Members gennation Posted July 22, 2007 Members Share Posted July 22, 2007 Here's three nice breakdown for turning it into a "flowing" progression...(there more ways but I'm only dealing with these three right now, more later)... ----------------------------------- Concept 1: You can take a standard I-vi-ii-V progression and approach each chord with a dim7 chord a half-step below. (tread lightly with the V though). So, ||: Fmaj7 | Dm7 | Gm7 | C7 :|| becomes... ||: Fmaj7 Dbdim7 | Dm7 F#dim7 | Gm7 C#9 | C7 Edim7 :|| The last chord of each measure falls on beat "4", approaching beat "1". Notice I approached each chord with a dim7 chord a half-step below the destination chord, except for the C7 with a approached a half-step above with a Dominant chord. Remember to use any of the enharmonic dim7 chords too. One simple way to use them is, approach each new chord with a dim7 a Whole-step above it, like... ||: Fmaj7 Edim7 | Dm7 Adim7 | Gm7 Bbm7 | C7 Gdim7 :|| Again, the last chord of each measure falls on beat "4", approaching beat "1". Notice I approached each chord with a dim7 chord a whole-step above the destination chord, except for the C7, which this time I approached it with a Minor chord a whole-step below. Simple but VERY full sounding to the cliche' I-vi-ii-V progression. Play them all as one.. ||: Fmaj7 | Dm7 | Gm7 | C7 | Fmaj7 Dbdim7 | Dm7 F#dim7 | Gm7 C#9 | C7 Edim7 | Fmaj7 Edim7 | Dm7 Adim7 | Gm7 Bbm7 | C7 Gdim7 :|| ------------------------------------------ Concept 2: You can also approach each of the chords in a I-vi-ii-V progression with Dom7 chords too. For dom7, you can take a standard I-vi-ii-V progression and approach each chord with a dom7 chord a half-step above. So, ||: Fmaj7 | Dm7 | Gm7 | C7 :|| becomes... ||: Fmaj7 Eb7 | Dm7 Ab7 | Gm7 C#7 | C7 F#7 :|| The last chord of each measure falls on beat "4", approaching beat "1". Notice I approached each chord with a dom7 chord a half-step above the destination chord. -------------------------------------------------- Concept 3: Mix the two concepts above together and you can play this simple progression for a while with no repeats! Together you can get a new chord for beats 3 & 4 of the measure: ||: Fmaj7 Eb7 Dbdim7 | Dm7 Adim7 Ab7 | Gm7 Bbm7 Bdim7 | C7 F#7 Edim7 :|| Use any combination. ---------------------------------------------------- Hope that makes sense because if it does, it can cause hours of fun playing all the possibilities/combinations. (and I haven't even started explaining the scale concepts that go with this ) Enjoy!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members black cobra Posted July 22, 2007 Members Share Posted July 22, 2007 None of these concepts, if used, will result in anything resembling music. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stackabones Posted July 22, 2007 Members Share Posted July 22, 2007 None of these concepts, if used, will result in anything resembling music.*Great post, gennation!I think it was in Los Lobos interview where Cesar Rosas called these the "ice cream changes." BTW, the B section of the Rhythm Changes is essentially a I-vi-ii-V with a few subs. The I is subbed for a III7 and all the chords are dom7, so in F ... A7 - D7 - G7 - C7 (III7 - VI7 - II7 - V7). But you prolly already knew that. I know many players think of that section in terms of secondary dominants, but it also works for me to think of them in other ways! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blumonk Posted July 22, 2007 Members Share Posted July 22, 2007 Too much reading involved. If you guys want the same concepts go buy Joe Pass's Solo Jazz Guitar DVD. Teaches you the same thing + a lot more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gennation Posted July 22, 2007 Author Members Share Posted July 22, 2007 Too much reading involved.If you guys want the same concepts go buy Joe Pass's Solo Jazz Guitar DVD. Teaches you the same thing + a lot more. Actually Joe's DVD doesn't teach dealing wth the progression this way. I did a write up on those concepts here (since search isn't working): http://gennation.jconserv.net/viewtopic.php?t=45 Both what Joe teaches and what I show in both this and at that link are general musical concepts that Joe and everyone else learns. Doesn't mean everyone knows them though...hence the reason I posted this. But this particular thread isn't what's in the Solo Jazz Guitar DVD. So, check it out blu. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dsimon665 Posted July 22, 2007 Members Share Posted July 22, 2007 looks cool - I'm still trying to figure out those progressions using one scale ...but from a theory standpoint those two concepts seem similar to adding secondary dominants before each chord...like adding leading or neighbor tones before changing to the primary chords.Concept two seems like tritone sub of a secondary dominant...and I think concept one could be arrived at in a similar manner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members astring Posted July 22, 2007 Members Share Posted July 22, 2007 thanks for the work Gen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blumonk Posted July 22, 2007 Members Share Posted July 22, 2007 looks cool - I'm still trying to figure out those progressions using one scale ...but from a theory standpoint those two concepts seem similar to adding secondary dominants before each chord...like adding leading or neighbor tones before changing to the primary chords. Concept two seems like tritone sub of a secondary dominant...and I think concept one could be arrived at in a similar manner. Try 2 scales. It's a lot easier. The I and the vi are the same. They are major so use the major scale. The ii and the V are the same, minor. So use a minor scale. Same sounds for the chords. Don't let all the added color tones make you think it is actually more complicated than it should be. Major to minor. Major to minor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members warriorxtman Posted July 22, 2007 Members Share Posted July 22, 2007 Can't follow if I don't even know what I-vi-ii-V is. Start from there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gennation Posted July 22, 2007 Author Members Share Posted July 22, 2007 The next step would be changing the function of the m7 chords (this is Pass' realm, and the subject of that other link). But, when doing so the progression isn't a as friendly to concepts 1 & 2. You can change Dm7 to D7 and Gm7 to G7, but you will notice very quickly that Concepts 1 & 2 start to sound a little funky. After changing the function the progression would be... ||: Fmaj7 | D7 | G7 | C7 :|| But, using Concept 3 still sounds pretty tight... ||: Fmaj7 Eb9 | D7 Ab7 | G7 C#9 | C7 F#7 :|| This is where application takes over. In the 3 concepts I laid out they fit nicely together but really fit best against a Ballad. You'll see that once you start changing the function that the "Ballad sound" pretty much goes out the window and you start getting into a Standards, or Jazz, sound...and Concepts 1 & 2 lose their effect real quick. One thing you can do is only change the function of Dm7 to D7 leaving Gm7 alone...this will have a familiar Jazz sound but will also leave the Ballad sound intact... ||: Fmaj7 Eb9 | D7 Ab7 | Gm7 C#9 | C7 F#7 :|| So, the application of this little tutorial is really for Ballads. The other link I posted deals with more Jazz Standards and Bop turnarounds. I'll throw some "scale" approaches out in a bit. But, until then "arpeggiate" the crap out of these chords. Arpeggio's will get you farther than "scales" will with this progression. Although, there are a few cool "scale" concepts, but the strength is in the arps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gennation Posted July 22, 2007 Author Members Share Posted July 22, 2007 Can't follow if I don't even know what I-vi-ii-V is. Start from there.This might help: http://gennation.jconserv.net/viewtopic.php?p=120#120Nice avatar...need closeup Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Virgman Posted July 22, 2007 Members Share Posted July 22, 2007 It's a tough crowd. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blumonk Posted July 23, 2007 Members Share Posted July 23, 2007 Let's have a contest and see how many jazz standards you guys can list that have I vi ii V progressions in them! GO! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jawbreakerr Posted July 23, 2007 Members Share Posted July 23, 2007 darn trolls. always tryin to stir {censored} up! great stuff genn.. i have your whole website printed out and put in a binder. haha... i havent used it TOOO much. but if i ever wanna just sit and read something. i can open it up. makes my brain do some work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stackabones Posted July 23, 2007 Members Share Posted July 23, 2007 Let's have a contest and see how many jazz standards you guys can list that have I vi ii V progressions in them! GO! Same list as the rhythm changes! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Knottyhed Posted July 23, 2007 Members Share Posted July 23, 2007 None of these concepts, if used, will result in anything resembling music.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jawbreakerr Posted July 23, 2007 Members Share Posted July 23, 2007 :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: i remember calling thsi guy on in a thread for being a troll, and they told me to play nice.. i know a troll when i see one. and every single post that black cobra makes is just, illogical. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Knottyhed Posted July 23, 2007 Members Share Posted July 23, 2007 i remember calling thsi guy on in a thread for being a troll, and they told me to play nice.. i know a troll when i see one. and every single post that black cobra makes is just, illogical. I initially tried to post alot more rolling eyes, but the forum came back with a message telling me that 99 rolling eye images exceeded my maximum of 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gennation Posted July 23, 2007 Author Members Share Posted July 23, 2007 i remember calling thsi guy on in a thread for being a troll, and they told me to play nice.. i know a troll when i see one. and every single post that black cobra makes is just, illogical. Some days I wish I would've taken the Mod job I'm pretty sure black cobra = blumonk = red|dragonI have 4 kids at home so a lot of the "kid" stuff rolls right off. But, why someone hangs out at a Lesson forum to neither teach nor learn is beyond me. There one in every crowd though I guess, we just happen to get the 3 for 1 special I'll come back with some solo/scale/arp lines that go good with this progression in a bit, I'm at work right now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jawbreakerr Posted July 23, 2007 Members Share Posted July 23, 2007 i think our collective unconsciousness created blumonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Virgman Posted July 23, 2007 Members Share Posted July 23, 2007 Who is that masked man? Some call him Blumonk. Others call him Red Dragon. And to his enemies he is known as the Black Cobra... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Knottyhed Posted July 24, 2007 Members Share Posted July 24, 2007 Blumonk and Red|Dragon are definately one and the same... I'd bet the farm on it. Not so sure about Black Cobra. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dubb Posted July 24, 2007 Members Share Posted July 24, 2007 Not so sure about Black Cobra.Me either, I hardly see why even a troll would want to use two separate accounts simultaneously to make obnoxious posts in the same thread. Black Cobra must be r|d's dark jedi padawan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members black cobra Posted July 24, 2007 Members Share Posted July 24, 2007 Unfortunately, instead of coming up with your own ideas and progressions, many students are simply getting them out of a book. I was at that stage once, you must grow out of it. Preceding a chord with its tritone sub or a dim chord, or its own V chord does not sound especially good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blumonk Posted July 24, 2007 Members Share Posted July 24, 2007 I think our friend black cobra hit the head on the nail. I could not agree more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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