Three Flats and F

[windmill]

Hello

 

I've come across a couple pieces of music in the last couple of days that are puzzling.

 

The key signature is three flats which, to my way of thinking, signifies the key of Eb

 

but the chords are in the key of F ie F, Bb and C.

 

Can anyone correct my wrongful thinking on this ?

 

Thanks in advance

[guitarpreston]

id like to see these. can you email me a copy?

[1001gear]

Separate staff? Accidentals? What's the melody doing?

 

Inquiring minds want to know.

[JonR]

 

Hello I've come across a couple pieces of music in the last couple of days that are puzzling. The key signature is three flats which, to my way of thinking, signifies the key of Eb but the chords are in the key of F ie F, Bb and C. Can anyone correct my wrongful thinking on this ? Thanks in advance

Your thinking seems correct. 3 flats indicates either Eb major or C minor. So either the music is wrongly (or confusingly or incompletely) notated, or you're misreading it.

Are the chords power chords? (All 3 chords would all be compatible with Eb if that was the case)

Is there a capo involved?

Is a transposing instrument involved? (sax, trumpet etc)

[benzem]

Yes it could be a capo thing but..

 

I'm confused here...if a song is written using the (F) dorian mode (as this key signature) would the key be just F minor (1 flat) with accidentals....or THIS KEY (Eb, 3 flats)?????

 

?

 

I should know this.

[M3NTA7]

F Dorian uses the Eb Major scale, so there would be 3 flats.

 

The diatonic F, Bb and C chords for the Eb Major scale would be F minor, Bb Major and Cmin.

 

And as Jon said, you could use power chords and it would work out too (F5, Bb5, C5)

[JonR]

 

Yes it could be a capo thing but.. I'm confused here...if a song is written using the (F) dorian mode (as this key signature) would the key be just F minor (1 flat) with accidentals....or THIS KEY (Eb, 3 flats)????? ? I should know this.

F dorian could be written with 3 flats - it would be technically accurate - but many readers would prefer to see 4 flats (for key of F minor), with accidentals for the D naturals.

It's about expectation. F dorian is more like the key of F minor than it is like either Eb major or C minor. IOW, it's like the key of F minor, but with a raised 6th (D natural instead of Db). So the question is, what's the best way to communicate that to a reading musician?

[windmill]

The tunes are

Lazy - Deep Purple

 

Ain't got nothing but the blues - Robben Ford version.

 

Thanks for the interest.

[1001gear]

{t: Ain't Got Nothing But The Blues}

{st: Robben Ford}

 

[bb7]Ain't got the [F7/+5/+9]change of a [bb7]nickle [Am11] [D7/+9]

[Gm7]Ain't got no [Gm11]bounds (?) in [C13/-5]my shoes

[Gm11]Ain't got [Gdim7]no fancy to [Cm7]tickle (???) [Dm7/+5] [Ebmaj7]

[Edim7]

[Eb/F]I ain't got [F7/+5/+9]nothing but the [bb7]blues. [bb/D] [Eb9]

[Edim7]

[bb] [F7/+5/+9]

 

[bb7]Ain't got no [F7/+5/+9]coffee that's [bb7]cooking (???)

Ain't got no [Am11]feelings [Ab7/-5]to [Gm9]groove [C9/-5]

[Gm7]Ain't got a [Gdim7]dream that's [Cm7]working [Dm7/+5] [Ebmaj7]

[Edim7]

[Eb/F]I ain't got [F7/+5/+9]nothing but the [bb7]blues. [bb7] [Eb9]

[Edim7]

[bb7] [Eb13] [Eb9]

 

{soc}

[D9]The band is [Em7]swingin'

[Fdim]The folks are [D/F#]singin'

[G7]And I just can't seem to get off the ground

Believe me, [Gm7]Bridget [C13/-5]

I can't get [Gm7]with it [C13/-5]

[Cm7]Since my [Dm7/+5]little [Ebmaj7]baby [Edim7]left town [Eb/F]

{eoc}

 

Ain't got no [F7/+5/+9]rest in my [bb9]slumber [F7/+5]

[bb9]Ain't got no [Am11]winners [D7]to [Gm7]loose [C13/-5]

[Gm11]Lost all my [Dbdim7]telep[bbdim7]hone [Cm7]numbers [Dm7/+5] [Eb]

[Edim7]

[Eb/F]I ain't got [F7/+5/+9]nothing but the [bb7]blues.

 

{c: Solo}

 

{soc}

The band is rockin' (?)

The folks are stompin'

And I just can't seem to get with it

Ain't nothing to it

I just can't do it

Since my little baby left town

{eoc}

 

Ain't got no house in West-Chester

Ain't got no ? craft or cruise

So long my molly in Chester (?)

I ain't got nothing but the blues

 

Discuss...

[benzem]

 

F dorian could be written with 3 flats - it would be technically accurate - but many readers would prefer to see 4 flats (for key of F minor), with accidentals for the D naturals. It's about expectation. F dorian is more like the key of F minor than it is like either Eb major or C minor. IOW, it's like the key of F minor, but with a raised 6th (D natural instead of Db). So the question is, what's the best way to communicate that to a reading musician?

 

 

Oops I meant 4 flats...I changed it.

 

Expectation? My confusion is simply what KEY would you call it? I have heard in JAZZ it referred to as MINOR DORIAN (which is obv. not techically correct).

 

For instance...say a song written with the melody/chords that use E Phrygian. Would the KEY be Em (1 sharp) with accidentals all over or would the key sig be NO FLATS/SHARPS (C,Am,)???

[jeremy_green]

I would say the key signature is all about home tonality. Were it me I would have the 4 flat key signature for F Minor then mark accidentals.

Eb would definitely be misleading. It has little to do with Eb and everything to do with Fmin.... Both would be correct I would think... but it is very misleading if you ask me.

[JonR]

Oops I meant 4 flats...I changed it. Expectation? My confusion is simply what KEY would you call it? I have heard in JAZZ it referred to as MINOR DORIAN (which is obv. not techically correct). For instance...say a song written with the melody/chords that use E Phrygian. Would the KEY be Em (1 sharp) with accidentals all over or would the key sig be NO FLATS/SHARPS (C,Am,)???

Technically, a mode is not "in" a key at all. It's in a mode .

A mode is kind of like a key itself, but "key" has a particular meaning (at least in conventional parlance): either major or minor. Modes are something different. (Historically, keys evolved from modes.)

E phrygian is "relative" to C major, same as A minor is. The "keynote" (in the broad sense), or "tonal centre" is E, but the word "tonic" is not appropriate. (Even the word "tonal" is not strictly accurate. Modes are considered to be either "pre-tonal" or "post-tonal", the word "tonal" referring only to key-based music.)

 

As for how you notate it, that's optional. A blank key sig is OK, perhaps with an indication at the beginning: "phrygian mode"; or a 1-sharp sig, to prepare a reader for "E minor", with accidentals for all the F naturals. It depends on who's going to be reading it, and which way you think is going to be clearest (least confusing) for them.

 

BTW, that Robben Ford tune is in Bb major - just with a lot of chromaticisms due to its jazz-bluesy nature. (Nothing to do with modes at all.)

Not sure about "Lazy" - on a quick listen, a lot of bluesy F riffs, but I haven't listened closely enough to say whether it should be F major (with blues chromatics), or F minor (with a possibly dorian flavour).

[windmill]

I would agree with JonR, but there it is in black and white.

 

If it is in print it must be true but if it is on the internet it must be true. Oh dear what a dilemma.

 

Thanks everyone.

[polishpaul]

I would agree with JonR, but there it is in black and white. If it is in print it must be true but if it is on the internet it must be true. Oh dear what a dilemma. Thanks everyone.

 

 

My New Year resolution will be to agree with everyone who is at least one second older than me !

[JonR]

I would agree with JonR, but there it is in black and white. If it is in print it must be true but if it is on the internet it must be true. Oh dear what a dilemma. Thanks everyone.

LOL. You mean you found Robben Ford's tune in a book, notated with 3 flats? That's really surprising.

Just goes to show publishers are sometimes as unreliable as some dude on the internet...

(I guess the only explanation would be that they considered it as being in Bb mixolydian. Understandable, but definitely unconventional. It's not really a mixolydian piece, even if the Ab note is more common than A natural. It's a Bb blues, and the normal way to notate that is with a 2-flat key sig, and as many accidentals as you need in the music - and there would be quite a few of those, because of all the jazzy chord subs.)

 

The Deep Purple one may be a bit more ambiguous, as I said, but 3 flats would still be surprising (just less so).

[jonfinn]

 

F dorian could be written with 3 flats - it would be technically accurate - but many readers would prefer to see 4 flats (for key of F minor), with accidentals for the D naturals. It's about expectation. F dorian is more like the key of F minor than it is like either Eb major or C minor. IOW, it's like the key of F minor, but with a raised 6th (D natural instead of Db). So the question is, what's the best way to communicate that to a reading musician?

 

 

I've seen F dorian key signature written a few different ways:

 

-F major (one flat: Bb) with accidentals written to adjust for F Dorian (Eb and Ab).

 

-F minor (four flats Bb, Eb, Ab, Db) with accidentals to indicate D naturals.

 

-Eb major (three flats) with chord symbols, and maybe an annotation to indicate the tonality.

 

-No key signature at all with accidentals in every measure.

 

To the fluent reader, it shouldn't matter how it's written as long as the pitches are correct. Key signatures were created as a way of saving the music copyist some work.

 

As whacky as it might sound, the most common might be four flats with D natural accidentals where needed. This shows the player that it's F minor (kinda).

 

A skilled music copyist thinks a lot about how he/she thinks the musician might interpret what they've written.

 

Music notation is as much art as it is science.

[benzem]

LOL. You mean you found Robben Ford's tune in a book, notated with 3 flats? That's really surprising. Just goes to show publishers are sometimes as unreliable as some dude on the internet... (I guess the only explanation would be that they considered it as being in Bb mixolydian . Understandable, but definitely unconventional. It's not really a mixolydian piece, even if the Ab note is more common than A natural. It's a Bb blues, and the normal way to notate that is with a 2-flat key sig, and as many accidentals as you need in the music - and there would be quite a few of those, because of all the jazzy chord subs.) The Deep Purple one may be a bit more ambiguous, as I said, but 3 flats would still be surprising (just less so).

 

That's a perfect example of what I have been trying to get to. When you say "in" you ARE referring to a key!

 

This underlines my confusion.

[windmill]

It's in a guitar mag from a few years ago.

 

Thanks for your help

[jeremy_green]

 

That's a perfect example of what I have been trying to get to. When you say "in" you ARE referring to a key! This underlines my confusion.

 

 

Modes are like mini-keys.... like a child from the mother.

It's like saying... the key of C, as seen from G.

 

By saying "G Mixolydian" you know the altered notes (if any) AND the home tonality (Chord that is the I).

 

I know you know this, just talking it out.

[JonR]

 

That's a perfect example of what I have been trying to get to. When you say "in" you ARE referring to a key! This underlines my confusion.

Kind of, but "Bb mixolydian" is not a key, strictly speaking.

This is about definition of terms, really - and unfortunately meanings and usages can change over time. Once, it was common to speak of "key of Bb, major mode", or "key of Bb, minor mode". That would be what we'd refer to today as "key of Bb major" and "key of Bb minor", respectively. IOW, the idea of "key" referred only to a keynote: it then had to be specified what kind of mode/scale was built on that note. In theory, in that sense, one could equally say "key of Bb, mixolydian mode".

But the modern sense of "Key" refers only to major (ionian) or minor (aeolian), not any other mode. So a phrase like "key of Bb, mixolydian mode" might mean F mixolydian to some people!

 

A key signature, meanwhile, doesn't actually specify a key at all! It specifes a set of notes (which ones are altered from the natural set ABCDEFG). We just assume that 3 flats means Eb major or C minor - and that's why 2 flats would be better to indicate a kind of Bb major key, albeit one with a flattened 7th (shown by an accidental).

 

To say a piece is "in Bb mixolydian" is bypassing the whole concept of key, in a way. Yes, it refers to a tonal centre (Bb); but it's "in mixolydian mode", not in a "key" of any kind. (If you thought the distinction was arbitrary, I would agree!)