Why are people slow with theory?

[Li Shenron]

Maybe I'm wrong, but it seems to me that people keep asking the same questions when it comes to theory. Or perhaps they are always different people...

 

I kind of think that the main CONCEPTS of theory are but a few. Chords, scales, keys, modes, progressions, standard notation, circle of fifths, and how these things relate to each other. I guess there is more concepts when you start studying compositions, particularly jazz, but with just those main basic concepts you can go a very long way...

 

What I mean is, understanding those few concepts is not hard. The hard part is learning to apply them, which requires time and practice, and learning to "answer a question" quickly (such as: what chords exist in this key? what scales can I use safely over this chord?).

 

But I do get the impression that people keep asking about the basics over and over... is this because the approach to teach them is not so good?

[Knottyhed]

Because it is a stage that most people (who aren't proffessionally taught from day one) go through. I know I asked all those questions once, I'm sure you did too.

[Li Shenron]

Of course I was there too...

But I wonder, because my first teacher used to introduce me gradually into for example chords and scales. Gradually meaning one chord type at a time, one scale at a time, one mode at a time... That seems good for applying them, because if you put too many into someone's brain at once, it will be impossible to get something out of them.

But also, in those early years, I learned to apply them without understanding the concepts underneath. I had to stop watching stuff like it was a set of 1000 separate tools, and think more about the principles that tie them together.

It's not so hard. Why not doing that since the start?

[ripton]

just my 2 cents....but i think the same questions are asked a million times because most people think there is some SECRET thats not being told. I know a little theory, and ive asked these questions...so maybe im speaking personally, but thats where most of it comes from. People want results fast and not willing to take the time thats needed to apply what they have learned.

 

I also think it has a lot to do with over thinking, and being overwhelmed with everything there is to learn, and not being able to focus, because i lot of people think theory is boring and just want to know how to put everything together to make it sound great.

[Knottyhed]

I think the majority of people don't have a proffessional guitar teacher, and if they do, they probably have a crap guitar teacher.

Alot of beginners don't even seek out a teacher because their uncle/friend/local village idiot (who knows nothing about guitar or music) told them that if you get a teacher you'll instantly become incapable of being original and creative.

The path of progression for most is

1.) Learn a few songs and chords and a pentatonic pattern from uncle/friend/local village idiot.
2.) Try and string them together to make your own stuff and work out songs from your CD collection
3.) Realise you suck and start looking for more things to learn

Alot of people never progress past point 2. Those that do start asking questions like, "how come I can't break out the box when I'm soloing?", "how do I change my chord progression to a different key?", "what's with these modes Steve Vai keeps going on a about - are they the reason I suck and he doesn't?"

Some of those people will turn to a book, some will turn to google, some of will join a forum and ask... some will do all 3! Obviously in an ideal world everyone would have a teacher who had a clear plan laid out for teaching you everything you need to know, but most people dont

[Li Shenron]

I also think it has a lot to do with over thinking, and being overwhelmed with everything there is to learn...

 

 

This is maybe the key of the problem. When I started with music, I was presented with a near-infinite set of chords and scales ahead of me. As long as people see theory like that, no wonder it generates frustration and the feeling that you're never good enough to start playing!

[Knottyhed]

just my 2 cents....but i think the same questions are asked a million times because most people think there is some SECRET thats not being told.

 

 

Oh yeh, we've all been their too. Trawling the internet, poring over interviews of your favourite guitarists, just searching for that one nugget of knowledge that'll instantly turn you into an amazing player...

[gennation]

The Internet has become the "ask and you shall receive" place to go.

 

Back in the days, even before tab, there was nothing but books, teachers, and A LOT of listening.

 

Because of the dynamics at which you can approach the Internet people ask only the question they think needs to be answered. It's "selective learning".

 

Years ago when you had a book and did "selective learning" (which meant starting at Chapter 10 or something) you realized real quick that you had to start back at the beginning of the book if you even wanted to understand the lingo the writer was using.

 

With the Internet, you ask the question, you get MANY answers that come from the direction of the answerer, regardless of where the askers knowledge is.

 

Then the asker gets overwhelmed with all this other information and get the "Internet head spins". The asker is then either inspired, discouraged, neglects the answers based on them not directly answering his question, or is too ignorant to realize their question was answered completely.

 

This is one of the main reasons I made my Beginners to Advanced Series (and why I promote as much as I do). People need some place they can go where someone holds their hand and walks them up the mountain one step at a time. Secondly, I got sick of typing all the same information out to a new person every week. So, it's a win-win situation.

 

But again, theory is the understanding of music...music itself is a whole other story. (That's the big secret)

[jonfinn]

I think there are a of of reasons, although my impression is that it's not a few people asking the same questions. Rather, it's many people asking the same questions over and over. I think it's awesome that people are asking!

 

Because our resources evolve, so do our ways of learning. It's my belief that there are many ways to access the same path, but at some point (usually after much resistance and protest) most will accept the "no shortcuts" paradigm and get to work.

 

I also think the squeakiest wheels aren't the ones practicing diligently!

[tomc]

My

crappy teacher

never talks about theory.
Well once he wrote out the circle of 5ths for me. I think it's because he has a lot of young students who aren't interested or who he thinks aren't interested so he just transcribes music for us. He's university trained so I'm sure he knows theory quite well. But he just appears bored and dissapointed with his young students and their music.

But I'm an engineer. Theory is interesting to me. So I have to ask questions here or search through the web. Luckily I've found or been directed to a few pretty good sources. Now I understand a fair bit of the theory, applying it is something else entirely.

[Knottyhed]

My never talks about theory. Well once he wrote out the circle of 5ths for me. I think it's because he has a lot of young students who aren't interested or who he thinks aren't interested so he just transcribes music for us. He's university trained so I'm sure he knows theory quite well. But he just appears bored and dissapointed with his young students and their music. But I'm an engineer. Theory is interesting to me. So I have to ask questions here or search through the web. Luckily I've found or been directed to a few pretty good sources. Now I understand a fair bit of the theory, applying it is something else entirely.

 

 

Have you told him your interested? He might be grateful to have a serious student he can teach properly... to be honest 90% of the people who seek guitar lessons aren't interested in anything more than learning some cool riffs to wow their mates with. Maybe he's been teaching so much and for so long he's just kinda lost the will to teach?

 

If he really won't do anything other than transcribe songs for you, then I'd just stop going. You'll save yourself alot of money if you just buy a tab book.

[Knottyhed]

but at some point (usually after much resistance and protest) most will accept the "no shortcuts" paradigm and get to work.

Or bemoan their lack of talent whilst telling everyone that knuckles down to several hours practice every day that they're very lucky to be so talented

[sumpm1]

Knottyhed has a point that people want results with little work. I swear though, every time I turn around, I meet someone else that plays guitar. I am starting to think that half the population plays the freaking guitar! I have alot of friends that are into acoustic or electric and they have questions for me. I would consider myself a lifelong student of music, and I have alot of patience. When I try to explain ANY theory, it goes right over their heads. They are not ready to LEARN! You say that these basics of theory are easy, and I agree. But not everyone has the same interests, patience, or intellectual capacity for learning such things. I think people mainly just want to be "cool" and that is why they play, not for a love of learning. I want to learn, otherwise it is the same old stuff. You also mentioned that you have a "teacher." I don't know if you are going to college for music or taking lessons. But I am a college student. And when you look at the students that are bound for college, or are currently in college, they primarily were students who at least had some capacity for learning, and developed some study habits. These skill go a long way when music education is involved.

[Li Shenron]

Or bemoan their lack of talent whilst telling everyone that knuckles down to several hours practice every day that they're very lucky to be so talented

Or also do the opposite and starts blaming on the fact that they cannot afford to practice 18 hours a day minimum, and telling everyone on the internet that if they don't do so they'll be forever stuck playing "mary had a little lamb" all their lives.

Personally I still believe that the most common reason to quit playing is falling into the trap of looking at the 1000000 things you CAN learn in music, thinking you MUST learn them all, and give up before seriously trying the first 10.

[gennation]

While many people lack the ear, musical inclination, talent, etc...they look to theory to give them the answer (whether it's a quicky on the Internet or a full blown class). While others look at it as the "theory of the music they ALREADY play".

 

That's the point when you have a better chance of supplementing your music with theories. And, for most in this boat it's theories of their OWN PLAYING.

 

If you look at all the great musicians over time ala Coltrane, Davis, Pass, Page, Hendrix, and others...they all had influences, they learned the theory (or moves if you will) of their influences but seemed to see those as little "playing pictures", and as time went on they developed somethings on their own that took them beyond any influences or the influences theories and moves. Like they aded new colors and pictures to those orignal little pictures, until they had a new picture of their own.

 

This is the player they became to be and eventually it comes down to their own theories, whether it be songs, style, attitude, etc...it all boils down to theory that's worlds beyond standard class room theory. That's the fundamental, the person is the vehicle for discovering new things with that fundamental.

 

I equate it to a forward thinking electronics engineer. Sure everyone can take the class together, but there are going to be few that would ever take things passed what they learn and actually develop/create something themselves as opposed to working on things that have already been invented.

 

IOW, there's got to be something there to start if you are ever going to take that theory and actually ever be able to do anything with it.

 

Theory itself doesn't create new music, but a musician who can figure out themselves theory-wise can keep evolving their theories, playing, and music.

[Random11]

the reason people are slow at theory is because this is america. there are alot of people that are lazy here and theory isnt just a walk in the park. i mean i dont know thats just the way i see it. {censored} aint easy.

[Jasco]

I don't understand why people think music theory is difficult. The concepts are no more difficult than grade-school math. Years ago when I first started playing I checked a music theory book out of the library, read it, and started applying the concepts to my fretboard. It seemed fairly straightforward as well as enlightening.

[Knottyhed]

I don't understand why people think music theory is difficult. The concepts are no more difficult than grade-school math.

Lots of people think grade school math is difficult too

[Knottyhed]

Thinking about it, I'd say the 'problem' is partly that the guitar has a certain cool factor that just isn't there for say, the french horn or piano. People don't neccessarily take up guitar for the love of music, they take it up cos they want to play rock star (that's probably why I started too LOL). Actual study of fairly cerebral concepts like music theory just isn't all that cool I guess. Those that end up taking guitar more seriously eventually end up asking the questions I suppose.

The second problem is that electric and steel string acoustic guitar don't have such an established pedagogy, if I were to look through the Yellow Pages and look for a violin teacher, I could expect that teacher would know theory, know how to read and would no doubt want to teach those things. Look for an electric guitar teacher and you'd probably struggle to find a teacher like that.

In other words, not many guitarists want to learn theory and those that do haven't been taught any.

[sumpm1]

. People don't neccessarily take up guitar for the love of music, they take it up cos they want to play rock star (that's probably why I started too LOL).

 

 

Yeah, I meet alot of people that say they play the guitar, and they want to be good at it. They never said they wanted to be great students of music. I think they just want to impress a few people. But learning can be work. So you have to find some work that you like!

[Knottyhed]

Yeah, I meet alot of people that say they play the guitar, and they want to be good at it. They never said they wanted to be great students of music. I think they just want to impress a few people. But learning can be work. So you have to find some work that you like!

 

 

I think most people have a vague motivation for taking up guitar, when I started it was just cos I liked music and thought it was a cool thing to do... this is probably most people's experience. I think for some people it never becomes anything more than that, but for others it develops and changes the way you think about and listen to music - and that inevitably leads to alot of questions.

[willyburger]

I don't understand why people think music theory is difficult. The concepts are no more difficult than grade-school math. Years ago when I first started playing I checked a music theory book out of the library, read it, and started applying the concepts to my fretboard. It seemed fairly straightforward as well as enlightening.

 

 

Math and algebra are good analogies. Lots of people struggle with math because they see it or are taught it as many small facts or concepts. It becomes a struggle when they don't see how those facts fit into an overall pattern. I remember many Ah-ha! moments moving from algebra to calculus when the bit I was struggling with dropped into its place in the pattern.

 

Music has been the same way for me. I learned many little bits of disconnected facts taking piano lessons as a kid. Now that I'm doing the mid-life crisis thing by learning guitar, I'm more motivated to learn music theory and apply it, and it's led to many ah-ha moments from the isolated things I remember from those piano lessons.

[MalusAranea]

My question is why does everyone think Theory is necessary?

- spidey

[Knottyhed]

My question is why does everyone think Theory is necessary? - spidey

 

 

Nobody thinks it is necessary, but it is certainly useful. It isn't necessary to know how to tune a guitar, it isn't necessary to know any scale patterns, it isn't necessary to know the names of any chords, it isn't necessary to work on your ear, it isn't necessary to be able to play fast.

 

Question is how many unnecessary things are you going to not work on before you limit yourself as a musician and limit your ability to communicate with and learn from other musicians?

[Jawbreakerr]

 

My question is why does everyone think Theory is necessary? - spidey

 

 

for me it simply comes down to, "why take the shortcuts? i wanna learn everything i possibly can about the guitar in multiple styles of music."

 

theory is the understanding of music.

 

with theory alone, i can make up new chords ive never played before. read music ive never heard before. and i can also discuss music with fellow musicians.

 

even something as simple as knowing what the 3rd does in each chord would make a difference.

 

my friend whos been playin guitar for 10 years now, doesnt eevn know that the 3rd of the chord is what gives it its Major or Minor sound.

 

even that TINY tidbit of information goes a LONNNG way with improvising and playing chords.