Why GMaj7 and G7 but not Gb7?

[Kuroyume]

One thing about chord naming conventions, esp. related to guitar is the shear diversity and non-intuitiveness of the names.

 

I mention these two type of chords because one seems obvious whereas the other just seems deliberately deceiptful.

 

So, why is a G7 (1-3-5-b7) not called a Gb7? Is there an alternate Gb7? It definitely isn't a Gm7 (1-b3-5-7). Did someone make a naming error or is there a reason behind this craziness?

 

FYI: I'm just getting deeply into music theory with my teacher. Before that, it was very limited to the more complex structures. Still grappling with 'dominant', 'sub-dominant', secondary dominant, drop-2s, and all of these exciting details.

 

Thanks

[Osmosis]

One thing about chord naming conventions, esp. related to guitar is the shear diversity and non-intuitiveness of the names. I mention these two type of chords because one seems obvious whereas the other just seems deliberately deceiptful. So, why is a G7 (1-3-5- b 7) not called a Gb7? Is there an alternate Gb7? It definitely isn't a Gm7 (1-b3-5-7). Did someone make a naming error or is there a reason behind this craziness? FYI: I'm just getting deeply into music theory with my teacher. Before that, it was very limited to the more complex structures. Still grappling with 'dominant', 'sub-dominant', secondary dominant, drop-2s, and all of these exciting details. Thanks

 

Because Gb7 would imply the root of Gb.

:poke:

 

(it's really confusing to have to differentiate between G (flat seven) and G-flat (seven))

[Osmosis]

To get in a little more depth, G7 is really called a G dominant 7, the G7 is just shorthand. That has to do with how the chord functions as it occurs naturally within a cadence.

 

These chord names that guitarists and jazz/rock/pop musicians tend to use are called "pop" chord symbols...the whole system is basically a shorthand, and the rules are pretty loose...there aren't any hard, fast naming conventions in pop symbols, and different people will write things different ways...for instance, some people will write Gmaj7, GM7, or G?7 for the same chord, or Gmin7, Gm7, G-7 for the same chord.

 

In the strictest rules of the classical world, a G dominant 7 would be called a GMm7, or G major-minor seventh, referring to the quality of the third and seventh of the chord, respectively. Likewise, a Gmin7 would be called a Gmm7, and a Gmaj7 would be GMM7. As you can tell, once you get into jazz and start working with 13th chords, this naming convention would get tedious...you'd have to call a G13 a GMmMMM13! So basically the pop chord system is there as a shorthand to parse all that down...basically, a seventh or higher chord is just assumed to be a dominant, having a minor (flatted) seventh, unless otherwise stated (with a major or minor designation). In this way, you can have a G13 which implies 1,3,5,b7,9,11,13 (although guitarists often leave out notes like the 5th and 11th for ease of fingering), without actually writing everything that's in it...it's just implied.

 

PS--Gm7 is 1, b3, 5, b7p...not 1,b3,5,7

[Kuroyume]

I thought that 1-b3-5-b7 might be correct for the Gm7 but I didn't sit down and note it out on the guitar (so I erred!) Thanks for the clarification!

 

See, this is where a '-' could be useful, as in G-b7, or maybe G(b7) or something that elucidates that the 7 here is flatted.

 

So, why not Gmb7!? ;P

 

Aren't we stressed enough with these shorthand names, key signatures, note relationship names, and so on without having to remember that a 7 here is flatted whereas another one is not?

 

Now you've completely confused me Osmosis! I can program a computer and understand Japanese - but this stuff just makes me glaze over.

 

Aaaaahhhhhh!

 

ETA: Rereading your post several times , Osmosis, I see where you are going between the 'pop' chord names and longhand. The problem is that the shorthand is sometimes not well defined without rote memorization of each shorthand name and various incarnations (I do understand the notation of M for major and m for minor). I actually like the long names as they are definitive. This reminds me of what I just learned - that Ndim is the same as N7b9. I guess now I have one shorthand down. ;D So, do you go insane first and it makes sense or the other way round...

[pop tarts]

the dominant 7th chord comes from the V chord in the major scale, which is where it is used most often. the name stems from that somehow.

[Osmosis]

You can't put a dash, 'cause it would get mistaken for a minus sign, which means minor.

 

 

Although you could say something like GM(b7) to really "elucidate" the fact that the seventh is flatted, the first time you try to sight-read a jazz chart flying by at 180bpm, you'll appreciate the shorthand. You want as few symbols to interpret as possible in that situation.

 

This reminds me of what I just learned - that Ndim is the same as N7b9. I guess now I have one shorthand down. ;D

 

Actually, that's not *quite* correct, but you're on the right track. A diminished chord (also a diminished 7th chord) is contained within a dominant seven flat nine chord...but they don't share a root.

 

C7b9 = 1, 3, 5, b7, b9 = C, E, G, Bb, Db

 

Cdim7 = 1, b3, b5, bb7 = C, Eb, Gb, Bbb

 

You can see that these don't line up if you start on the same root...however, if you start on the third of the C7b9 chord and play a dim7 chord, you get this:

 

Edim7 = E, G, Bb, Db

 

You can see how this chord is contained within the C7b9 chord...basically, whenever you see a _7b9 chord, you can substitute a dim7 chord, starting a major third above the root of the _7b9.

 

It gets crazy I know, but don't worry, it'll make sense eventually if you stick with it!

[Kuroyume]

Unfortunately, if I were playing 'live' it would be well rehearsed. I'm definitely not aiming for the level of jazz improvization where I could possibly play outright with any given progression decided upon at the time. So, I don't mind the 'full explanatory' layout of the chords.

 

But, see, this is the reason that I'm taking lessons geared towards a deeper understanding of music theory. It is one thing to play major/minor/sus.4/sevenths/sixths and so on in contextually based formats along with minor pentatonics and major/rel.minor scales (modally or not) - in my case some harmonic minors thrown in from YJM. It is another to go beyond that. Most of my drive has come from those instances where a progression and soloing over it completely confused me or, simply put, Joe Satriani. Understanding 'why' instead of just sheepishly obeying whats given takes more than I thought it might.

 

Thanks for the indepth explanations - and I vote for GM(b7)!

 

As you can see, I'm sticking with it! Keep the padded cell ready!

[Osmosis]

A simple breakdown of the common symbols used could go a long way to simplifying this:

 

Triads (1,3,5):

 

minor (-, m, min) = flat the third = 1, b3, 5

major (M, maj) = don't flat the third! = 1, 3, 5

diminished (dim,

[Osmosis]

Thanks for the indepth explanations - and I vote for GM(b7)! As you can see, I'm sticking with it! Keep the padded cell ready!

 

 

If you want to stick with the long-hand version, you might as well do it the way they'll teach you in a proper music theory course, so that way at least you'll be able to communicate with a few other musicians instead of just making up your own secret chord language

 

In that case, you'd call the standard G7 chord a GMm7...a seventh chord starting on G with a major third and a minor (flatted) seventh. A major 7th chord would be GMM7 and a minor 7th chord would be Gmm7. It takes longer to write and read but all the important stuff is written right there in the name, you don't have to memorize much of anything.

[Kuroyume]

Wow! I saved your previous message. I understand the triads and some of the 7ths but then you lost me after that (for the time being). Hopefully, with time, all of that will become clear. The worst part, with guitar, is that it is impossible to form a chord of more than six notes (barring a guitar with more than six strings) - and even then, the fingerings are sometimes impossible for some chords so that they have to be 'implied' by some voodoo magic of omission, inversion, and contextual inflection. Pianists have it easy... ;D

 

Btw, I like and agree with your sig.

[Osmosis]

Wow! I saved your previous message. I understand the triads and some of the 7ths but then you lost me after that (for the time being). Hopefully, with time, all of that will become clear. The worst part, with guitar, is that it is impossible to form a chord of more than six notes (barring a guitar with more than six strings) - and even then, the fingerings are sometimes impossible for some chords so that they have to be 'implied' by some voodoo magic of omission, inversion, and contextual inflection. Pianists have it easy... ;D Btw, I like and agree with your sig.

 

Cool...just keep working on it man, it'll just "click" one day...there actually is a method to the madness of music theory, and once you get it it'll all fall into place...and then you'll be able to forget it all and just play

 

I know what you mean about the limitations of the guitar...once you really learn your way around though, you'll notice that there's an awful lot you can do with six strings. In fact, in jazz where they have a bunch of crazy chords, often you'll find yourself only playing say 3 or 4 strings at a time, even though the "full" chord you're supposed to be playing has 5 or 6 notes. The trick is to only play the important notes!

 

For instance, lets say the music calls for a C13b9 chord (1, 3, 5, b7, b9, 11, 13)

 

What are the most important notes?

 

Well, the third needs to be there because that's what differentiates between a major and minor chord. Without it, you're kind of in limbo between tonalities.

 

The seventh is the second most important note, because without it you can't tell that it's a dominant tonality. A major 7th chord sounds a lot different than a dominant 7th chord, but without that 7th that tonality that is written into the music is lost.

 

You obviously want the b9, because that's an altered tone, if they made sure to notate that they want the b9 sound you'd probably better play it!

 

Same thing with the 13, if they didn't need that they wouldn't have written it in!

 

So what are you left with that you can omit?

 

Firstly, the 5th is often a good candidate for omission, because the most common chords don't alter the 5th in any way...it just kinda sits there no matter what chord you're on, so leaving it out doesn't make such a big difference. Obviously if you're playing a diminished or augmented chord where the fifth is altered it's important to the tonality but otherwise it can be omitted.

 

Next, you can leave out the 11th. Often, non-altered upper tones can be omitted, basically anything above the 7th. In a 13 chord, they often drop the 9 and the 11, in an 11 chord they'll often drop the 9. It would sound more full if you put them all in but it's a bitch to play that and it doesn't affect the tonality in any way. Dropping the 11 doesn't change it from major or minor or dominant or whatever, so dropping it doesn't have that much of an effect.

 

Lastly, you can often drop the root because the bass player will be covering that.

 

So, you could imply that chord with just four notes! The 3rd, 7th, b9th, and 13th. These are the "meat" of the chord, the notes that affect the tonality. You could imply that whole chord like this:

 

E: 8

B: 10

G: 9

D: 8

A:

E:

 

In fact, in a lot of contexts you wouldn't even want to play any more than that, because you have to leave some space for the rest of the band!

[fmw]

As mentioned, the chord naming rules are a little fluffy. However, I think every experienced musician understands Gmaj7 vs. Gm7 or G-7 so, at least we have some conventions that everyone agrees upon. I think it is fair to say that chord charts are pretty clear about what the arranger or composer intended.

[jonPhillips]

 

So, you could imply that chord with just four notes! The 3rd, 7th, b9th, and 13th. These are the "meat" of the chord, the notes that affect the tonality. You could imply that whole chord like this: E: 8 B: 10 G: 9 D: 8 A: E: In fact, in a lot of contexts you wouldn't even want to play any more than that, because you have to leave some space for the rest of the band!

 

 

A superb post, explaining a difficult concept very clearly. Even with 'basic' chords, a lot of bassists will get upset if you play the root notes...

[1001gear]

 

the dominant 7th chord comes from the V chord in the major scale, which is where it is used most often. the name stems from that somehow.

 

 

It's arithmetic. The first 7th in the overtone series is the 'flat' 7th. In fact every note generates a 7th chord. The Ionian (major) 7th is a human adjustment to accommodate the V chord in functional harmony. (or something lolz) The major seventh doesn't occur till way up in the partials.

[Jamiegaskin]

there's a lot of really knowledgeable people here, but to put it really simply,

there's a Gmaj7, so it wouldn't be a Gb7, it would be Gmin7. but that would become a G6

[jonfinn]

When deciphering 7th chord symbols, all you have to do is remember 4 simple rules:

 

1) the 5th of the chord is assumed to be natural unless you're told otherwise (i.e. b5, #5 or "aug").

 

2) "7" in a chord symbol is assumed to be b7.

 

3) "min", "m" or "-" in a chord symbol only means b3. Nothing else. If you don't see those, the 3rd is natural.

 

4) "maj" in a 7th chord symbol means "natural" 7th.

[bigboy_78]

 

there's a lot of really knowledgeable people here, but to put it really simply, there's a Gmaj7, so it wouldn't be a Gb7, it would be Gmin7. but that would become a G6

 

 

WTF?

[Osmosis]

 

WTF?

 

 

Seriously, I don't know wtf that guy was going on about...