Theory Debate.... m7sus4... exist or not

[joenovice]

Xmin7sus4

 

I've heard this chord sonority mentioned in conversation lately and again on this forum.

 

I don't believe it can actually exist. Here's why....

 

Suspended chords require that the 3rd be replaced with either the 2nd or 4th tone. Since the 3rd is required to create the base identity (maj, min, dim), How is it possible for a minor chord to also be suspended.

 

C F G Bb = C7sus4

C Eb G Bb F = Cmin11

 

I'd love to hear an explanation for how or why a chord can be both minor and suspended.

[1001gear]

Once again, the sus thing is a voice leading concession. And so are the occasional omitted 3rds. I think it might be useful to develop pivotal logic concerning these ambiguities. After all they music doesn't lock up every time you play a suspension.

[joenovice]

Despite the ambiguities that exist when notating chords, I don't think that voice leading concerns can lead one down a path that denies the requirment of a 3rd for determining Major and Minor.

 

Can anyone provide a situation that creates the type of ambiguity that creates the need for mixing min/sus?

 

(I know this thread is esoteric but it's a quest for my own understanding.)

[Li Shenron]

Here's my 2 cents...

 

The minor chord is the chord built on the aeolian mode, or the 6th note of the natural scale, right? This is the aeolian mode:

 

Root + maj 2nd + min 3rd + perf 4th + perf 5th + min 6th + min 7th

 

The min7 chord is therefore Root + min 3rd + perf 5th + min 7th.

 

The min7sus4 replaces the 3rd with the 4th so Root + perf 4th + perf 5th + min 7th.

 

In the context of the natural scale, these four notes could also correspond to the mixolydian mode, the dorian mode and the phrigian mode.

 

When you tell me that I have to play min7sus4, you're not only telling me those 4 notes, you're also restricting me to which modes we may be playing around the chord. In this case, you're telling me I should not play mixolydian (because it's major and not minor).

 

So at least somehow there is information in calling it min7sus4 as opposed to for example maj7sus4, which would have exactly the same notes but would clearly indicate that the band behind is playing mixolydian.

[1001gear]

 

Despite the ambiguities that exist when notating chords, I don't think that voice leading concerns can lead one down a path that denies the requirment of a 3rd for determining Major and Minor.

 

 

This is still traditional harmony where the key and/or context determine Major or minor. In a minor key the suspensions would resolve to the flat third and probably would not coexist. As for incomplete triads, they abound.

[Jasco]

 

Suspended chords require that the 3rd be replaced with either the 2nd or 4th tone.

 

 

From The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine, p.46:

 

 

A persistant myth is that "the 4th takes the place of the 3rd in a sus chord." This was true at one time, but in the 1960's, a growing acceptance of dissonance led pianists and guitarists to play sus voicings with both the 3rd and the 4th.

 

[Phlat Phive]

 

From The Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine, p.46:

 

 

 

A persistant myth is that "the 4th takes the place of the 3rd in a sus chord." This was true at one time, but in the 1960's, a growing acceptance of dissonance led pianists and guitarists to play sus voicings with both the 3rd and the 4th.

 

 

All due respect to Mr Levine, but in that case it would seem to me stop being a sus chord, becoming either and add4 or an 11 (depending on whether or not there's a 7th in the chord).

[gennation]

Yeah, I don't agree with Mark on that one either.

 

I can see a Dm11 chord stacked in 4ths also being callewd a G7sus4, but that deosn't mean the Dm11 is a Dm7sus4.

 

I agree with the OP that a m7sus4 is kind of goofy.

 

But again, could a chord be written that way? Yes it could since we are always at the mercy of the transcriber. But as a musician YOU WOULD STILL need to decipher it. Chances it's a sus chord where a m7 chord would be diatonically. Which also means you could see it written as a 7sus4 chord...

 

would this be right is it was harmonically or diatonically in the place where a m7 chord should?

 

But if it states 'sus' there is no 3rd but it diatonically could be based on a dom7 or m7 depending on it's place in the Key.

 

Well once again, you are at the mercy of the transcriber and YOU have be the one who's going to play through it.

[jonfinn]

 

Xmin7sus4 I've heard this chord sonority mentioned in conversation lately and again on this forum. I don't believe it can actually exist. Here's why.... Suspended chords require that the 3rd be replaced with either the 2nd or 4th tone. Since the 3rd is required to create the base identity (maj, min, dim), How is it possible for a minor chord to also be suspended. C F G Bb = C7sus4 C Eb G Bb F = Cmin11 I'd love to hear an explanation for how or why a chord can be both minor and suspended.

 

 

The definition I use for this situation is pretty simple.

 

The term "sus4" or "sus2" implies that the 3rd has been replaced by either 2 or 4 (depeding).

 

9 or 11 implies the presence of the 3rd.

 

But naming a chord really isn't and exact science, so you do see weird chord symbols occasionally. Further, there are some instances (but not always) where I might use the same voicing for C7sus4 and Cm11.

[gennation]

If the chord was a m7 with a 4/11 in it I would just call it a m11. Because it specifies the extended chord family and how you can properly voice the chord.

[Jed]

Cm7sus4 and C7sus4 - share the same chord tones.

Does that mean they are the same chord?

It depends how you define / think about your chords.

 

A similar argument comes up around enharmonic spellings. If C# and Db produce effectively the same pitch (say on a piano) then why do we care which label is used? The most often cited argument for use of the correct enharmonic spelling is to maintain harmonic or melodic context. A "C#" doesn't really make sense in the context of something in Bb minor, but the Db makes perfect sense.

 

For me it's about relaying the greatest amount of information in the most concise way possible. I'll often use quartal voicings on min7 chords, effectively playing min7 add11 and or sus chord variations during various comp'ing patterns. On a lead sheet I would notate these as just min7 chords knowing that those that understand would know they could add an 11th (or the 4th depending how you think about it) anytime they wanted to (consider that the minor pentatonic scale defines a min7 add11 chord and fits perfectly inside any of the diatonic min7 chord scales / functions / modes.)

 

If I wanted to define a 7th chord with a sus4, I can choose to further refine the type of 3rd of the chord scale by saying m7sus7 vs 7sus4. By saying sus4 I'm telling the reader that I don't intent to have the 3rd (minor or major) played harmonically but they may choose to play the 3rd melodically. By notating a m7sus4, I'm telling the reader that the b3rd would be the preferred melodic third vs the major third if I wrote 7sus4.

 

cheers,

[Jasco]

 

Yeah, I don't agree with Mark on that one either.

 

 

 

 

Yes, I'd agree with both of you guys. I just thought I'd put that up there as fodder for debate.

[joenovice]

Good posts all.... I don't think that a concrete answer exists for this debate but it's still worth a thought.

 

 

By notating a m7sus4, I'm telling the reader that the b3rd would be the preferred melodic third vs the major third if I wrote 7sus4.

 

 

From my perspective, I would never use the sus extension if I intended the performer to consider a melodic 3rd. If I used sus, I would expect that the melodic content and improvisation to omit the 3rd, thus creating the "hollow" sound that I relate to SUS.

 

If I intended the option of a 3rd to be in play I would always opt to notate min11.

[gennation]

I think we are all on the same page, that a 7sus4 and a m7sus4 would be the same interval formula, and also that you wouldn't have a "melodic 3rd" (as it was called) in a chord that had the sus symbol.

[sgt mukuzi]

yes, the "sus" is overused. nice thread!

[meganutt7]

My understanding of the nomenclature is this: if the third is ABOVE the fourth in the configuration of the voicing, it is deemed a m7sus4 or a 7sus4 (if you have a major third in there). If, however, the fourth is above the third, it would be defined as a minor 11th chord or any other designation you may want to give it.

[joenovice]

 

My understanding of the nomenclature is this: if the third is ABOVE the fourth in the configuration of the voicing, it is deemed a m7sus4 or a 7sus4 (if you have a major third in there). If, however, the fourth is above the third, it would be defined as a minor 11th chord or any other designation you may want to give it.

 

 

 

Can you provide a published reference for this?

 

How would this method of nomenclature account for open-voicings of chords or inversions? I've never know of a chord's sonority to be determined by it's inversion.

[TheAxeMan]

 

Cm7sus4 and C7sus4 - share the same chord tones. Does that mean they are the same chord? It depends how you define / think about your chords. A similar argument comes up around enharmonic spellings. If C# and Db produce effectively the same pitch (say on a piano) then why do we care which label is used? The most often cited argument for use of the correct enharmonic spelling is to maintain harmonic or melodic context. A "C#" doesn't really make sense in the context of something in Bb minor, but the Db makes perfect sense. For me it's about relaying the greatest amount of information in the most concise way possible. I'll often use quartal voicings on min7 chords, effectively playing min7 add11 and or sus chord variations during various comp'ing patterns. On a lead sheet I would notate these as just min7 chords knowing that those that understand would know they could add an 11th (or the 4th depending how you think about it) anytime they wanted to (consider that the minor pentatonic scale defines a min7 add11 chord and fits perfectly inside any of the diatonic min7 chord scales / functions / modes.) If I wanted to define a 7th chord with a sus4, I can choose to further refine the type of 3rd of the chord scale by saying m7sus7 vs 7sus4. By saying sus4 I'm telling the reader that I don't intent to have the 3rd (minor or major) played harmonically but they may choose to play the 3rd melodically. By notating a m7sus4, I'm telling the reader that the b3rd would be the preferred melodic third vs the major third if I wrote 7sus4. cheers,

 

 

Ya I agree with this. It has to do with the context of the song or progression its being used in. Makes sense, its giving you some information which is great.

[meganutt7]

Joe,

 

The rationalization, as I understand it, is that if the third is on top it creates an interval of a seventh, which is less obviously dissonant, especially when filled in with other notes (and sounds less likea cluster), whereas if the fourht is on top it creates a far more dissonant intervallic relationship of a second, forming a cluster, which is very dense and tense.

 

I forget where I read this, but it very well may have been either the Jazz Theory Book by Mark Levine or maybe A Chromatic Approach To Jazz Harmony and Melody by David Liebman.

 

I don't really remember where I read it, but MY personal belief is that the SOUND dictates the function and the nomenclature... If the third of the chord is emphasized and sounds SIGNIFICANT in the voicing, it would function to my ear as a minor 11th chord.... If the third were more understated and less felt in the harmonic crux of things, it would be perceived as more of a sus. chord, hence the m7sus.4 terminology.

 

My two Cents, only.

 

Theory is all after the fact. Theories change in accordance with what an innovator creates and discovers. I mean, in the 1600's a tritone was the Diablo en Musica.. Now blues and jazz exploit this interval on a daily and on their most basic levels.... (as an example)

 

Also, if you see terminology for a scale, for instance: The fourth mode of Melodic Minor can be called Lydian Dominant, Lydian b7, Mixolydian #11 (#4) etc. All I am saying is there is more than one way to skin a cat.

 

Another quick example with 7th chords:

 

Cmaj7= Cmaj7; or Em/C; or Emb6 ; or G11/13(no 5/no 7)

 

Now.. ABOVE AND BEYOND the implications that one method of classification is SUPERIOR to another, the thing you need to consider is this:

 

If you think of a Cmaj7 as Cmaj7, you will address the chord change in a particular way... If you think of it as Em/C you may address it in a completely different way.... Etc. So, I think it is important to embrace all POSSIBLE terminology for a certain chord/scale/etc. just for the sake of exploring the same topic from a different angle, so to speak.

 

Know what I mean, Jellybean???

 

www.myspace.com/dannyhayounakaprofessorparkinson

[Phlat Phive]

Meganutt7, I agree with the basic idea behind your post, but in this particular case it just seems useful to me to have a descriptive term for when the third of a chord is excluded. Clouding the definition of a sus chord (or at least the definition as I understand it) just unnecessarily complicates things imo.

 

"Now play a sus4 chord... no, play the version without the third..."

[joenovice]

Meganutt7, I agree with the basic idea behind your post, but in this particular case it just seems useful to me to have a descriptive term for when the third of a chord is excluded. Clouding the definition of a sus chord (or at least the definition as I understand it) just unnecessarily complicates things imo. "Now play a sus4 chord... no, play the version without the third..."

 

A-men!

 

... that sums up my point fairly well. A sus chord is, by it's basic definition, a traditional harmonic function by which the 3rd of a chord is replaced with either the 2nd or 4th.

 

It can be neither major nor minor nor dominant nor diminished nor augmented. It is Suspended.

[meganutt7]

Phlat,

 

As true as that may be.. .Again.. you could, for example, call a chord a &sus4.. say a G7sus4. Couldn't you just as easily call it an F/G or a Dm7/G??? I think that is, at the end of the day, the best way to process information... One note at a time...

[Phlat Phive]

Phlat, As true as that may be.. .Again.. you could, for example, call a chord a &sus4.. say a G7sus4. Couldn't you just as easily call it an F/G or a Dm7/G??? I think that is, at the end of the day, the best way to process information... One note at a time...

 

I don't think I'd ever call anything a G7sus4 chord, since G7 implies the presence of a 3rd and sus4 implies, imho, the absence of a third. A G dominant with an added 4th in there would then become a G11.

 

I'd reserve slash chord notation to imply a specific voicing, with a note other than the root in the bass. A notation like 'Gsus4' doesn't imply a specific voicing, again imo. Some people rooted in classical music might object to the latter.

 

Furthermore, a notation like F/G would imply that in the specific context of the music, the notes f, a, c and g function as an F chord, not as a G chord. Since the g is in there, I might notate it as Fadd2/G.

 

This is the way it makes sense to me. Your mileage may vary.

 

Edit: Actually, I probably wouldn't notate it as Fadd2/G. Too much effort for something that's already fully conveyed by the F/G notation.

[joenovice]

G7sus4 makes total sense to me.

 

The 7 indicates the interval of a m7 over the root and sus4 indicates the 4th scale degree replacing the 3rd.

 

Very common...

 

m7sus4.... or Maj7sus4 by association.... not necessary since other, less confusing terms exist to describe the function.

 

min11

[joenovice]

 

Phlat, As true as that may be.. .Again.. you could, for example, call a chord a sus4.. say a G7sus4. Couldn't you just as easily call it an F/G or a Dm7/G??? ... One note at a time...

 

 

I would say that all of those chords represent the same pitch collection but the nomenclature would be dictated by function (harmonic progression).

 

F/G if the next chord was C maj

Dm7/G if the next chord were A min. (probably would call the G a non-chord or approach tone)

 

G7sus4 if the harmony were static or resolved to G7.

 

Gm7sus4... nope.... I'd say Gmin11 moving to C7.