums are tracked this way)

 

just boosting your audio card input isnt going to solve this - impedance mismatch results in freq. response non linearities, especially in extreme high and low ranges - that s how 'shrill' or 'thin' sound comes about when going direct to your card. you end up boosting the less than perfect sound, that's all.

 

2. some pre's have 'pleasant' colouration that tends to make certain signals 'larger than life', this is especially true for digital sources; synths that , when hooked directly to A/D, sound pale and somewhat lifeless.

[robmix]

For monitoring, all my synths come up in mackie 3204 mixers. For tracking I bypass the mixers and use the DI inputs on Manley tube, Great River, Neve, Wunder and Focusrite micpre's. This way I can boost levels, match impedance, and tweak (add EQ or compression) before the synths hit the DAW.

 

Rob

[John B NYC]

 

 

I record directly into logic via a Motu 828mk2 In the near future i want to purchase some sort of analog mixer + some other goodies maybe some TC electronic stuff.

[Mook]

 

Originally posted by clusterchord [b 1. conrary to popular belief, line level A/D converter inputs impedance are NOT 100% matching the output impedance of keyboards/synths. A HI-Z D.I. input on a pre, or a D.I. box into a pre, takes care of this while retaining linearity. Anyone who has put his Triton or MPC into an API pre before hitting A/D knows this too well.. (for example all RnB beats/drums are tracked this way) just boosting your audio card input isnt going to solve this - impedance mismatch results in freq. response non linearities, especially in extreme high and low ranges - that s how 'shrill' or 'thin' sound comes about when going direct to your card. you end up boosting the less than perfect sound, that's all. 2. some pre's have 'pleasant' colouration that tends to make certain signals 'larger than life', this is especially true for digital sources; synths that , when hooked directly to A/D, sound pale and somewhat lifeless.

 

 

I didn't know this. Could you give some examples of some Pre's /DI's I could investigate (and hopefully try out)

[robmix]

 

Originally posted by Mookus I didn't know this. Could you give some examples of some Pre's /DI's I could investigate (and hopefully try out)

 

 

Check out the pre's I listed above: Neve, Great River, and Manley Tube. You might also check out DW Fearn Tube pre's.

 

 

Rob

[cheptronics]

I record to the sound card (RME). This sound card has only line level inputs. Therefore, depending on the source I want to record, I may add an old Tascam analogue mixer (which has good preamps + 48 Phantom). Perhaps a RME QuadraMic would be more suited.

Sometimes, I also use some software amplifiers in combination with it all.

 

-ch

[Analog Kid]

um... mines a little convoluted, but its easy enough to follow if keep up.

 

My recording is basically all done on the Roland VS-1680, although i have Digital Performer too (3.11)

 

So, the easy stuff is VS-1680 channel

1/2: D-50 and related FX

3/4: I feed a D2 into a SP-505 and into this channel

5/6: Yamaha SY-77

7/8: Roland DJ-70mkII

Digital- well, I feed a JP-8080 and a VariOS into a SRV-3030D that hits the "main" input of a SP-808EX, the Aux input is hooked up to my Waldorf XT... the SP-808 feeds the digital input of a Emu 1212m... the Analog inputs are fed by the vocal and guitar mics and related FX (for the vocal channel AKG C-414, Presonus tube pre, DBX comp, TC chorus), This goes thru the PC adding basically one synth into a lightpipe that hits a beige G3 desktop mac via my Oasys card (which adds another synth). This is the stage i pretty much have to submix unless i want to use DP. No biggie as most of this is midi, which i dont tend to track until master anyways, except when im recording with a mic. Then i can record to DP, or record the midi part to audio for a guide on my 1680 (Obviously i couldnt play the midi sequence and track the vocal in stereo... not a big limitation... I usually dont even bother to use DP)

 

It all sounds pretty good to me, even the stuff that's using the Roland A/D convertors... The Emu preamps sound pretty clear, but im a little inclined to think the Korg sounds slightly better... very subjective. I think the Emu has higher specs, but i do all my stuff in 24bit 44.1khz, so a lot of that advanced {censored} is lost on me.

[Sleepin' Deeper]

My Motif ES6 and Virus KC go into my Allen & Heath Mix Wizard. From here I send them to my EMU 1820 souncard via the auxiliary sends. This way I can control the synths levels for monitoring, as well as for audio recording, from the same unit. Once my sequence and arrangement is finished, I record each synth track separately as audio. What I usually do is record as loud as possible. Then in Cubase, I look at the wavepattern of the recorded track to make sure there's no peaking. I love it how easy it is then to mix and add mastering effects in Cubase once I have them all as separate audio tracks. I do keep some tracks as midi (special fx or one off drones, sweeps etc..) because I can't be arsed to record everything as audio. But the most important elements like bass, kick, snare, percussion, leads etc... I always record as audio first.

[nectarios]

Besides the final effects returns, everything gets recorded as audio beore the mix down.

Stereo synths go through the buss where a Joemeek SC2.2 is instered, or where a TLaudio indigo is. Stereo drum stuff from the AKAI S1100, the Roland SPD-S or from the HDD, are recorded through the same compressors as the stereo synths, but sometimes they go through a DBX 266XL or an Alesis 3630 that are inserted on different busses.

 

Mono synths (as well as some mono drum stuff) go through a Joemeek VC1Qcs that has the extra digital output card fitted and goes directly to the SPDIF input on the Delta 1010, or through the Indigo that is inserted on a buss.

 

Using a Soundcraft Studio 8 series 24/48 desk where the effects returns are recorded as audio for individual parts and 6 final effects returns get recorded in the mixdown.

 

Quite a bit of audio goes through modular synths that have envelope followers fitted so I can route external audio though them and process the sound to my licking.

 

Peace.

[Analog Kid]

Originally posted by nectarios Quite a bit of audio goes through modular synths that have envelope followers fitted so I can route external audio though them and process the sound to my licking. Peace.

 

no wonder you're not into digital... You dont get the same buzz from CV when you lick a digital synth compared to tounging the bananna plugs on your modulars.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[clusterchord]

 

Originally posted by Mookus I didn't know this. Could you give some examples of some Pre's /DI's I could investigate (and hopefully try out)

 

 

 

Of the high(er) end of things most popular are:

 

PRE's: Great River MP-2NV, UA 2-610, API 3124+, Vintech 473

 

DI/INTR. PRE: Avalon U5, Millenia TD1, GT Brick

 

D.I.s: Radial JDI (clean), Manley Tube Direct

 

 

Also check the more affordable solutions like:

 

UA 2108 (class A , API sound), Sebatron 2ch ot 4ch Tube

 

 

more pre or DI>Pre combos u use , easier it is to mix.