If you are a GOOD jazz player

[pink floyd cramer]

-how did you get good? Did you spend more time transcribing solos and voicings or more time learning theory (ala Mark Levine's book, classes/lessons etc)?

 

I ask this because I am transcribing/reading solos with the aim of getting some new patterns under my fingers. I am also tired of playing the same old "vanilla" scale tones, want to spice things up some. I may be going about things wrong and want to hear how some of you others developed as a player.

 

Not many jazzers here, I know, but (hopefully) enough to give some good input.

[keyman-sam]

Im starting to learn jazz piano myself. Bought me a coupla jazz books very recently (within 1 week) and gonna get me a music subscription service next month. Now i'm learning Lizst leibestraum which is classical music, but thats another story.

[rvandenbroeck]

I don't know if I'm "good" but I can say that if you want to get good at any style, on any instrument, play it every day.

 

Personally, when I teach piano, I recommend playing at least 30 minutes a day (preferably an hour a day), give or take. Plus, learn LOTS of songs... it's a lot more fun. than just practicing chords, scales, and voicings (which you still need to do, to a degree).

 

My $0.02

[jazzwee]

I would hesitate to even approach the word "good" since I know what a real good jazz musician sounds like. Let me just say that you can consider this a lifetime adventure. If you seriously get into it, you will be a permanent student. It is also quite humbling. I reserve the word "good" for those I pay to watch.

 

So how to learn? I only have one basic answer and that is to learn from someone much better than you. Way better.

 

The theory side you can learn by reading Levine and other books but the practical side is really not suited to self-study so much. You will learn, IMHO, at a fraction of the time if you don't work with a real jazz professional. Unfortunately this is not an option for many in small towns, but I would even consider learning online or by phone with someone who really knows jazz.

 

I've had the benefit of studying with the best teachers and it makes a big difference (I've had some bad teachers too so I can compare). Even if you're advanced, I would ask a passing musician to give you a master class.

 

If you don't learn from a professional jazz teacher, you may have to unlearn a few things and for goodness sake, don't learn jazz from a classical music teacher.

[andromedas]

i took a jazz ba at middlesex college, london.

 

that kicked me up the arse.

 

i knew jack before that.

[pink floyd cramer]

The closest I have to a teacher/mentor is a local player who gets all the gigs around here but refers alot of work (mostly solo piano/cocktail) to me. Once a week I do the early shift at a place and hang out when he comes in for the late shift. I don't ask that many Q's, mostly just observe and occasionally request a tune. He is more trad jazz but a great player and I learn alot from him.

 

Thinking I need to find some other players who are willing to get together and play, just for the practice. I do a couple jazz combo type gigs a year get but that's obviously not enough.

 

How about: (for practice routine)

 

1-2 hours- just playing (with a click/drum machine) trying to execute what I hear in my head. Also taking what I already know and putting it in different keys and tempos.

 

1 hour- learning theory etc

 

1/2 to 1 hr transcribing or reading through transcriptions of players I like

 

4 hours + arguing about digital pianos or Hammond clones on the internet- VERY important:D

 

 

Once again, what works for you? (forget the "good" caveat)

[mate_stubb]

In this case, there really is finally a book worthy of your attention - the Mark Levine jazz piano book:

 

http://www.amazon.com/Jazz-Piano-Book-Mark-Levine/dp/0961470151

 

If you can read music on a staff and are not an absolute beginning player, this Bud's for you...

[Prodigul]

yea, I completely agree about the benefit of studying under a veteran jazz player. Earlier this year I sat down with an accomplished player for around an hour. He didnt teach me anything specific, just said what he was doing, did it, and then moved on. Just that one session got my playing into gear so much more than all the book studying I had done. In my mind its hard to understand how all the different jazz/blues concepts fit together into a cohesive piece until you watch and learn from a real player. Maybe if you could get video of good players, but just recordings dont really do it justice in my view.

[jazzwee]

 

Originally posted by pink floyd cramer The closest I have to a teacher/mentor is a local player who gets all the gigs around here but refers alot of work (mostly solo piano/cocktail) to me. Once a week I do the early shift at a place and hang out when he comes in for the late shift. I don't ask that many Q's, mostly just observe and occasionally request a tune. He is more trad jazz but a great player and I learn alot from him. Thinking I need to find some other players who are willing to get together and play, just for the practice. I do a couple jazz combo type gigs a year get but that's obviously not enough. How about: (for practice routine) 1-2 hours- just playing (with a click/drum machine) trying to execute what I hear in my head. Also taking what I already know and putting it in different keys and tempos. 1 hour- learning theory etc 1/2 to 1 hr transcribing or reading through transcriptions of players I like 4 hours + arguing about digital pianos or Hammond clones on the internet- VERY important:D Once again, what works for you? (forget the "good" caveat)

 

 

 

Once you've learned all the rules, you then go back to the recordings to enhance your knowledge this is something that you build up over time and you do things like transcribe which you already said. However, there are things that you may not have a good understanding off yet.

 

I'll just mention a few issues that teachers will point out.

 

1. Rhythm - This is a major aspect of the feel of jazz. Swing at different tempos. Playing ahead of the beat or behind the beat. Mixing both. Swing feel when comping on the LH. The feel of the line on the RH. Someone has to listen and then analyze this.

 

2. Harmony - Voicings for LH cluster chords, tenths, bud powell 1/7, Bill Evans 3/7, walking tenths.

 

3. RH Solo - Chord tones vs. extensions -- where to put on which beat, what scales to use, going outside, patterns to practice, fingering. Soloing in thirds. Octaves. Blues. Licks.

 

4. Tunes - Arrangements

 

5. Music Theory -

 

I'm sure there are many more as this is just top of my head.

 

You have to ask yourself where you are with all these? It takes a lot of time to learn this even with a teacher so I can imagine how long it takes without one as you will have to unlearn certain things.

 

Definitely Music theory is something you can learn without a teacher so go read up on the Mark Levine books. Probably Rhythm is the most important one to learn from a teacher.

 

The problem is without some guidance, practicing what you hear in your head assumes what you hear is correct. Even on solos, there are certain things that can't really be heard well (think of a diminished scale here) in your ear. So that's why we have to mix in the theory also and after awhile it is embedded as a memory so you're not thinking about it anymore.

[suitandtieguy]

i would never call myself a good jazz player, in fact 6 years ago the drumkit of the STGB said "{censored} OFF JAZZ SNOB" on the kick drum. when we played Jim's Steakhouse we needed to get the "{censored}" and "SNOB" off of it so it just said "OFF JAZZ" which is actually very appropriate.

 

however, someone i know who plays an instrument called "jazz saxophone" told me last week that i was finally starting to play some "real jazz" and that was good because 6 years ago when he saw me apparently i was "faking it." this was funny because last week he saw me play 3 blues tunes and "summertime", which is pretty much a blues tune, but 6 years ago i was trying to play standards.

 

alot of the jazz musicians i like would never call themselves "jazz musicians", they'd say things like "i play the blues" or "we play black music" or "i don't play {censored}ing trumpet. i play music."

 

i'm not sure if what i'm saying makes any sense or contributes, but something i am trying to point out is one of the things to avoid in jazz is over-think. {censored} licks, {censored} scale-switching, {censored} side-stepping, {censored} substitution: just play the tune and make sure you groove.

 

remember that your solo should evoke the melody of the song. in fact, if you just ornament the melody ... your soloing is going to be better than 99 percent of jazz majors at state and private schools in this country. make sure you feel the melody too ... if it sounds like you're reading you've failed.

 

and speaking of reading, don't. well, read at home sure ... but never have the book out at a gig. that's the best way to make sure your set is going to bite it.

 

transcribing solos is nice, but you'll get just as much out of learning little bits here and there. spend time with just a few bars and nail the phrase that the artist is playing. you don't need to write it down, in fact you'll probably forget it. however there's part of your brain that learned from it and the time you spent with those little bits will seep through while you're playing.

 

yeah i don't know if my perspective relates to what you're doing but i just thought i'd attempt to answer your question in my own way.

[pink floyd cramer]

Thanks STG as someone who tends to over-anal-ise at times I think that is very good advise. BTW I don't have much patience with jazz snobs either- I would rather play music for the average joe vs some dickhead sitting in the back with a scorecard. I

would rather be a good blues/funk/RnB player than a mediocre jazz player, of which there are legion.

[TheFoosa]

Originally posted by pink floyd cramer I would rather play music for the average joe vs some dickhead sitting in the back with a scorecard.

 

I hate the scorecard types...but at least they are listening for something. Unlike average joe's who yell Pearl Jam in between songs at my gigs (true story).

[jazzwee]

Of course you don't over analyze or intellectualize when you are playing. You do that when you PRACTICE.

 

There's a distinction here. Do you think magic is just going to come to your head without the practice? Once you've got the practice down, the playing should come from your soul.

 

In the meantime, practicing means learning all the things that this complex art requires. And that includes theories and scales. Although it may come via osmosis, for most people it takes a long time to do it like that. There is no osmosis to the theory though. You're not going to learn a jazz voicing by magic. You have to memorize and practice it so it no longer requires thought.

 

It really won't take long with a good teacher and LOTS of practice (and knowing what to practice). It might take long otherwise.

[-groovatious-]

 

Originally posted by jazzwee Of course you don't over analyze or intellectualize when you are playing. You do that when you PRACTICE. There's a distinction here. Do you think magic is just going to come to your head without the practice? Once you've got the practice down, the playing should come from your soul. In the meantime, practicing means learning all the things that this complex art requires. And that includes theories and scales. Although it may come via osmosis, for most people it takes a long time to do it like that. There is no osmosis to the theory though. You're not going to learn a jazz voicing by magic. You have to memorize and practice it so it no longer requires thought. It really won't take long with a good teacher and LOTS of practice (and knowing what to practice). It might take long otherwise.

 

 

+1

[Roald]

maybe the problem is I'm a rather bad jazz player (I'll proove it later on in groovatious Autumn Leaves thread ) but the attitude STG has is IMHO wrong.

 

"knowing stuff" and analysing famous players' styles (and other musical genres) is not limiting your playing, it is enhancing it massively.

 

jazz is not a style, it is a way of making music mainly by improvising. So, generally, you don't make music that is reduced and simple, like a pop song, as you don't have the time to think of a 'straight and simple' concept while you are improvising.

 

To make jazz interesting you need interesting chords and voicings, interesting licks and lines and you need to be able to throw o

[rvandenbroeck]

this is a really cool thread - I'm glad I came back and checked it out. You guys all kick ass!

[GigMan]

pfc -

I don't have an answer for your question but I wanted to tell you I LOVE your new signauture!

[Learning67]

Never used jazz instructional book ever.

 

Listen to jazz music. All the time. Learn the cannon of the major recordings. Listen to jazz.

 

LISTEN TO JAZZ.

 

Transcribe, practice, jam, play, gig....

 

BUT LISTEN to jazz.

 

Listen to

 

Bud Powell, Red Garland, Wynton Kelly, Ahmad Jamal, John COltrane, Miles Davis, Herbie Hancock, Lester Young, Charlie Parker, Coleman Hawkins, Sonny Stitt, Grant Green, Larry Young, Freddie Hubard, Cedar Walton, Billy Higgins, Sara Vaughn, Nina Simon, Carmen McCrae, Abbey Lincoln, Wayne Shorter, Bobby Timmons, Lee Morgan, George COleman, Ornett Colelman, Steve Coleman, Red Rodney, Bill Evans, Paul Motion, Eric Alexander, Joe Farnsworth, Wes Mongomery, Max Roach, SOnny Rollis, Clifford Brown, Hnak Mobley, Joe Henderson, Phineous Newborn Jr, Dizzy Gillespie, Don Byas, Louis Armstrong, Ella Fitzgerald, Duke Ellington, DOn CHerry, Charlie Haden, Cassandra Wilson, Jimmy Smith, George Benson, Joe Lavano, BIll Stewart...I could go on with another 50 names.

 

These are your books. Listen to them. If you dont listen to them, you wont swing.

 

Books dont teach you to swing. Recordings do.

 

And buy the CDs. Dont download the tunes. You need to know the albums because thats how GOOD jazz musicians refer to the music. Listen to the old guys. Devour everything made between WWII and 1968. THe new records (and I included newer names in that list up there) are built upon the old ones.

 

New in jazz is often redundant and uninspired. If you dont know Bud Powell's music...you aint playing jazz piano. No discussion. No debate.

[suitandtieguy]

 

Originally posted by Roald "knowing stuff" and analysing famous players' styles (and other musical genres) is not limiting your playing, it is enhancing it massively.

 

 

just for the record, i wasn't criticising "knowing stuff."

 

i was criticising scale-switching based on what chord you are in the progression, lick memorisation, sidestepping, and reading the book on the gig.

 

i suggested an alternate technique of analysing players' styles which i feel is better than trying to write down on manuscript paper what is probably going to be very very difficult to convey with conventional notation.

 

 

so if you think i have my head up my ass because Joe Metzka makes me want to vomit that's cool because as i said i don't think i'm a good jazz musician, but please don't put words in my mouth or concepts in my comment which weren't there.

 

 

btw, learning67's advice in this thread is my favourite so far.

[kooki_sf]

jazz isnt notes. jazz is feel.

[orangefunk]

Originally posted by suitandtieguy btw, learning67's advice in this thread is my favourite so far.

 

I like how you spell favourite (i.e. the english spelling)

 

 

I'm one of these guys who wonders what all the fuss is with wanting to play jazz, esp jazz standards and the american songbook.

 

I just love playing piano not really thinking whether it fits with a particular idiom, genre or style. I don't think I would have the patience or the time to dedicate my life to listening to a whole slew of 1940s-1950s records. I'd be a terrible jazz pianist, I'd be too busy doing cheesy smiles and more concerned with making sure my keyboard tie is at a jaunty angle..

 

For me (and I know this isn't really the poular view) the peak of jazz was the 1970s and probably whats going on now (I'm not a nostalgia freak! )... not because of wah wah guiatrs and rhodes solos, but because I just find that period of jazz really interesting whether it was Keith Jarrett, Oregon, Brazilian jazz, the european jazz scene, the whole ECM catalog... etc.. in addition the usual Herbie,Chick and Weather Report stuff.. oh and the jazz organ scene!

 

Each to their own though... like I said I'm not a good jazz player by any standard and don't really chase that direction. I don't really think its easy for people not born into the tradition to really pursue it... I mean I was born in a hard edged northern english shipyard town and worked as a plater/shipwright from 16 years old.. so my music really reflects my surroundings and what I grew up around.

 

Anyone who plays and studies the jazz tradition has my respect, but no more than somebody who decides to dedicate their life to pop music, classical or even someone who likes messing around with sounds on a computer.

[Goofball Jones]

Originally posted by TheFoosa I hate the scorecard types...but at least they are listening for something . Unlike average joe's who yell Pearl Jam in between songs at my gigs (true story).

 

What do you mean by "scorecard types"...who are these people and what are they doing? What's a scorecard in relation to a jazz gig?

[suitandtieguy]

 

Originally posted by Goofball Jones What's a scorecard in relation to a jazz gig?

 

 

your jazz score is a compound score based on note velocity, number of scales navigated, accuracy of scale navigation, number of incidents of side-stepping (mainly for Bostonians), and tone.

 

another score that comes into play with recorded jazz bands is how polite your producer makes the record sound. this is actually calculated from the THD of the CD and then leveraged against RMS ... not to mention issues such as guitar amp style and recording medium.

[-groovatious-]

Originally posted by suitandtieguy your jazz score is a compound score based on note velocity, number of scales navigated, accuracy of scale navigation, number of incidents of side-stepping (mainly for Bostonians), and tone. another score that comes into play with recorded jazz bands is how polite your producer makes the record sound. this is actually calculated from the THD of the CD and then leveraged against RMS ... not to mention issues such as guitar amp style and recording medium.

 

ROFLMAO - I love this guy!

[Goofball Jones]

No seriously, what are these scorecard guys?