Classical guys - Help needed

[jimwratt]

My only experience with classical guitar is from a music summer camp 10 years ago. I took classical lessons for a few months leading up to it but didn't really play much after. Over that summer I developed a major musical crush on Prelude 1 in E Minor by Villa-Lobos and kind of made it a long term goal to one day play it.Last week I decided to finally get started on it (long story) and I actually learned the piece. My only problem is that I don't fingerpick well at all. I'm primarily an electric player (shred, blues, and jazz) so the left hand stuff isn't that tricky or me to get. With a little more practice, that side of the piece will be clean as a whistle. The right hand is what is setting me back. I have some understanding of the basics of classical guitar technique but nothing that really allows me to play this piece cleanly. I know where all the notes go and can eek them out, but it's not like I really know how to develop what I need for this piece. It's the first "real" classical piece I've ever learned, other than Greensleeves, and I'd imagine that it's probably not the best piece to start out with, but it's the one that captured my interest enough to get me to pick up the nylons again.

 

Does anyone have any drills that can help get my right hand up to snuff? The parts that I have the most trouble with are the chord rolls in the B section (the E major to F# minor 7 add 4/9 move). The only thing I know to do is to play it slowly with the metronome, but I don't want to hardwire the wrong thing in and have to unlearn it later and then learn it the right way. I'm playing the bottom three strings with P and using I-M-A to play the upper three strings. I want to get that skill really slick. Any ideas? The rest of it seems like it will improve with repetition, that part might need some guidance.

[chevybusa]

Hey dude. I would definitely advise getting a teacher to help you out with that...when it comes to classical, techique is SO important, ESPECIALLY the non fretboard hand...

 

I was fortunate enough that when I was a kid my old man made me take classical lessons from a grad student at the Hartt School of Music who had majored in in and was going for his PhD in classical guitar for 2 years (even though I just wanted to shred on electric after hearing Enter Sandman LOL) The best thing I got out of it was a really good foundation in theory...

 

It's really tough, and I didn't take it seriously at all, epsecially cuz to really do it right yo've gotta grow out your nails, which I refused...you can get a thumb pick and three banjo type finger picks, but it's really not the same at all...but yeah man youreally need a really good teachr for proper thumb placement near the bridge and on the string, proper hand form, "pulling"/fingering the strings "into" the proper area of your hand, foot placement on the stool and where the guitar rests on your leg, etc. etc.....

 

 

The thing is, there are books and vids out there that show it, but you really need a good teacher to make sure you're doing it right and really drill it into you...

 

Do your research and try out a few guys, there aer a lot of guys out there that claim to be classical teachers but really have no background in it and just try to wing it...make sure you see their credentials, no joke!!!

[jimwratt]

 

Hey dude. I would definitely advise getting a teacher to help you out with that...when it comes to classical, techique is SO important, ESPECIALLY the non fretboard hand... I was fortunate enough that when I was a kid my old man made me take classical lessons from a grad student at the Hartt School of Music who had majored in in and was going for his PhD in classical guitar for 2 years (even though I just wanted to shred on electric after hearing Enter Sandman LOL) The best thing I got out of it was a really good foundation in theory... It's really tough, and I didn't take it seriously at all, epsecially cuz to really do it right yo've gotta grow out your nails, which I refused...you can get a thumb pick and three banjo type finger picks, but it's really not the same at all...but yeah man youreally need a really good teachr for proper thumb placement near the bridge and on the string, proper hand form, "pulling"/fingering the strings "into" the proper area of your hand, foot placement on the stool and where the guitar rests on your leg, etc. etc..... The thing is, there are books and vids out there that show it, but you really need a good teacher to make sure you're doing it right and really drill it into you... Do your research and try out a few guys, there aer a lot of guys out there that claim to be classical teachers but really have no background in it and just try to wing it...make sure you see their credentials, no joke!!!

 

 

Yeah, I was afraid of that. It's funny because electric works the opposite way. If it works, then it works. I enjoyed classical but didn't have the time to keep up with the lessons as well as my electric lessons and other high school extra-curriculars. The only other classical pieces I'm in love with are Recuerdos and Asturias. Beyond that, I'm not as driven but still interested. I really liked my classical teacher, but I hated the endless etudes. Do you think lessons are worth it for these three pieces? My interests as far as nylon goes then branch into flamenco, for which I'd need a different teacher most likely.

[chevybusa]

Right on man! Well if your interest in classical is limited to 3 pieces, then you want to move on to flamenco, I wouldn't advise going for a classical teacher, cuz you're absolutely right that even though they're often lumped together and do share some similarities, flamenco really is a whole 'nother animal. As for the Prelude 1 in E Minor by Villa-Lobos piece, I guess the best thing to do is watch the master himself playing it...

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vx9fPeaD_Ns

 

As for flamenco, a good flamenco teacher is even harder to find than a classical one, but I'm sure you'll be able to find one even though it may take a while. Good luck man!

[JonR]

 

My interests as far as nylon goes then branch into flamenco, for which I'd need a different teacher most likely.

Yes, most probably. Flamenco is a discipline all its own, an entire cultural form including the dance and the clapped rhythms. (It makes little sense without the dance, IMO.)

AFAIK, it's rather like other folk or ethnic musics, in that it's based on some common stock patterns and motifs (with their own theoretical terminology of compas, falsetas, etc), interspersed with improvisation based on well-understood rules. Musicians and dancers improvise together, guiding each other.

 

But then, as soon as the dance element is removed and the pieces become more composed, it approaches the realm of classical guitar more closely (at least that of the Spanish composers, like Tarrega or Sor - Villa-Lobos was Brazilian of course).

[roughtrade]

[video=youtube;9uIW8n8x4-E]

 

Guiliani's 120 exercises for right hand.

 

Google that.

[MartinC]

Well the right hand is the whole enchilada. For someone who has experience playing jazz, moving to classical or flamenco is a matter mostly of training your strumming hand and your brain. I made that move back in the mid 80's-I was making a living playing guitar in rock/folk/top 40 bands and wanted to learn flamenco.

 

Flamenco players often learn a few classical pieces including Asturias(which is based on the flamenco form granadinas) and Recuerdos, which I always did with the flamenco five note tremelo as opposed to the four note classical one. You might want to pick one-classical or flamenco, because even the top level flamenco players are generally considered hacks by good classical players when playing classical music, and most all classical players are terrible flamenco players. There are a few notable exceptions.

 

Classical guitar is a game of inches-everthing is a very exact science as to method and technique. You could take a few lessons and learn those pieces, but any decent classical player will no doubt consider your interpretation wanting. That is not to discourage you, but to let you know that there are people who have spent a lifetime polishing their interpretations.

 

I've spent a few decades studying flamenco and could write a book on what not to do. I've also learned some of what needs to be done to be a credible flamenco player, and it goes way beyond just learning the music, which in itself, is no small task. It's very easy in almost all cases to identify a flamenco guitarist who has not spent years playing for dance. Their compas(specific rhythm for a given form) will normally be extremely weak, and their ability to improvise rhythmic devices non existant. If your compas is not perfect, anything else you do, no matter how well, will be dismissed by people who know flamenco. When you are playing with other flamencos, you can miss chords, notes, but you cannot lose the rhythm.

 

Then there is the cante accompaniment, which requires knowledge of the song melodies(there's a lot of them), as well as the traditional accompaniment(chords,etc).

 

You may just want to play the solos that various guitarists like Paco de Lucia, Vicente Amigo, or Tomatito play, but without learning how to accompany, it's likely that you'll never be able to convincingly even replicate them much less compose your own varations(which is expected of flamenco players) that sound "flamenco." Having said that, I have heard a few guys who have done just that.

 

Myself, I spent five years with a teacher, and then another four in a dance school playing for dance. The picado is the hardest technique-to this day despite having not practiced playing with a pick for the last 20 years, I can play single lines faster and cleaner with a pick. But the bigger task of becoming a flamenco guitarist involves learning something about the culture, the language, and the way of life. It is a huge undertaking best done in Spain if possible. If I had known how much was involved, I might have left it alone. But I didn't and now I'm freakin cursed.

[jimwratt]

 

Well the right hand is the whole enchilada. For someone who has experience playing jazz, moving to classical or flamenco is a matter mostly of training your strumming hand and your brain. I made that move back in the mid 80's-I was making a living playing guitar in rock/folk/top 40 bands and wanted to learn flamenco. Flamenco players often learn a few classical pieces including Asturias(which is based on the flamenco form granadinas) and Recuerdos, which I always did with the flamenco five note tremelo as opposed to the four note classical one. You might want to pick one-classical or flamenco, because even the top level flamenco players are generally considered hacks by good classical players when playing classical music, and most all classical players are terrible flamenco players. There are a few notable exceptions. Classical guitar is a game of inches-everthing is a very exact science as to method and technique. You could take a few lessons and learn those pieces, but any decent classical player will no doubt consider your interpretation wanting. That is not to discourage you, but to let you know that there are people who have spent a lifetime polishing their interpretations. I've spent a few decades studying flamenco and could write a book on what not to do. I've also learned some of what needs to be done to be a credible flamenco player, and it goes way beyond just learning the music, which in itself, is no small task. It's very easy in almost all cases to identify a flamenco guitarist who has not spent years playing for dance. Their compas(specific rhythm for a given form) will normally be extremely weak, and their ability to improvise rhythmic devices non existant. If your compas is not perfect, anything else you do, no matter how well, will be dismissed by people who know flamenco. When you are playing with other flamencos, you can miss chords, notes, but you cannot lose the rhythm. Then there is the cante accompaniment, which requires knowledge of the song melodies(there's a lot of them), as well as the traditional accompaniment(chords,etc). You may just want to play the solos that various guitarists like Paco de Lucia, Vicente Amigo, or Tomatito play, but without learning how to accompany, it's likely that you'll never be able to convincingly even replicate them much less compose your own varations(which is expected of flamenco players) that sound "flamenco." Having said that, I have heard a few guys who have done just that. Myself, I spent five years with a teacher, and then another four in a dance school playing for dance. The picado is the hardest technique-to this day despite having not practiced playing with a pick for the last 20 years, I can play single lines faster and cleaner with a pick. But the bigger task of becoming a flamenco guitarist involves learning something about the culture, the language, and the way of life. It is a huge undertaking best done in Spain if possible. If I had known how much was involved, I might have left it alone. But I didn't and now I'm freakin cursed.

 

 

I totally get where you're coming from (kind of like when classical-only guys try to play rock or blues). I wouldn't attempt to jump styles. I'm kind of in the same boat as the classical guys in college who wanted to learn to play Crazy Train and Welcome to the Jungle. I don't think they were aiming at joining a bar band or anything. I just want to play a few pieces for my own enjoyment and so that I can finally play something my wife might like (she pretty much doesn't like metal, jazz, or blues). She loves reggaeton and bachata, which are NOT options. I'd certainly love to learn the more ethnographic aspects of the Flamenco art form, but there are a handful of flamenco solos that are just lovely as can be. I'm not a greedy player, I just want to add something new to my playing that is different than what I've done. Given everything that I've been through training wise with rock, I wouldn't imagine I could just grab a tab and head to the nearest club.

[jimwratt]

Update: after a few days of consistent practice, the chord roll in Prelude 1 is much smoother than I could have expected it would be after several months. I'm pretty happy about that. I'm also adding Bach's cello suite 1 prelude, Gaspar Sanz's Canarios, and Pagannini's 24th Caprice to my list.

 

I'm also going to attempt to put myself on a tremolo training program because that's the one technique I could never do well. How long does it take most people to develop any appreciable level of fluidity with it on average?

 

 

 

As for flamenco, a good flamenco teacher is even harder to find than a classical one, but I'm sure you'll be able to find one even though it may take a while. Good luck man!

 

 

And holy {censored} at that retune in the middle of the piece. Forget how well he plays it, THAT is the ultimate level of technique. When you can deal with irrelevant or trivial crap without affecting the flow of the piece.

[MartinC]

Tremolo can be fairly easy to get sounding good. A few months of solid practice and you'll most likely be doing well. Concentrate on eveness. Four, or five, even notes. Also, a trick is to play the trem notes first, then play the bass note immediately. Think about the trem notes coming first, then the bass. This gives the bass melody more forward motion and brings it out more. Another tip is to practice the three or four trem notes on the "b" string more than the others. That is the hardest one and if you get that working, the rest are easier. Also, play all the notes, including the bass, on one string. Finally, play the bass note and then the trem notes on a lower string- that's a nice way to stretch your hand. Another thing is to develop the ability to change the melody note during the three or four note tremelo thing. That really helps even things out. In other words, don't just always play one pitch for the three or four trem notes-play a melody. Recuerdos is a pretty good tremolo workout, but there are other things in various flamenco numbers that are much more difficult so when you've got the piece down, look at some Paco de Lucia transcribtions to develop the technique further. Sorry if I got in a bit of a rant above. As soon as flamenco comes up, I start frothing.

[jimwratt]

 

Tremolo can be fairly easy to get sounding good. A few months of solid practice and you'll most likely be doing well. Concentrate on eveness. Four, or five, even notes. Also, a trick is to play the trem notes first, then play the bass note immediately. Think about the trem notes coming first, then the bass. This gives the bass melody more forward motion and brings it out more. Another tip is to practice the three or four trem notes on the "b" string more than the others. That is the hardest one and if you get that working, the rest are easier. Also, play all the notes, including the bass, on one string. Finally, play the bass note and then the trem notes on a lower string- that's a nice way to stretch your hand. Another thing is to develop the ability to change the melody note during the three or four note tremelo thing. That really helps even things out. In other words, don't just always play one pitch for the three or four trem notes-play a melody. Recuerdos is a pretty good tremolo workout, but there are other things in various flamenco numbers that are much more difficult so when you've got the piece down, look at some Paco de Lucia transcribtions to develop the technique further. Sorry if I got in a bit of a rant above. As soon as flamenco comes up, I start frothing.

 

 

Haha, it's cool. Flamenco is worth it. What's tripping me out about all of this is that I've never really been drawn to the steel string acoustic guitar. I've seen Tommy Emmanuel play several times and it's all wonderful music, but I don't want to play like that. The 19th and 20th century Spanish composers and flamenco on the other hand, I have to get a piece of the action...even a crumb.

[MartinC]

I saw Tommy recently and he was really great, but I enjoyed the opening duo of Frank Vignola and Vinny Raniolo just as much. I thought Tommy was really crafty in that he didn't have a backing band, but brought out frank and vinnie for a set- getting the same effect for free.

[Jasco]

...make sure you see their credentials, no joke!!!

 

Hear their credentials.