A little good advice about chords.

[Poparad]

Originally posted by skatan i respect your opinion popard i like to think of less names, less keys and less hastle. i say no to old harmonic ideas and say yes to george russell and arnold shoenberg i`m not sure what george and arnold think about the humble triad havent we moved on from 500 years ago

 

 

Schoenberg wrote one of the most in depth and thorough books on theory during the 1900's, and he certainly saw the importance of traidic harmony to fill over half the book with it.

 

Seventh chord harmony and extended tertian harmony are valuable and important aspects of music to study (I'm a professional jazz musician, so this is certainly a part of music I'm very familiar with), but in order to understand where they come from and how they function, the study of triadic harmony is vital.

 

While we have added to the harmonic language in the past 150 years to the point of serialized atonality with schoenberg, we have not abandoned tertian harmony by any means. In every style of music outside of modern classical music, tertian harmony is still the dominant language without any signs of fading. Even in modern classical/art music, styles are returning to a use of traditional harmony and tonality in addition to the harmonic advents of the 20th century.

[dastardlydrvish]

Originally posted by skatan i respect your opinion popard i like to think of less names, less keys and less hastle. i say no to old harmonic ideas and say yes to george russell and arnold shoenberg i`m not sure what george and arnold think about the humble triad havent we moved on from 500 years ago

 

 

Ignorance is not the same thing as progressive thought; you have to have an accurate idea of where the foundations lie in order to build on them.

[bardsley]

Originally posted by skatan Hey guys thanks for all the replies I would have thort harmonic function needs a tritone or a semitone to decipher context other wise were looking at a bunch of triads with no concrete harmonic home or context.

 

 

Wait....

Is that seriously what you think?

Play a C triad. Then an Am triad. Then a Dm triad. Then a Gmaj triad.

Now play that Cmaj triad again. Does that have no harmonic home or context to you?

Now sure, changing the G to a G7 adds to the feeling of C major as the harmonic goal, and it was fairly quickly taken up by composers, however it is by no means necessary.

[lazaraga]

Originally posted by skatan i respect your opinion popard i like to think of less names, less keys and less hastle. i say no to old harmonic ideas and say yes to george russell and arnold shoenberg i`m not sure what george and arnold think about the humble triad havent we moved on from 500 years ago

 

 

what do you think of the overtone series?

what do you think of the fact that the basic major triad is spelled out in the beginning of the overtone series?

 

peace

[gennation]

Originally posted by Paragraph51 Let's not over intellectualize the process now, OK?

Actually, now that yuo've seen everyone "over intellectualize" it...going to my site would've been easier

http://lessons.mikedodge.com/lessons/MusicTheory/ChdCon/ChdConTOC.htm

At least it would be the information in a organized/structured path to learning it.

As far as triads not being chords? Have you heard the term "chord extensions", "Extended chords", etc...four note and above chords are extentions of either the Major or the Minor (and even symmetrical) CHORDS.

[mukuzi]

Originally posted by lazaraga what do you think of the overtone series? what do you think of the fact that the basic major triad is spelled out in the beginning of the overtone series? peace

 

 

I understand the overtone series and triads and how they are linked together by their common frequencies. That

[mukuzi]

Originally posted by bardsley Wait.... Is that seriously what you think? Play a C triad. Then an Am triad. Then a Dm triad. Then a Gmaj triad. Now play that Cmaj triad again. Does that have no harmonic home or context to you? Now sure, changing the G to a G7 adds to the feeling of C major as the harmonic goal, and it was fairly quickly taken up by composers, however it is by no means necessary.

 

 

its called modal harmony, its all one chord.

i recomend the book "one chord wonders" it looks at modal harmony

[gennation]

A chord doesn't NEED tension. A chord needs Harmony...if that harmony build tension, so be it. But harmony is where chords live and breathe.

I see what you're saying about more notes in it maybe spelling out better a key or a particular scale that that chord came from. Obviously having more notes in your chords give you a better clue scale-wise.

Like an extended 13 chord will show you all the notes in a diatonic scale it came from.

But again...you need something to extend...those little 3 note triads/chords fill that bill nicely.

But plain chords, your triads, along with a melody spell out quite a bit too...that's due to the harmony it creates against the chords...and it doesn't have anything to do with tension.

[mukuzi]

Originally posted by gennation A chord doesn't NEED tension. A chord needs Harmony...if that harmony build tension, so be it. But harmony is where chords live and breathe. But plain chords, your triads, along with a melody spell out quite a bit too...that's due to the harmony it creates against the chords...and it doesn't have anything to do with tension.

 

 

im with you dude, but i say a triad dosent have harmony as such with out a destination, a chord has a destination a triad is just a small part of a chord.

 

if i`m wrong as many of think i am the question is what is a triad and what is the diference between a chord and a triad

[gennation]

Originally posted by skatan im with you dude, but i say a triad dosent have harmony as such with out a destination, a chord has a destination a triad is just a small part of a chord. if i`m wrong as many of think i am the question is what is a triad and what is the diference between a chord and a triad

 

 

Well, I think you can step back to real basics...Families.

 

Chord Families - Major and Minor

 

Extended Families - Major, Minor, and Dominant

 

whether you're talk sus, aug, dim, add, OR extended...it all starts with those two basic chord families...Major and Minor.

 

The other chords need some reference to those to be "anything".

 

You could also argue it's just Interval groupings and chord formula's, based in Intervals, that determine a chord...well some of the most basic chords are triads. The diad is pure Intervals, or a fragment of the basic chord/triad.

 

But those groupings still create "chords".

 

No ones saying you wrong or you don't know what you're talking about. Take for instance someone like Allan Holdsworth who disregards everything everyone else uses and comes up with his own symbols for chords, his own scales, etc...

 

I myself have some quirky ideas of how things go together...but I still use the basic theory concepts, terms, lingo, etc...to convey my ideas.

 

Think however you want, but theory is nothing more than a way to communicate musical ideas to each other and to yourself. So, it helps to stay within the lines...even though your outcome would be to pull someone out of those lines. Got to give them a path, you know.

[mukuzi]

Originally posted by gennation Allan Holdsworth who disregards everything everyone else uses and comes up with his own symbols for chords, his own scales, etc...

AH has used the lydian cromatic concept to come up with his ideas, if you use the six scales george has given us, the major and diminished you have AH scales. i for one like what AH has done with his theory but i find the lydian cromatic concept to be the most logical.
the major just stays the major, thats it, all we need to know about the major we allready know.
its the extended harmony mal bay cant explain using modes. the major modes etc only explain what most people call classical music of the 19th century. simply extending the definitions only causes confusion.
i believe we get rid of abou 60% of the names of chords and break them down beond enharmonics. like what alan H has done.
like a major chord and its extensions
a minor chord and its extensions
a dominant and its extensions. all we have left are tha Dim and Aug chords or triads.

a dominant chord in any voicing will contain many other chord names but in my opinion its still a dominant.

[gennation]

Originally posted by skatan AH has used the lydian cromatic concept to come up with his ideas, if you use the six scales george has given us, the major and diminished you have AH scales. i for one like what AH has done with his theory but i find the lydian cromatic concept to be the most logical. the major just stays the major, thats it, all we need to know about the major we allready know. its the extended harmony mal bay cant explain using modes. the major modes etc only explain what most people call classical music of the 19th century. simply extending the definitions only causes confusion. i believe we get rid of abou 60% of the names of chords and break them down beond enharmonics. like what alan H has done. like a major chord and its extensions a minor chord and its extensions a dominant and its extensions. all we have left are tha Dim and Aug chords or triads. a dominant chord in any voicing will contain many other chord names but in my opinion its still a dominant.

I don't really see where AH has adopted Russels stuff. AH takes a bunch of dots on the fretboard and says "here's the lowest note, and here's the highest note...and I can use ANY one of these notes in ANY order to get from here to there".

Russel starts out with straight theory then says we'll now play Lydian instead of Ionian for our major chords. But, again he starts with the straight up theory lingo to pull you out of the lines.

Theories are theories and with no point of reference they may not be anyones theories but your own.

That's why it's hard for someone like AH to explain what he does...he doesn't speak the same lingo as others...so he has no point of reference except to say "this is the way I do it"...in no relation to how others do it, or understand it.

We're a little off track now I think

[mukuzi]

hey mate thanks for the convo.

AH scales are the same as GR believe me
GR says the point of refrence shifts from what we think as the "one" to what we know as the "four"
if we look at any progresion like this we substitute four for one. but when you understand what george is trying to say you realise the shift makes perfect sence. shoenberg has the regions and george has the cycle of close to distant relationships, there the same
AH has just taken it back to the "one" in sted of the four. thats why their are no resolutions and his harmony is dominant. i think the same way but george has made is so logical it would be a crime to ignore what he has said about progresions and harmony. i spent 9 years studing georges book untill it made sence, and once it does you will be able to look at any progresion of any so called chords and see the internal logic.

[Poparad]

Originally posted by skatan AH has just taken it back to the "one" in sted of the four.

 

 

That describes just about everyone in the history of improvised music for the past 100 years, before and long after George Russel wrote that book.

 

 

 

thats why their are no resolutions and his harmony is dominant.

 

 

 

There are plenty of resolutions in Holdsworth's music. He is masterful at crafting a phrase with a chord progression using tension and release. Also, his harmony is not all dominant. He uses dominant chords in the same proportion to other types of harmonies as just about all of his peers in the modern jazz and electric fusion scene.

[Poparad]

Originally posted by skatan if i`m wrong as many of think i am the question is what is a triad and what is the diference between a chord and a triad

 

 

 

They aren't seperate things.

 

A chord is a group of three or more notes arranged in thirds sounded together.

 

 

Here are the types of chords found in traditional Western music, from smallest to largest:

 

Triad

Seventh Chord

Ninth Chord

Eleventh Chord

Thirteenth Chord

 

 

 

A triad is just another type of chord.

[mukuzi]

Originally posted by Poparad That describes just about everyone in the history of improvised music for the past 100 years, before and long after George Russel wrote that book. There are plenty of resolutions in Holdsworth's music. He is masterful at crafting a phrase with a chord progression using tension and release. Also, his harmony is not all dominant. He uses dominant chords in the same proportion to other types of harmonies as just about all of his peers in the modern jazz and electric fusion scene.

 

 

i`m not sure you understand me popard.

 

have you read the lydian cromatic concept?

[Poparad]

Originally posted by skatan i`m not sure you understand me popard. have you read the lydian cromatic concept?

 

 

Yes, I have. I have the book on my shelf next to me. It's a good book, and I understand his theory and agree with a lot of it, but I understand it well enough without having to relearn all of my scales based around the lydian mode.

[GorillaLover]

Originally posted by skatan i respect your opinion popard i like to think of less names, less keys and less hastle. i say no to old harmonic ideas and say yes to george russell and arnold shoenberg i`m not sure what george and arnold think about the humble triad havent we moved on from 500 years ago

 

 

I just wanted to share with you that I thought it possible that you may be promoting "triads are not chords" as a joke.

 

I hope it's a joke...

 

Otherwise maybe you should think more about the music rather than promoting misinformation that you somehow believed from another source?

 

I hope I don't sound like an asshole.

[mukuzi]

Originally posted by GorillaLover I just wanted to share with you that I thought it possible that you may be promoting "triads are not chords" as a joke.

 

 

It is the way I like to look at chords, i`m not trolling the lesson loft.

 

I look at groups of intervals and give each group a name. I believe one needs only a few definitions to navigate the intervallic system.

I dont name two note "chords"

I call three note groups that consist of a first, third and fifth a triad.

Once the seventh is involved I call the group a

[gennation]

So how do you differentiate from Major or Minor then...as Major and Minor Triads?, Major and Minor Chords?

So, and what about Major and Minor "Chords"? Do they exist in your comprehension?

Because in my comprehension, Major and Minor Chords exist long before any extensions or additional are tacked on.

[Auggie Doggie]

Originally posted by skatan I dont name two note "chords" That's good. I call three note groups that consist of a first, third and fifth a triad. A triad IS a chord. All triads are chords, but not all chords are triads. Once the seventh is involved I call the group a

[mukuzi]

i have never encountered such hostility from the lesson loft before



from AG "A triad IS a chord. All triads are chords, but not all chords are triads."

your making sence there buddy.

I`m not interested in what most historians say about the evolution of western music theory.
In George Russell

[Auggie Doggie]

Originally posted by skatan i have never encountered such hostility from the lesson loft before Hostility? The only hostility is coming from you. Those of us who are pointing out the error of your ways are trying to do so as nicely as possible. from AG "A triad IS a chord. All triads are chords, but not all chords are triads." your making sence there buddy. Would you care to do dispute what I said? I`m not interested in what most historians say about the evolution of western music theory. Obviously. You're also not interested in what the finest theoreticians, musicians, and composers have said about it either. In George Russell

[GorillaLover]

Originally posted by skatan It is the way I like to look at chords, i`m not trolling the lesson loft.

 

 

 

Originally posted by skatan i wish people would stop saying 1 3 5 is a chord its a triad!! 1 3 7 is a chord when you know about chords you will know i`m right about this

 

 

 

You are a dumb man.

 

Don't argue with me. You are a dumb man. Accept this.

 

I could make another point, but it's so obvious that I'm just going to tell you that you are dumb once more before hitting "Submit".

 

You are a dumb man.

[mukuzi]

""Q: your making sence there buddy.

Would you care to do dispute what I said?""

hello i agree with you.

anyway
I dont need your help as I know modes pretty well. You guys excel at explaining very simple harmony to beginners but when someone comes along with something your not failure with you dont know how to handle it.
Your saying: George Russell has no relevance so Arnold Schoenberg must have none also by your flawed logic. as the regions and the close to distant relationships are the same idea.
You are so hung up on making every chord fit into an imaginary context your forgetting the basic building blocks of harmony. A triad doesn