New Roland GR-55 Guitar to MIDI processor with COSM guitar processing.

[Anderton]

From the Harmony Central YouTube channel...

 

[video=youtube;kWweo5jJneg]

[neuro-feed]

How deep are the editing features in the GR55 compared to the GR33? The reason I never moved onward to the GR20 was because I preferred the GR33 for it's tweakability. I do hope they release a decent software editor for this. I can't live without mine for my GT Pro.

 

Regarding the tracking, unless Roland's made some bold advances in pitch-to-midi technology or the GR55 uses some other system (i.e. like Axon's), I seriously doubt it will be substantially better for bass. Ive found just about every one of these systems (including Axon) to be fairly useless for any bass frequencies lower than open A, as the tracking is simply too slow. Until I hear otherwise, Industrial Radio's Midi Bass is the best system out there for bass.

[Jackson_rhoads]

 

How deep are the editing features in the GR55 compared to the GR33? The reason I never moved onward to the GR20 was because I preferred the GR33 for it's tweakability. I do hope they release a decent software editor for this. I can't live without mine for my GT Pro. Regarding the tracking, unless Roland's made some bold advances in pitch-to-midi technology or the GR55 uses some other system (i.e. like Axon's), I seriously doubt it will be substantially better for bass. Ive found just about every one of these systems (including Axon) to be fairly useless for any bass frequencies lower than open A, as the tracking is simply too slow. Until I hear otherwise, Industrial Radio's Midi Bass is the best system out there for bass.

 

 

I'm only concerned about pitch-to-midi and wonder if the gr55 will even be better then the axon.

[barkilla]

I need some insight from all you Synth pros talking about "back in the day GR's" and Axon Specs:

 

I am about to sell my GR 33 to then have to pay some more 300 USD to purchase the GR 55.

The ONLY thing I need from this unit is the GUITAR TO MIDI SYNTHESIS. I am *only* interested in the MIDI SYNTHESIZED SOUNDS ALONE.

 

- I have a Zoom G9.2TT to take care of effects and modelling.

- I have many other pedals for effects. I do not need more effects per se.

- I have a Yamaha Synth with plenty MIDI PCMs which I can control with the GR 33

- I have a Roland SPDS Sample Pad, so I do not need the Looper

- I am looking for better quality PCM's, enhanced PCM features and better tracking.

 

What I am interested is in playing the 6th string as a Bass, The first string as a Flute, and the Middle 4 strings as a Piano, for example. Can this be done with my GR 33? I just bought my GR 33 and have been in the process of modifying my Tele to be able to attach the GK3. So I have no real experience in the field of Hexaphonic Guitar Synthesis. Now 1 month later the GR 55 comes out. So I am a little pissed but hey, its all rock and roll.

 

However, I'll do the investment if necessary because I am serious about Guitar Synthesis.

 

1) Do you honestly think I trully need to get the GR 55 soleley because of the alleged "better tracking" and 900 supposed MIDI PCM sounds (as opposed to 380ish on the GR 33) on the Double Synthesis Engine? Do you think that PCM sound quality is going to be better due to the integration of COSM Modelling?

 

2) How many MIDI PCMs can the GR 33 reproduce in addition to Regular Guitar Sound?

 

I believe can only play bass and my regular guitar sound at the same time with my GR 33 (one MIDI PCM + Regular Guitar Sound). Correct me here if I am wrong. I believe I can not play MIDI PCM bass, MIDI PCM Piano AND Regular Guitar Sound on my GR33, as is the case with the GR 55. This is very important for me and I will invest for the better multi instrumenting capabilities of the GR 55 if it were the actual case.

 

Thank you in advanced.

[shredmiyagi]

I need some insight from all you Synth pros talking about "back in the day GR's" and Axon Specs:

 

Well, I'll give you quick Axon insight. You can split strings to trigger different synths on the AX-100... unlike the Roland gear, you have almost every imaginable parameter at your control with the Axon. You can assign CC#, program changes, anything a typical midi controller can do, and you can even individually edit strings/fret positions/etc (believe each string is a diff. midi channel). You can assign 2 expression pedals to affect any midi parameter... 2 footswitches... obviously a whole separate midi controller can chain into the Axon..

 

So you can do almost anything that pops in your mind. Hell, I *think* you can theoretically program the Axon to put more delay from your Lexicon PCM80 the higher you play on the fretboard, and have E and A strings trigger bass off your laptop's Logic DAW while D/G/B are piano strings off a Motif and high E triggers samples on Logic. Never actually tried that, but I did do some wacky things. Did I mention you can edit the splits depending on were you pick the strings? for me, it just wasn't practical enough to use since I was driven crazy by the glitch ghost notes. All I really wanted was a great compositional tool, and I spent more time editing out bad notes and screwed up rhythm figures than playing or thinking.

 

I share the doubts that some people are mentioning about GR-55.. To answer your 1st question, my HUNCH is Roland boasts about the GR-55's "better than ever" tracking... 95% because of the integration of COSM and VG-style modeling. The VG technology was brilliant. Correct me if I'm wrong (I never owned a GR after the GR09), but the GR series never had "HRM modeling" (pads, basses, synth leads, etc. on the VG-8).. which IMO was brilliant. Basically felt like almost no latency/glitch whatsoever. Took a backseat with the 88, and obv. the 99 brought all the synth stuff back and expanded it a bit.

 

Anyway, seems like Roland has moved towards finally integrating that technology with the GR, and rightfully so. And by mixing COSM sounds, it just further provides the audio trick of giving you an immediate response so that the latency on your synth patch goes unnoticed. Now my hunch might be wrong... maybe the pitch-to-midi conversion is better than ever and actually close to Axon's .. but even so, it will obviously have plenty of editing limits. And by having double synthesis, the sounds will obviously be stronger.

 

But if memory serves me right... GRs have generally offered 1 or 2 bass/piano split patches, no? Don't see why you wouldn't be able to have that going with the COSM real guitar sound. I believe they're completely unrelated engines working together in 1 box...

[germanicus2112]

Well, I'll give you quick Axon insight. You can split strings to trigger different synths on the AX-100... unlike the Roland gear, you have almost every imaginable parameter at your control with the Axon. You can assign CC#, program changes, anything a typical midi controller can do, and you can even individually edit strings/fret positions/etc (believe each string is a diff. midi channel). You can assign 2 expression pedals to affect any midi parameter... 2 footswitches... obviously a whole separate midi controller can chain into the Axon.. So you can do almost anything that pops in your mind. Hell, I *think* you can theoretically program the Axon to put more delay from your Lexicon PCM80 the higher you play on the fretboard, and have E and A strings trigger bass off your laptop's Logic DAW while D/G/B are piano strings off a Motif and high E triggers samples on Logic. Never actually tried that, but I did do some wacky things. Did I mention you can edit the splits depending on were you pick the strings? for me, it just wasn't practical enough to use since I was driven crazy by the glitch ghost notes. All I really wanted was a great compositional tool, and I spent more time editing out bad notes and screwed up rhythm figures than playing or thinking. I share the doubts that some people are mentioning about GR-55.. To answer your 1st question, my HUNCH is Roland boasts about the GR-55's "better than ever" tracking... 95% because of the integration of COSM and VG-style modeling. The VG technology was brilliant. Correct me if I'm wrong (I never owned a GR after the GR09), but the GR series never had "HRM modeling" (pads, basses, synth leads, etc. on the VG-8).. which IMO was brilliant. Basically felt like almost no latency/glitch whatsoever. Took a backseat with the 88, and obv. the 99 brought all the synth stuff back and expanded it a bit. Anyway, seems like Roland has moved towards finally integrating that technology with the GR, and rightfully so. And by mixing COSM sounds, it just further provides the audio trick of giving you an immediate response so that the latency on your synth patch goes unnoticed. Now my hunch might be wrong... maybe the pitch-to-midi conversion is better than ever and actually close to Axon's .. but even so, it will obviously have plenty of editing limits. And by having double synthesis, the sounds will obviously be stronger. But if memory serves me right... GRs have generally offered 1 or 2 bass/piano split patches, no? Don't see why you wouldn't be able to have that going with the COSM real guitar sound. I believe they're completely unrelated engines working together in 1 box...

 

The purported tracking speed improvements have nothing to do with the COSM modelling. Cosm doesnt track pitch. COSM/HRM modelling acts directly on the strings signal, and isnt triggering anything. You get amazingly fast response with cosm/HRM because its essentially a suped up signal polyphonic processor. Roland is claiming a completely new Guitar-to-Midi conversion process in the gr55. Whether they bought axons tech, or developed something comparable who knows, but the reports from those who played it at NAMM (so far) are very supportive of Rolands claims.

 

Im really thinking the combination of the Gr-55 and a JT Variax will be ridiculously versatile (and compact) for live use.

[shredmiyagi]

Well we'll see. My point was just pessimism on Roland's claim of an all new pitch conversion process. We're gonna have to wait for someone to run it through some software or synths to truly test the speed.

 

In the demos, it seemed like every patch had a COSM blend.. Or it sounded like VG/HRM modeling blending with PCM. My guess was that this just helps mask the PCM samples that traditionally had latency issues.. Something previous GR synths did not do.

 

Quite frankly I'd be shocked if Roland matched Axons speed, unless they did just buy the technology finally!

[cincy_cosmo]

 

I really, really wish I could play keyboards, because it's a helluva lot cheaper to buy a decent MIDI USB controller like an Axiom are the like if the end goal is to just trigger software instruments on a computer, or even a box like the JV-1080. As such it's cost me a lot of money and frustration so far via the GI-20, YRG controller, etc.

 

 

Years ago on HC I was conversing with a guy... whining about the tracking and latency of my GR-33. He suggested what I should do is learn keys. I picked up a cheap Roland XP-50 JV series synth. I am not GOOD at it, but I can pound chords and do some improvisation....and by having a sequencing keyboard and learning sequencing I can get around most of my shortcomings for recording. I replaced the XP-50 last year with a Fantom X6. Staying generation -2 or -3 keeps costs down. I would be all over a guitar synth again, however, if one would track reliably without glitches. So I'm going to be watching to see what real end users reviews are when the GR-55 ships and people use it a few weeks. I'm guessing the GR-55 will be an evolution, not a revolution, in guitar synths.

[the.red.hill]

[video=youtube;kZBq5_aBGbU]

[neuro-feed]

 

Years ago on HC I was conversing with a guy... whining about the tracking and latency of my GR-33. He suggested what I should do is learn keys. I picked up a cheap Roland XP-50 JV series synth. I am not GOOD at it, but I can pound chords and do some improvisation....and by having a sequencing keyboard and learning sequencing I can get around most of my shortcomings for recording. I replaced the XP-50 last year with a Fantom X6. Staying generation -2 or -3 keeps costs down. I would be all over a guitar synth again, however, if one would track reliably without glitches. So I'm going to be watching to see what real end users reviews are when the GR-55 ships and people use it a few weeks. I'm guessing the GR-55 will be an evolution, not a revolution, in guitar synths.

 

 

Any pitch-to-midi conversion process is going to exhibit latency that pales in comparison to a keyboard, and I don't care ho much better Axon's technology is/was to Roland's it still CANNOT track bass well enough. I had an Axon AX-50, and while it was deep in editing features and offered far more versatility than the Roland units (i.e. assign sounds to each string, split zones on your guitar, etc), I also had trouble getting it to work for me without triggering false notes. I actually prefer my GR-33 better because it's simple to edit and I was able to fine tune the setup and play feel to make it very fast and intuitive.

 

The best options out there for guitarists (right now) in terms of versatility, fastest latency, and no false triggers (unless you actually hit a wrong note) are either a keyboard-style guitar with pressure sensitive fret keys (i.e. a StarrLabs Ztar, and old Casio DG20, or the new Kitara that exhibited at this year's NAMM), or Industrial Radio's proprietary neck sensor process that senses pitch via its piezo bridge and sensors in the neck.

[aliensporebomb]

 

I'm curious to see how external synth tracking goes. If it is indeed "twice as fast" as the last Roland model (.. VG-99, GI-20?), then that would mean it's in Axon territory. I sold my AX100 a month ago from pure frustration and kind of agree with the "just play keyboard" sentiment. The time I spent editing more complicated sections basically could've been spent practicing the keyboard part and editing that a whole lot less. I'm a big fan of my VG-8EX for just the synth/pitch/tuning/acoustic effects; don't have a VG-99 though it's crossed my mind many a time and I have decent experience using one. On the other hand, the killing point has been that the VG and GR series synth sounds are a clear step behind top-of-the-line synths. Which made the Axon great... but the worst part of the Axon after plenty of tweaking... always came back to ghost notes. I used a Godin/piezo system, a Fender Roland Ready Strat, and a GK3 on my main gtr.. spent plenty of time adjusting sensitivity and other Axon parameters.... It truly triggers fast as hell, but whenever I'd get it to a near perfect, comfortable level of playing... completely off-key ghost notes would sputter all over the place. Made life hell in Finale, Reason, Logic and Ableton unless I'm playing parts so simple... again... I could just play them on keyboard. Atleast with the GM-70 and my old Roland G505, I'd understand that I'm working with a delay, and I was able to adjust my playing. I don't know why, but my best software midi results came from that unit. The Axon would shine when I triggered a synth module (Triton rack) and blended with my true guitar signal... the ghost notes would get lost in my real guitar's tone. But every time I recorded... I'd just be horrified at the faulty notes. Most fun you can have is playing fast guitar solos with the Axon. But playing tight parts or chords is a nightmare. ANYWAY... this brings me to the GR-55. I'm intrigued. Yes, I'd love to have the Axon's rate of pitch-to-conversion available to me since I sold it.. and the GR55 would be much useful and practical in live situations. But to me... the GR series has kind of been trapped in the early 90s as far as sonic qualities. I was impressed little bit with the demos, but what has me wondering is the price. $700 for the amount of features is kind of cheap. I get that electronics/digital technology is cheaper... but a VG-99 is priced new at $1400 and many people reason it's worth it. Will the 55's COSM be on par with even "half" a VG-99? Will the standalone PCM sounds be an upgrade from the GR-20? I'm gonna wait a month after it comes out to hear the reviews, because it sounds promising, but I'm pessimistic about new Roland products.

 

 

Regarding "Synth Sounds" here are two tracks I've done with internal VG-99 sounds only:

 

td2lR5WXOQ0

Guitar + VG99 + Looper

 

hE_izU1YHFM

Guitar + VG99 + Looper

 

Now compare that to the type of synth sounds you get with the GR-55. The beauty of the VG99 is that the way you stroke the strings has a large effect on how sounds are generated in the synth realm, it's dynamic, organic, fluid.

 

The difference with the GR-55: the VG-99 does have guitar to midi, it does have a GR300 inside but none of the sounds I used here are either of those. They are my own programs. And there's no tracking delay. None. Even if the GR-55 is twice as fast than the previous GR product there's still some delay there somewhere.

 

If you get your hands on a GR-55 I'd check the low E-string around the first five frets and do fast runs there on the 55 to see how it does. If it can cut it let me know!

 

Back to the 99: the sounds you're hearing is not synthesizer at all but rather massively processed guitar. I'm telling you the VG-99 is like a hexaphonic Eventide Harmonizer and effects rack with some synth capability. And a guitar, amp and effect modeler. And an audio interface. And a midi interface. And a tuner.

 

So the GR-55 having half a VG-99 minus the polyphonic pitch transposer will produce some cool results, no doubt in my mind. But the VG-99 is as expensive as it is because it has so much in it and can do a lot more in some ways.

 

I've said it before and I'll said it again: it's so deep that Roland probably doesn't known what its selling. And, also, that if you get one you'll need to spend about a year figuring it all out. Think of it as a portable laptop computer for your guitar with as many options as a personal pc.

[Polaris20]

 

Years ago on HC I was conversing with a guy... whining about the tracking and latency of my GR-33. He suggested what I should do is learn keys. I picked up a cheap Roland XP-50 JV series synth. I am not GOOD at it, but I can pound chords and do some improvisation....and by having a sequencing keyboard and learning sequencing I can get around most of my shortcomings for recording. I replaced the XP-50 last year with a Fantom X6. Staying generation -2 or -3 keeps costs down. I would be all over a guitar synth again, however, if one would track reliably without glitches. So I'm going to be watching to see what real end users reviews are when the GR-55 ships and people use it a few weeks. I'm guessing the GR-55 will be an evolution, not a revolution, in guitar synths.

 

 

I'm actually going down a slightly different road. I'm about a month out from getting a Starr Labs ZTar Z5. While I might still end up with a GR-55 for it's mix of PCM and VG-esque COSM capabilities, for soft synths and musical notation I highly doubt it'll ever approach a keyboard or ZTar, which is effectively a guitar-shaped keyboard controller.

[StompboxMan]

 

While I understand that feature is important to you personally, I imagine many others don't really care, myself included. Given the "simplicity" angle Roland seems to be going for here with the GR-20 earlier and now the 55, it seems they agree. There are players like you, sure. But guitarists as a whole are a fickle, technophobic lot that I think Roland has had a hard time reeling in with guitar synth stuff. They probably feel that the simpler the better, and confusing them with stuff they may never use (6 sounds per string? Really?) might scare them off. Just a thought.

 

 

The Feature could have been included and only advanced players would use it. Beginners would stick with 2 PCM sounds over all guitar stings Presets while advanced players could program 24 PCM sounds over 6 strings in user Banks. The GR-55 could been for both types of players.

[StompboxMan]

 

I need some insight from all you Synth pros talking about "back in the day GR's" and Axon Specs: I am about to sell my GR 33 to then have to pay some more 300 USD to purchase the GR 55. 1) Do you honestly think I trully need to get the GR 55 soleley because of the alleged "better tracking" and 900 supposed MIDI PCM sounds (as opposed to 380ish on the GR 33) on the Double Synthesis Engine? Do you think that PCM sound quality is going to be better due to the integration of COSM Modelling? 2) How many MIDI PCMs can the GR 33 reproduce in addition to Regular Guitar Sound? I believe can only play bass and my regular guitar sound at the same time with my GR 33 (one MIDI PCM + Regular Guitar Sound). Correct me here if I am wrong. I believe I can not play MIDI PCM bass, MIDI PCM Piano AND Regular Guitar Sound on my GR33, as is the case with the GR 55. This is very important for me and I will invest for the better multi instrumenting capabilities of the GR 55 if it were the actual case. Thank you in advanced.

 

 

1. The Tracking is the same. I played the GR-55 at NAMM is still does the glitch. The GR-33 sounds are far more unique than those of the GR-55. The GR-33 has an Effects loop to add your own effects. The GR-55 does not have an Effects loop!

 

2. The GR-33 and the GR-55 have 6 Midi outs, one for each string. The GR-33 and GR-50 can play 2 PCM sounds over 6 stings. The GR-55 can also add digital modeling COSM sounds but the GR-33 has the Effects loop for adding all the effects you own.

[neuro-feed]

 

1. The Tracking is the same. I played the GR-55 at NAMM is still does the glitch. The GR-33 sounds are far more unique than those of the GR-55. The GR-33 has an Effects loop to add your own effects. The GR-55 does not have an Effects loop! 2. The GR-33 and the GR-55 have 6 Midi outs, one for each string. The GR-33 and GR-50 can play 2 PCM sounds over 6 stings. The GR-55 can also add digital modeling COSM sounds but the GR-33 has the Effects loop for adding all the effects you own.

 

 

I think a lot of potential guitar synth players quickly get discouraged with these units because they can't simply plug-and-go or utilize their conventional guitar playing style (i.e. scrapes, ghost notes, marking rhythm, etc). Personally, I've never felt the Roland guitar synth units were lacking in tracking speed, at least when using their on board sounds, and I find them more forgiving with typical guitar playing than the Axon. Some patches are slower than others, such as pianos, but you've got to go into each patch and make necessary adjustments to various parameters to maximize performance through a combination of pickup sensitivity, play performance (The "accl" options really improve tracking speed, IMO), effects (I found that adding compression to my patches helped me lock in better to keep my playing consistent and even, thus eliminating spikey playing and the potential for glitches and false notes), and of course your guitar should have an optimal setup (I've sometimes had to re-adjust patch setups as strings settled in or got duller/older).

 

The GR-55 literature states, "Over 900 of Roland's latest fully editable PCM sounds, including pianos, organs, strings, vintage synths, and much more", while the GR-33 only had 384. I fail to see how the GR-55 wouldn't be able to cover most, if not all, of the GR-33's internal sounds, though I'm not sure from what synths the GR-55 is deriving it's sounds. Regardless, I'll take 900 sounds over 384.

[Polaris20]

 

1. The Tracking is the same. I played the GR-55 at NAMM is still does the glitch. The GR-33 sounds are far more unique than those of the GR-55. The GR-33 has an Effects loop to add your own effects. The GR-55 does not have an Effects loop! 2. The GR-33 and the GR-55 have 6 Midi outs, one for each string. The GR-33 and GR-50 can play 2 PCM sounds over 6 stings. The GR-55 can also add digital modeling COSM sounds but the GR-33 has the Effects loop for adding all the effects you own.

 

 

The Roland guys must have been pissed that you stood there long enough to try all 900 sounds to make that judgment call.

[cincy_cosmo]

So let me ask this....since I've been out of guitar synths for a couple of years...who is making good 13 pin pickup axes these days. I used to own a Brian Moore which was great but pricey...and later I owned a Fender Roland Ready which was not so pricey but didn't track as well.

[neuro-feed]

 

So let me ask this....since I've been out of guitar synths for a couple of years...who is making good 13 pin pickup axes these days. I used to own a Brian Moore which was great but pricey...and later I owned a Fender Roland Ready which was not so pricey but didn't track as well.

 

 

Godin. Best bang for the buck, IMO. I own an older LGXSA, but MF has the XTSA for $999 new. I've seen used LGXSA's go for under $800. Carvin makes them as well. Both feature piezo saddles rather than the Roland GK PUP like the Roland ready Strat.

[germanicus2112]

Godin. The xtsa is a very nice guitar with great features for the price. If you have more to spend the LGXT is fantastic.

[neuro-feed]

FYI, Roland has just uploaded the manual. You can download it from their support/manuals section:

 

http://www.rolandus.com/support/product_manuals/?group=3

 

I plan on reading over this very carefully.

[cincy_cosmo]

 

FYI, Roland has just uploaded the manual. You can download it from their support/manuals section: http://www.rolandus.com/support/product_manuals/?group=3 I plan on reading over this very carefully.

 

 

Good find! Thanks

[MattMayfield]

 

FYI, Roland has just uploaded the manual. You can download it from their support/manuals section: http://www.rolandus.com/support/product_manuals/?group=3 I plan on reading over this very carefully.

 

 

Great! Thanks for the link.

 

I just noticed on page 29, that unlike the VG-99, you cannot pitch shift 12-string guitars. Not a big deal for me, but it seemed worth pointing out that in the GR-55 you trade off some of the modeling flexibility to gain the synth/MIDI features.

[cvor]

Anyone know if you can mute the normal guitar sound (through the magnetic pickup) within a preset when outputting a cosm sound to the same guitar amp. Not exactly familiar with the technology on the Vg-99 or this so....

[neuro-feed]

 

Anyone know if you can mute the normal guitar sound (through the magnetic pickup) within a preset when outputting a cosm sound to the same guitar amp. Not exactly familiar with the technology on the Vg-99 or this so....

 

 

Yes you can. You can route up to 4 sounds out per patch (2 PCM synth sounds, 1 COSM guitar sound, and your clean real guitar) turning any of them either on or off per patch. The other cool thing I am confirming after glancing through the manual is that you can route send either your processed or unprocessed guitar out through the guitar output, giving you indeependent control over synths from guitar COSM sounds. Cool.

[barkilla]

Can you load a PCM sound bank into the USB port of the GR55 so you dont have to haul your PC/Laptop for live soft synth/PCM MIDI bank data?

 

 

I have a GR33 and thinking about selling it and paying 300 more for a gr55,? however, I think maybe it is best if I get a Macbook 2gb Ram laptop instead as I already have an audio interface. How would tracking be using a GR 33 and a Macbook Laptop 2gb Ram to use soft synths? What I am worried here is about the LATENCY because I am thinking about using this setup live.

 

Do you think the latency will be a non issue if I just use my GR 33 to control the Laptop's PCMs?