Members thetrooper9 Posted July 23, 2009 Members Share Posted July 23, 2009 when im soloing i usually just play in the key of the song. im noticing that my solos dont have the tension that i hear from other players. i think i need to get away from playing in 1 scale but im not sure what to do. how do most people solo in a jazz tune? are they following each chord with its mode or what? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poparad Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 are they following each chord with its mode or what? Yes. Jazz improvisation is much more focused around the chords themselves. Just picking the key and soloing is missing the point for two reasons: 1) Jazz rarely stays in a single key and 2) jazz is about following the changes, and just playing the key completely ignores the differences between each chord in the key. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 1001gear Posted July 23, 2009 Members Share Posted July 23, 2009 Some years ago I was bugging this keyboard player about chords and stuff and he started playing bluesy stuff demonstrating how 13th chords work and then he dropped the magic word on me. Polytonality. I'm like duh. I never thought of jazz in that context but there it was. I still lack the actual facility, but I'm starting to hear it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Santuzzo Posted July 23, 2009 Members Share Posted July 23, 2009 I think arpeggio's is the key here.Learn the arpeggios of the chords and go from there. But keep in mind that in the end you want to combine them with scales or passing tones, chromatics, etc.But as a first step I would recommend studying the arps to the song in a given position until you have them at your command.Then see how you can connect from one chord to the other. In the end you should be able to play a solo outlining the harmony without any accompanying instrument in the background. Good luck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members meganutt7 Posted July 23, 2009 Members Share Posted July 23, 2009 We're talking about two things here... jazz lineage and tension... When you speak of tension, the approach is not unilateral... There are MANY approaches to creating tension, from sophisticated chord substitution, to extended harmonies to upper structure triads to simple tricks like playing up a half step, or whatnot... The thing about all these techniques is to begin USING them alot to get the jist of what effect they create.... I actually just posted a new song on my myspace page that really sort of touches on this (I am playing very minimalistic on it, but you can still hear the tension of the motifs getting twisted...)... Check it out and let me know what you think (and also if this is sort of what you mean with respect to the creation and resolution of tension).. The track is called Paradigm... (The rhythm section is me playing an 8-string guitar/bass like Charlie Hunter... first track I laid down the 8 string on...) www.myspace.com/dannyhayounakaprofessorparkinson If you have any questions specifically, feel free to hit me up... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Virgman Posted July 23, 2009 Members Share Posted July 23, 2009 If a C major chord is playing you could play an A minor arp over it. Throw in some passing tones. (vim over a IM) If a G7 chord is playing you could play a D minor arp with/without some passing tones. (iim over a V7). Don't play a C major arp over a C major chord. Boring. This takes a lot of practice to recognize what arp you could play over a given chord. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stomias Posted July 23, 2009 Members Share Posted July 23, 2009 If a G7 is playing play: Abmin arp (3rd, #5, b9)Emaj arp (3rd, 13, b9)Amaj arp (b5, 9, 13)Dbmaj arp (b5, b7, b9) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thetrooper9 Posted July 23, 2009 Author Members Share Posted July 23, 2009 ok so its more arps than scales? mostly 3 note arps too? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Santuzzo Posted July 23, 2009 Members Share Posted July 23, 2009 ok so its more arps than scales? mostly 3 note arps too? I would recommend learning the basic 7th arps to the chords first. Using upper structure triads or substitutes is the next step AFTER you have the basic 7th arps under your fingers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stomias Posted July 23, 2009 Members Share Posted July 23, 2009 ok so its more arps than scales? mostly 3 note arps too? Just the 3 notes of the arp is sufficient to get into some tasty sounding stuff. And it's easier!! Remember to resolve your lines to a minor or major chord tone (4th above, 1/2 step up or down and tritone). Also use the up and down a minor 3rd with altered dominant chords. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members girevik Posted July 23, 2009 Members Share Posted July 23, 2009 when im soloing i usually just play in the key of the song. im noticing that my solos dont have the tension that i hear from other players. i think i need to get away from playing in 1 scale but im not sure what to do. how do most people solo in a jazz tune? are they following each chord with its mode or what? "are they following each chord with its mode?" Answer: I tried this route. I found it tedious to figure out a mode for every chord in the tune. I have yet to find any evidence of a great jazz player actually approaching a tune with this kind of mentality, unless the tune was specifically written for modal improvisation (eg. the tunes on the Kind Of Blue album, such as the well-known "So What" with its Dorian mode). BTW, I found I had to stay away from model tunes for quite a while - it was impossible for me to play them without getting stuck into a "favorite scale" mentality. I'm sure a variety of people solo a variety of ways over jazz tunes. What has worked for me is to simplify, strip-down the approach despite my eagerness to show off and be hip, then build back up. Emily Remler says in her Bebop and Swing Guitar video to start with the guide tones. So maybe you should try getting used to identifying the guide tones for the chords, then gradually building on those. As you get used to finding the guide tones, start working in ideas you pick up from studying the solos of the jazz greats. If you are not collecting ideas from the solos of the greats, you should start doing so ASAP! If you need a more formalized, rigorous approach to incorporating the material you got from these solos, Ed Byrne posted some great advice on the All About Jazz forums. Emily Remler explains the basics of guide tones here: [YOUTUBE][/YOUTUBE] The rest of her Bebop & Swing Guitar series on Youtube is highly recommended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stomias Posted July 23, 2009 Members Share Posted July 23, 2009 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thetrooper9 Posted July 23, 2009 Author Members Share Posted July 23, 2009 yeah i tried some model soloing but i just couldn't be musical while i was trying to think. john McLaughlin is my favorite. what would you consider to be his soloing style? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members girevik Posted July 23, 2009 Members Share Posted July 23, 2009 Based on what I've read about his references to King, Queen, and Prince/Baron/whatever tones per chord, he probably thinks a lot like Emily Remler, except with fancier rhythms. Get your time downGet the guide tones downListen to the great players The hip ideas will flow as the fundamentals get more and more solid. At least that's what has started happening for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Poparad Posted July 23, 2009 Share Posted July 23, 2009 Get your time down Get the guide tones down Listen to the great players The hip ideas will flow as the fundamentals get more and more solid. At least that's what has started happening for me. This is some of the best advice you can follow. Really focus on the fundamentals and get them down, and the rest will follow much more comfortably and naturally. I'm always a bit frustrated to see a lot of information overload thrown into threads like this. The original poster said he doesn't even follow chords; just picks the key and plays with the scale. Throwing out replies with complex arpeggio substitutions with very little theoretical explanation or justification is putting the cart way, way before the horse. You won't be able to play outside sounds well until you can clearly follow and play over the inside sounds within a key first. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members halfwhole Posted July 23, 2009 Members Share Posted July 23, 2009 and please dont' forget the melody. learn some solos from early jazz players, who based their ideas on embellishments of the melody rather than the chord/scale stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thetrooper9 Posted July 24, 2009 Author Members Share Posted July 24, 2009 thanks for the vid im starting to understand how it works Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thetrooper9 Posted July 24, 2009 Author Members Share Posted July 24, 2009 and please dont' forget the melody.learn some solos from early jazz players, who based their ideas on embellishments of the melody rather than the chord/scale stuff. examples? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members halfwhole Posted July 24, 2009 Members Share Posted July 24, 2009 not really that old, but it's the first one that came to mind as a great example. listen to miles on this one. melody! nA3xkwcSJQ4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members meganutt7 Posted July 24, 2009 Members Share Posted July 24, 2009 It's not really all about arpeggios, per se... The arpeggios give you a good idea of what notes you can exploit and any relationships there may be that could be interesting or a little more extended or dissonant... For instance, over a G7alt, playing an E major triad, which would yield an implied G13b9 chord.. The point is, you don't have to just play those notes, or even in a sequential order as most people perceive and arpeggio to be sounded... You can play a G Mixolydian scale if you like (again, not necessarily in a SCALAR ORDER.. it's justa pool of available notes) and ADD the notes from the E arpeggio that don't appear in that scale... in this case, E and B are in there.. so you add a G# (the b9)... how you do it is personal. It's up to you to decide what level of dissonance you are comfortable with and what appeals to your ear. Good luck... www.myspace.com/dannyhayounakaprofessorparkinson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stomias Posted July 24, 2009 Members Share Posted July 24, 2009 Nice Playing Prof.!!!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members meganutt7 Posted July 24, 2009 Members Share Posted July 24, 2009 Thanks alot, man.... I ifnally got the balls to bust out my 8-string, so the basslines and the sort of B-3 sounding comping on the left side are just the 8-string.. Of course I supplamented it witha Rhodes, drums and another sparse rhythm guitar playing single note lines throughout most of the A section (sparsely, though) I am glad you dug it man.. The new CD should be ready by the end of December, I hope.. trying to crank it out... Got like 4 more track to go before it's complete... I am trying to get more into recording more groove oriented stuff, as opposed to the first album which was more like Mr. Bungle instrumentals with shred guitar on them... The third cd will prolly be vocally oriented with actual SONGWRITING.... But for now, I am digging the sort of fusion vibe ihave going... I will try to milk it as much as possible.. Also, I know one of the new tracks will have all my Turkish instruments on it.. Yayli Tambur, Saz and Cumbus... and perhaps some Zills and Darbouka.... and maybe some Sipsi (Middle Eastern flute...) Fun stuff... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stomias Posted July 24, 2009 Members Share Posted July 24, 2009 You've got a Scofield type vibe happening.......very impressive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members girevik Posted July 24, 2009 Members Share Posted July 24, 2009 Also, I know one of the new tracks will have all my Turkish instruments on it.. Yayli Tambur, Saz and Cumbus... and perhaps some Zills and Darbouka.... and maybe some Sipsi (Middle Eastern flute...) Love your playing and writing! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members meganutt7 Posted July 27, 2009 Members Share Posted July 27, 2009 Thanks, Girevik... I actually just started tracking a new one yesterday... It's based on Kierkegaard's book "Fear and Trembling" and is about the philosophical ramifications of the scene in the Bible where Abraham is commanded to sacrifice Isaac.... it's a spooky jazzy ostinato thing in 7/8 and has some interesting twists and turns... I don't usually do guest spots on my albums but I may get this great friend of mine, who happens to be a RIDICULOUS trumpet player, to play a solo on it and maybe double the melody (once there IS a melody)... I just finished tracking the basics and I must say, I am pretty pleased already..... I think you guys will like it... It's more like hmmm.. trying to think what it sounds like.. Maybe Ozric Tentacles meets Gateway Trio meets Gong or something.... If my friend plays on it though.. it'll sound like Freddie Hubbards Latino cousin got a hold of it... I love his sound, man!! Hopefully, you will too!!! Peace! www.myspace.com/dannyhayounakaprofessorparkinson Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.