Members GigMan Posted March 14, 2005 Members Share Posted March 14, 2005 Ok, so I've noticed that even on the very latest versions of the Big 3 Workstations - Yamaha Motif ES series, Korg Triton Extreme series + Roland's Fantom X series - that the Yamaha Motif ES is the ONLY one to have separate wheels for Pitch Bend and Modulation. The Triton Extremes + the Roland Fantom X series still have that cockamamie joystick/bendy-lever thingamabob... I don't like the joystick and I think having the separate wheels is a GREAT move on Yamaha's part. I guess I'd even put up with a smaller, less colorful screen - as the Mo' ES has - in order to gain the separate wheels for controller functions. What do youse think...?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members eric Posted March 14, 2005 Members Share Posted March 14, 2005 I really wish that each manufacturer would include *BOTH* the paddle and the 2 wheels, like the Roland A-90 and A-70 controllers. I grew up a Roland boy and got pretty accustomed to the paddle. But I really like being able to push the mod wheel and leave it up, especially when I have it mapped to change certain parameters. Given the choice, I would go with wheels, but still see value in the paddle/joystick. It is surprising that Korg has also done wheels on some of their synths (Wavestation, MicroKorg), yet their flagship remains joystick only! Maybe this is not a hotly contested item for most people. Regards,Eric Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members acoustictones Posted March 14, 2005 Members Share Posted March 14, 2005 Originally posted by GigMan I guess I'd even put up with a smaller, less colorful screen - as the Mo' ES has - in order to gain the separate wheels for controller functions. Wow, I've never heard of that being a or THE major deciding factor for anyone on something with in the $1800 to $3000 range. I may prefer one over the other, but it would be an almost after thought compared to what I would consider the MAJORS (ie: Sounds and Work flow or interface). I'm just given ya a hard time. I agree that I also would prefer to see them sepperate, BUT it still really comes down to the tones, the over all work flow or interface, and the way the instrument feels to me (a good key bed goes a long way for me when it comes to spending THAT KIND OF MONEY). But if I could take any workstatioin and add my own features I also would seperate the two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GigMan Posted March 14, 2005 Author Members Share Posted March 14, 2005 Originally posted by eric ...I really like being able to push the mod wheel and leave it up, especially when I have it mapped to change certain parameters. Yes - Like if you have an organ patch and you want to give it some modulation/Leslie sim. type action - but then, you want to pull it back to a non-modulating sound gradually. Originally posted by eric Given the choice, I would go with wheels, but still see value in the paddle/joystick. It is surprising that Korg has also done wheels on some of their synths (Wavestation, MicroKorg), yet their flagship remains joystick only! Maybe this is not a hotly contested item for most people. ...maybe not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GigMan Posted March 14, 2005 Author Members Share Posted March 14, 2005 Originally posted by acoustictones Wow, I've never heard of that being a or THE major deciding factor for anyone on something with in the $1800 to $3000 range. I may prefer one over the other, but it would be an almost after thought compared to what I would consider the MAJORS (ie: Sounds and Work flow or interface). I'm just given ya a hard time. I agree that I also would prefer to see them sepperate, BUT it still really comes down to the tones, the over all work flow or interface, and the way the instrument feels to me (a good key bed goes a long way for me when it comes to spending THAT KIND OF MONEY). But if I could take any workstatioin and add my own features I also would seperate the two. Yah, I guess I can see that. Good keybed actually takes priority for me too - WAY more important than interface or joystick vs. mod. wheel: COMBINED. I have a Triton Le - great interface, god-awful keybed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members acoustictones Posted March 14, 2005 Members Share Posted March 14, 2005 Currently I am without a workstation, and am using 90% soft synths, but for close to $2000 to $3000...yeah, the key bed is HUGE!!! I'm using a Novation X-Station 25 and a M-Audio KeyStation 61es, and between the 2 the X-Station has a killer keybed with aftertouch, and the M-Audio is only fair. But once again, it comes down to price. For $2000+ I EXPECT a GREAT keybed, but for less than $200 (M-Audio KeyStation) I can put up with less. I just expect that I get what I pay for, and right now the X-Station is a killer deal out there (25, 49, or 61 version), and I expect the same out of the big 3 (Triton, Motif, and Fantom...they should all have GREAT keybed, killer sounds, a lot of flexability, and they ALL should be able to interface well with the rest of the world...ie: they should trasmit both audio and midi via usb or firewire to our computers based sequencers...but now I'm getting on a nother tangent all together). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members zarquin Posted March 14, 2005 Members Share Posted March 14, 2005 the joystick vs wheels are an issue for me. I find the joysticks weird to use... I'd much rather a wheel... or 3... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jeebus Posted March 14, 2005 Members Share Posted March 14, 2005 Originally posted by eric I grew up a Roland boy and got pretty accustomed to the paddle. But I really like being able to push the mod wheel and leave it up, especially when I have it mapped to change certain parameters. You're forgetting about ribbon controllers. The Triton lets you lock the ribbon parameter to the value you last touched it at. This provides the same function as a mod wheel that isn't spring loaded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jeez Posted March 14, 2005 Members Share Posted March 14, 2005 Give me a joystick or give me death! Ok, not really... but I much prefer the Korg-style joystick. I actually don't like the feel of Roland's paddle. They're improved it over the years, but it doesn't touch Korg's Joystick. I've yet to try Novation's Pitch/Mod joystick. I can't stand pitchbend wheels. Why am I pushing the wheel away from me to bend up, when pitch increases on the keyboard to the right? Forever, Kim. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GigMan Posted March 14, 2005 Author Members Share Posted March 14, 2005 Originally posted by Jeez I can't stand pitchbend wheels. Why am I pushing the wheel away from me to bend up, when pitch increases on the keyboard to the right? Yes - I agree, you've got a great point there, dude: I guess my "best of all possible worlds" scenario would be a pitchbend stick or wheel (whatever the engineers can fit into the caes) that bends to the left and right for pitch bend + then a modulation wheel that is not spring-loaded. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tusker Posted March 14, 2005 Members Share Posted March 14, 2005 I'd like to see both. But especially ribbons. Or x-y pads. I find that joysticks are great for small wiggles, vibrato and fast, hammer-on type embellishments. Wheels are great for larger (1/2 octave, full octave) bends, slow smooth bends. Ribbons and pads are great for either. And they are better for vibrato, they can do trills and bends at the same time, etc. The problem with all these tools is that the performer typically has to choose between small articulations (e.g. vibrato) and large ones (e.g. dive bombs). With a larger interface like the Kurzweil ribbon, one can do both at the same setting. Having a combination of pitch controllers will also provide this capability albeit less elegantly. Additionally most small ribbon implementations (Yamaha and Korg) lack the resolution to be effective pitch bend controllers. Typically they go through the mod matrix (128 steps) and cannot be mapped directly to pitch bend (128 X 128 steps). This results in a grainy sound at depths greater than 2 semitones. There is some granularity at 2 semitones as well. This is a software fix, and I can't imagine it's that expensive to make. Clearly there is the issue of diminishing returns, but I think there is room for improvement in ergonomics, before that sets in. Synths have (largely) solved the problems of tone and variation. The opportunities are primarily in control and interface. Jerry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Pro Posted March 14, 2005 Members Share Posted March 14, 2005 This should be a a poll! It's a good discussion anyway, like most of Gigman's topics. I come from the days of the Minimoog so I am a hard and fast wheels guy by far, and yes I think that had some impact on my buying a Motif ES 8 (also my 9000 Pro's have the wheels), especially because my intent was to make the Motif the center of my studio. In fact my studio currently is all-Yamaha. After careful consideration I have ordered a new keyboard to compliment my Motif and 9000 Pros: a Novation X-Station 49, which features a spring-loaded joystick and a programmable X/Y pad instead of wheels. In this case I'm glad it doesn't have wheels because I want it to suppliment the control surface features I miss in the Motif, like lots of knobs, sliders and provide alternative pitch/modulation controls. I've been using the Motif ES8 as a Firewire interface and controller for Reason, which has been okay but I still have to adjust/program many parameters in Reason with a mouse because the Motif just doesn't have the knobs and sliders I need for a VA/control surface. Now with the addition of X-Station I should have the best of all worlds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mrcpro Posted March 14, 2005 Members Share Posted March 14, 2005 Like The Pro, I started on a Minimoog, and learned pitch and mod techniques with it's wheels. But I consider combination levers an improvement because you can do both at the same time easier. This is a very big part of my playing style...if it's anything other than organ or piano my Roland paddle gets used as much as the keys do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Audacity Works Posted March 14, 2005 Members Share Posted March 14, 2005 I greatly prefer joysticks to wheels. The Triton series' was my favorite. The Roland's mod travel isn't nearly long enough, and it only goes in one direction. For wheels, I like the Alesis Ion's quite a bit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Nightsynth Posted March 15, 2005 Members Share Posted March 15, 2005 I prefer wheels for sure. Particularly, as mentioned before, when you are using the mod wheel to control other things such as filter etc. I want it to stay where I put it. I will agree though that joysticks are very useful for getting swifter pitch sweeps among other feel preferences. If I had to choose though, definetly wheels. This need influenced my purchase of my main controller, the Roland A-80 which has both and I use both for different needs. I think all serious controllers should have both. The A-50, A-70, A-80, and A-90 all have this. Way to go Roland! Should have kept on with that idea for thier current controller/workstation synths.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members noisestudios Posted March 15, 2005 Members Share Posted March 15, 2005 I like having a spring loaded pitch bend and one (or two ) non-springy mod wheels so I can move them around and keep them in place. I don't like the joysticks. They feel clumsy to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kikedeolivos Posted March 15, 2005 Members Share Posted March 15, 2005 Separate wheels for me, I don't like joysticks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members coyote-1 Posted March 15, 2005 Members Share Posted March 15, 2005 I never liked Korg's joystick. But if I got a Korg, it'd probably grow on me.... I like different controllers for different functions. The QS71 has wheels and I use them a certain way. The JP8000 has a paddle and a ribbon controller and I use those in other ways. I do prefer the paddle for run-of-the-mill pitchbends. IMO it comes closest "in spirit" to the vibrato bar on my Strat, which is my fave pitchbend device of all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members urbanscallywag Posted March 15, 2005 Members Share Posted March 15, 2005 Originally posted by eric I really wish that each manufacturer would include *BOTH* the paddle and the 2 wheels... I'm with you there. I can appreciate the advantages of both. I prefer joysticks for pitch bend, but mod wheels usually work better for...modulation. So I'll take a Korg joystick and a single mod wheel, thanks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mars Saxman Posted March 15, 2005 Members Share Posted March 15, 2005 I guess my "best of all possible worlds" scenario would be a pitchbend stick or wheel (whatever the engineers can fit into the caes) that bends to the left and right for pitch bend + then a modulation wheel that is not spring-loaded. Exactly like a Nord Lead, then? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members H-BOMB!!! Posted March 15, 2005 Members Share Posted March 15, 2005 Do they make mod wheels that are spring loaded? I didn't think so. Which synths have those? The only ones I have seen are not spring loaded. Yes, I am in the same camp of wanting a joystick AND a mod wheel... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Hell Bites Posted March 16, 2005 Members Share Posted March 16, 2005 Originally posted by Jeez Give me a joystick or give me death!Ok, not really... but I much prefer the Korg-style joystick. I actually don't like the feel of Roland's paddle. They're improved it over the years, but it doesn't touch Korg's Joystick. I really like the joystick on my DW-8000 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members urbanscallywag Posted March 16, 2005 Members Share Posted March 16, 2005 Originally posted by Hell Bites I really like the joystick on my DW-8000 Yes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members aeon Posted March 16, 2005 Members Share Posted March 16, 2005 someone needs to combine the wheels from the Waldorf MicroWave XTk, the pitchstick from the Clavia Nord Leads, the touchpad from the Korg Z1, the ribbon from the Kurzweil ExpressionMate and the log controller from the Korg Prophecy! cheers, aeon Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members coyote-1 Posted March 16, 2005 Members Share Posted March 16, 2005 If you get the right combination of synths, you get 'em all... Originally posted by aeon someone needs to combine the wheels from the Waldorf MicroWave XTk, the pitchstick from the Clavia Nord Leads, the touchpad from the Korg Z1, the ribbon from the Kurzweil ExpressionMate and the log controller from the Korg Prophecy! cheers, aeon My JP8000 has the paddle and a small ribbon. My QS71 has wheels. And I have the ExpressionMate, which has its multizone ribbon AND allows each synth to control the other. Gota admit that I'd love to find a way to throw a D-beam into that mix Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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