A little good advice about chords.

[Tarv]

Originally posted by skatan I rest my case In the past i have never had a problem with anything popard and Augie doggy have ever said But now i have seen that both of you think a major seven chord can have a flat 9 This alone proves to me you guys have stopped thinking Your wrong So wrong You both have no idea about symmetry or harmony if you think a flat 9 lives on a major 7 chord Simple as that if your able to add a flat 9 to a major seven then your kidding your self. their are rules and you dont know them thing is, oh never mind

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[Poparad]

Originally posted by skatan But now i have seen that both of you think a major seven chord can have a flat 9 This alone proves to me you guys have stopped thinking Your wrong So wrong You both have no idea about symmetry or harmony if you think a flat 9 lives on a major 7 chord Simple as that if your able to add a flat 9 to a major seven then your kidding your self. their are rules and you dont know them thing is, oh never mind

Here you go:

http://www.alexandertheghost.com/upload/chorale.mp3

A quick recording of a tune that uses triads freely mixed with seventh, 9th, 11th, and 13th chords. Oh, and a maj7(b9) chord in there too. Can you guess where?

[Auggie Doggie]

Originally posted by skatan I rest my case In the past i have never had a problem with anything popard and Augie doggy have ever said But now i have seen that both of you think a major seven chord can have a flat 9 This alone proves to me you guys have stopped thinking Your wrong So wrong You both have no idea about symmetry or harmony if you think a flat 9 lives on a major 7 chord Simple as that if your able to add a flat 9 to a major seven then your kidding your self. their are rules and you dont know them thing is, oh never mind

So, how much crack do you smoke on a daily basis, and for how many years has this been the case?

[Auggie Doggie]

Originally posted by Poparad Here you go: http://www.alexandertheghost.com/upload/chorale.mp3 A quick recording of a tune that uses triads freely mixed with seventh, 9th, 11th, and 13th chords. Oh, and a maj7(b9) chord in there too. Can you guess where?

[gennation]

Originally posted by skatan Ive looked at the Holdsworth stuff, its based on symmetry, like George Russell

[bardsley]

So, you invite Auggie to see if he can add a b9 to a maj7 chord, and he said you could, but that it would sound awful. Then you criticize him for saying it could happen?
I'm playing a composition right now (well, not right now, but with an ensemble) in which a b9 is played over a maj7 chord. I don't particularly dig the sound, but it's possible.
It doesn't matter though. Any combination is possible, what you're talking about is the ways in which terms are defined in western harmony. Every theorist of Western Harmony describes triads as chords. In your opinion they're not. That's a dispute about terminology, rather than usage, and you seem to be outgunned.

On a lighter note... Collingwood TAFE? Now I'm worried that I know you, which would make this whole thing kinda funny. What style of music do you play? Do you gig?

[gennation]

Originally posted by skatan I rest my case if your able to add a flat 9 to a major seven then your kidding your self. their are rules and you dont know them thing is, oh never mind

I take it you've never heard of Ted Greene?

[lazaraga]

Originally posted by skatan I understand the overtone series and triads and how they are linked together by their common frequencies. That

[mukuzi]

Originally posted by bardsley On a lighter note... Collingwood TAFE? Now I'm worried that I know you, which would make this whole thing kinda funny. What style of music do you play? Do you gig?

 

 

I dont mind being out gunned by people who think a major seven can have a flat 9, IMO its an extended dominant MISLABLED as a major seven flat 9 or an extended major or a fourth voicing.

If your were to include every note in your list

Hers is your re-labelled chord Mr. Pop

A13#9

Gmajor13#11

Or a fourth voicing from C#

We could get a few more if we omit a few notes but as far as I can see at 8 am NZ time before a coffee these are the three chord names I would chose instead of

C major nine b9 #11 13 ( phew that

[Poparad]

Originally posted by skatan Hers is your re-labelled chord Mr. Pop A13#9 Gmajor13#11 C#13#9

 

 

 

The problem with all of these is that they will never be heard with an A, G, or C# as the root. Our ears tend to hear the lowest note of any vocing as the root, and when the chord is voiced in thirds, due to the way the overtone series is layed out (and that's an unchangable law of physics), our ears will not be able to hear a different note other than the root.

 

It could never be A13#9, because a #9, or any upper extension for that matter, will not work in the bass. That's why they're called upper extensions. The same goes for Gmaj13(#11), as C is not the #11 of the chord, and it is in the bass, which is where we hear all the higher notes in reference to. I don't see where you get C#13#9 from, as there is no E#/F in that chord.

 

 

Or a fourth voicing from C#

 

 

How can it possibly be a fourth voicing if all the notes are arranged in thirds?

 

 

C major nine b9 #11 13 ( phew that

[mukuzi]

Originally posted by Poparad I don't see where you get C#13#9 from, as there is no E#/F in that chord. How can it possibly be a fourth voicing if all the notes are arranged in thirds? It'd just call it Cmaj13(#11,#15), because that C# (the #15) will not work if it is less than two octaves away, and the '15' designation conveys that octave information about that note.

 

 

 

 

Thanks for the reply.

 

The C#13#9 is the most logical chord after the chord you gave me

Its what it leads to when the voicing is arranged in fourths IMO.

 

I have come across people using #15 and more commonly 12 as an extension. Charles Mingus (name dropping again, shucks) in his hand written scores used 12 and perhaps #15 on some chords to out line the voicing, so i guess its a way of notating a voicing in a short hand known to very few.

I dont disagree with you on this point.

 

I do however believe there is a more logical way to explain the harmonic movement of the chord . As i have said this logic is beautifully explained by George Russell or Schoenberg. it really only explains the math of what

[Neilsonite]

Ah, the old "by my definition" game... This argument is up there with the singingax days!

Skatan - any response to the lack of a semitone or tritone in a m7 chord? I'm morbidly curious...

[Poparad]

Originally posted by skatan The C#13#9 is the most logical chord after the chord you gave me Its what it leads to when the voicing is arranged in fourths IMO.

 

 

 

1) There is no E# in the chord, so it cannot possibly be any sort of C# major 7 or C# dominant 7 chord.

 

 

2) The voicing is not arranged in fourths. It is arranged in thirds.

[Poparad]

Originally posted by Neilsonite Skatan - any response to the lack of a semitone or tritone in a m7 chord? I'm morbidly curious...

 

 

 

Yes, do answer this one.

[mukuzi]

Originally posted by Neilsonite Ah, the old "by my definition" game... This argument is up there with the singingax days! Skatan - any response to the lack of a semitone or tritone in a m7 chord? I'm morbidly curious...

Singingax, that was a wile ago

A minor chord with out a tritone is a modal voicing of 1

(Eeek dives under desk hides head

[mukuzi]

Originally posted by Poparad 1) There is no E# in the chord, so it cannot possibly be any sort of C# major 7 or C# dominant 7 chord. 2) The voicing is not arranged in fourths. It is arranged in thirds.

 

 

 

granted.

 

 

sorry i dont understand the e#

[Poparad]

Originally posted by skatan granted. i think i have already explained this the E# is from the next chord, the chord i made up to explain the harmonic placement of the altered dominant i dont think u have understood most of what i have said

 

 

 

Well I'm not talking about any imaginary chords you're coming up with or revoicings or adding notes or anything. I'm talking about the specific group of notes I mentioned earlier in the specific order I placed them in. You don't seem to want to confront that question without altering it because it doesn't mesh with your harmonic thinking.

 

For someone who supposedly is into newer sounds (at the foolish point to dismissing everything 'old'), you sure don't want to try and accept the new sound of a maj7(b9) chord.

[Poparad]

Originally posted by skatan A minor chord with out a tritone is a modal voicing of 1

 

 

WTF?

 

 

 

I do however have a problem with the two minor seven flat five chords I found within

[mukuzi]

Originally posted by Poparad There are no m7b5 chords in the Giant Steps chord progession.

 

 

if you look hard enough there are

 

there are two.

 

 

i dont know what your talking about in regards to the E#

 

the two sets of notes i have are

 

CEGBDF#AC# from you

and

EFF#G#A#BC#D#

from me

 

did i typo i cant find it?

[mukuzi]

Originally posted by Poparad For someone who supposedly is into newer sounds (at the foolish point to dismissing everything 'old'), you sure don't want to try and accept the new sound of a maj7(b9) chord.

 

 

i accept it as a chord but as a dominant chord

[mukuzi]

Originally posted by skatan granted. sorry i dont understand the e#

sorry dude i have found it
i`m trying to see what the hell i have done
i didnt mean C# at all to do with your chord.
it was my chord
the chord i made up to go with the chord you gave me

[bardsley]

Nah, I wasn't at Collingwood, but I feel like I've met others who were, hence the feeling I might have met you.
I may well have bought beer from you at the Tote, but then I probably would have been underage at the time. Aah the good old days.

About the maj7b9 thing, though I still think that's probably the most useful way of labelling it - in that, as Poporad mentions your ear hears the C as the root, given the way we hear triads -, I kind of agree that in function it's going to have a dominant quality to it. In that we tend to see dominant 7th chords as the tension chord, and a cluster of of three notes semi-tones apart is big on tension. Even though it's a maj7 chord, it's hard to imagine it functioning as a harmonic goal.

Having said that, there are plenty of examples of music ending on tension chords (Beatles "Because" ending on the dim7 is the typical example that comes to mind, though many jazz tunes incorporate a lot of dissonance at the end of a tune). With a maj7b9 you can play a ii V I, yet still make it feel unresolved.
In classical theory a maj7 chord isn't used as a harmonic goal, as the interval of the maj7 is considered to dissonant to be considered a resolution. Nowdays, it's barely noticed, though the interval still sounds dissonant when taken out of context.

[mukuzi]

Originally posted by bardsley Nah, I wasn't at Collingwood, but I feel like I've met others who were, hence the feeling I might have met you. I may well have bought beer from you at the Tote, but then I probably would have been underage at the time. Aah the good old days. About the maj7b9 thing, though I still think that's probably the most useful way of labelling it - in that, as Poporad mentions your ear hears the C as the root, given the way we hear triads -, I kind of agree that in function it's going to have a dominant quality to it. In that we tend to see dominant 7th chords as the tension chord, and a cluster of of three notes semi-tones apart is big on tension. Even though it's a maj7 chord, it's hard to imagine it functioning as a harmonic goal.

 

 

Sweet , if we have met I would have raved about theory over a pool game.

I agree, although it took a while for me to see what was happening with the example given by popard. Excellent example BTW mr.pop

 

In summery I would say its voiced name is major b9 (shudder) where as the function is (for me anyway) dominant

I always look at chords as there function not as the voice, I would have a hard time voicing an 8 note chord any way, unless I was doing big band scores of Stravinsky for my community meetings.

I guess I have such a hard time getting all this theory on the gat maybe because I don

[Poparad]

I've had my fill of this discussion. You keep presenting theories that either completley don't work in the real world or have many gapping holes, which you never seem to answer. All your replies are so scatterbrained it's hard to make sense of anything you're saying.

I believe that you are very misunderstood about triads (which are chords) and their nature and function in Western tonal music, and I don't believe you really understand the music of Holdsworth or the theory of George Russell (I've studied both, and what you say about them doesn't mesh with the reality of their music/theory).

You can continue to believe those if you wish, but I haven't heard one thing in all this discussion that would make me think otherwise. This dicussion is reaching the point where it's too strayed from the original topic, which was never resolved, and has begun to recycle the same phrases and unrebuked arguments, so I don't feel like continuing something that will not ever be resolved.

[red|dragon]

stfu skatan

boys and girls who are reading, listen to Poparad.

it isnt that what skatan is saying is confusing or complicated, its just that its plain incorrect.

if you are into that sudo zen master crap check out the real master then - pat martino

"My relationship with my guitar is indeed spiritual."