Members program_insect Posted October 18, 2006 Members Share Posted October 18, 2006 Hello,I use Ableton Live for all of my sequencing duties and I'm happy with it for the most part. But Logic looks intruiging at $500 for the academic version. I like the soft synth package that it comes with, and I've heard so many good things about the sequencing abilities. Is Logic essential? Does it make a good partner for Live? Is the learning curve manageable? Will it help me score with chicks? Anybody care to gush about how awesome it is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members losergeek Posted October 18, 2006 Members Share Posted October 18, 2006 i like it. the learning curve is manageable. You should be able to get started right away, but the manual is massive. You will be learning for a long time (i certainly still am). Dunno about Live integration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members FunkyLaptop Posted October 19, 2006 Members Share Posted October 19, 2006 Most of the price is well justified by the arsenal of included instrument and effects plugins. Some might think the factory plugs would not be as good as pricy boutique plugs, it isn't so in my view. The learning will be an ongoing thing for quite a while if you're at all like me. You'll likely want a Logic-savvy control surface. Find their supported list and use that to shop. There are many places online where logic users gather. bigbluelounge.com, apple.com/support (really!), and many more. There are numerous books and training materials if you are so inclined. It's from Apple, who aren't going anywhere. If something breaks Logic, they can go down the hall and go right to the person that can fix it. This situation does not exist elsewhere, AFAIK. Some of my favorite features: Channel strip presets. Configures an entire mixer channel with all the plugs and settings for a particular task, with one click. Some are for recording an audio track, some are for the softsynths. They all sound very good, and I find them to be a college course in sound engineering. The instruments. Some of them are very deep and reward lots of tweaking. There's a serious sample library for use in the EXS 24 sampler instrument. They all come with lots of useful presets. Visit the forums, read what people like and don't like. Take this with a grain of salt, but it's useful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Amos Posted October 19, 2006 Members Share Posted October 19, 2006 Originally posted by program_insect Somebody wanna sell me on Logic? Nope. Hated it. Loved Ableton Live, and I almost think of them as opposites from a workflow perspective. Live may be ultimately quite "pre-patched" and limited compared to Logic, but this allows it to be fast, intuitive, and kickass at what it does.Logic is amazingly configurable and open-ended in how you want to set it up, but I found it maddeningly un-intuitive (maybe that`s just me), and didn`t like the interface or the effort required to do simple things. I have to say that the last version I used was the last version that was written for PC, so it would be some years and versions ago... maybe it is less maddening now. Anyway, once I found Live I never looked back... so far, any time I have wanted to do something new or push the boundaries of Live farther, a little bit of research and creativity has led to a way to do it in Live. I don`t feel limited by it...(in case anyone is wondering why I am using ` instead of a normal apostrophe, it`s because Firefox is bringing up the "find" toolbar every time I type a normal apostrophe or forward-slash. If someone here knows why it is doing this or how to make it stop, I`d be very glad to hear about it... oddly enough I can type apostrophes just fine in the "find" bar... just to piss me off I suppose) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wetwareinterface Posted October 19, 2006 Members Share Posted October 19, 2006 like above i tried logic on p.c. and was fed up in 3 days and dumped it.most un-intuitive software i have ever used.you HAVE to read the manual to do anything at first. that isn't a testament to it's abilities but to it's bad design. there are tons of sequencer packages that you install and can record some tracks and experiment with and figure out after a few minutes to do simple tasks in. logic isn't one of them. to just get a simple midi sequence recorded you need the manual as it is counter to anything else out there. cubase is pretty obtuse but without a manual diving trip i was able to record midi and audio and do some basic quantizing and trimming and cut and paste. logic requires you to set up an environment first and doesn't assume anything about your wanting to record or do anything at all. you have to tell it that you bought a midi sequncer/ audio recorder package and you'd most likely want to use it to record some midi and audio. that's taking configurability too far if the main point is midi and audio and you have to then set it up to do that yourself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members program_insect Posted October 19, 2006 Author Members Share Posted October 19, 2006 Thanks for the replies... I'll heed your warning about it being unintuitive...for me this isn't really a huge obstacle, though, since I plan to stick with Live for a lot of quick sketching of ideas, and improv composition (which Live is top notch for, obviously). I was hoping to integrate Logic more at the mixdown stage, or maybe dump midi to Logic for linear-type editing. So if it is counterintuitive but powerful, that's sort of perfect, as long as I bother to learn how to use the damn thing. Any other opinions? How does the included soft sampler stack up to Kontakt? For that matter, are the rest of the included plugs generally very solid? I would hope that the bread&butter stuff like EQ and dynamics is really solid...if so, that might be enough to warrant a purchase. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members justmcg Posted October 19, 2006 Members Share Posted October 19, 2006 Logic 5 on the PC can not be compared to Logic 7 on the Mac. Really, it's a lot different. MUCH easier to use right out of the box. It configures itself on first launch with a simple wizard type thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members hyperstationjr Posted October 19, 2006 Members Share Posted October 19, 2006 Don't mean to hi-jack, more of a quick side question... Any comparison do Digital Performer? Obviously the soft synths and effects of DP are probably not on par with Logic, but in terms of interface, usability, editablity, customization, etc... is Logic that far ahead in terms of interesting things it can do? i'll say i've always been interested in Logic, but the learning curve fear has totally kept me away... I tried to get around it in an Apple Store... I could get it to play and stop fine, but that was about it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members submodern Posted October 19, 2006 Members Share Posted October 19, 2006 The plugins are great, especially Sculpture, ES1/2, and all the other synths. It can definitely take a while to get your head around. It's only intuitive in that it makes sense once you already understand it, which is to say, it isn't particularly. I really hope they re-work the environment and the controller automation in the next major revision to make them easier to configure and use. I use it once I have the arrangement of my songs down and want to record and mix the various parts. It works great for this. Ableton Live (or hardware sequencers) is better for writing and experimenting with new songs, in my experience. Once I know the arrangement I want, though, the Arrange view of Ableton just starts annoying me so I quickly move things over to Logic. I also know other people who much prefer to just do everything in Ableton, so if Live is already doing everything you want it to, I don't know if I'd recommend switching over. No point in tearing your hair out (and you will) trying to learn a new program just to fix something that ain't broke. When I moved from Opcode Vision (RIP) to Logic, I took a hit of about a year of musical non-productivity just because I didn't like working with Logic, but knew I needed to force myself to use it, which is no fun and resulted in me spending a lot less time working on music and more time just playing videogames instead. On the other hand if you don't like the Arrange view in Ableton and it seems to be holding you back, Logic is definitely cool... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Audacity Works Posted October 19, 2006 Members Share Posted October 19, 2006 Logic is the hardest to learn but the easiest to use. It's also the only app where you can get world-class results right out of the box. No third-party plugs necessary. Their included stuff is really that good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stikygum Posted October 20, 2006 Members Share Posted October 20, 2006 I'll vouche for the plug-ins being top notch. Very pleased with them. Still trying to get to know the EXS24. I tend to agree with sub-modern. Logic is killer for finally writing and composing because you can do so much in how you make a song. I particularly like color coding markers for like verse, chorus and so on. Color coding all your sources and being able to see everything on one page is fantastic. But as for starting to make a song, I don't like using it as much as my RS7000 for sequencing. Mainly because I don't like using my mouse pad to enter notes into the Matrix Editor of Logic. Still learning the whole process and what will be best when entering notes. But right now I'm thinking that making/starting my songs on my RS7000 and then record the midi notes into Logic. I've done it this way and find it pretty nice. Then I have the basic parts and I can fill in and make my song sound more sophisticated in Logic. I've always thought that having a combination of software and hardware is the way to go. And I'm still a firm believer of this. Wish there was a hardware like sequence controller for Logic that would allow you to enter notes, so you don't have to do it by you mouse. Anyone know of one? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Yoozer Posted October 20, 2006 Members Share Posted October 20, 2006 Originally posted by Amos (in case anyone is wondering why I am using ` instead of a normal apostrophe, it`s because Firefox is bringing up the "find" toolbar every time I type a normal apostrophe or forward-slash. If someone here knows why it is doing this or how to make it stop, I`d be very glad to hear about it... oddly enough I can type apostrophes just fine in the "find" bar... just to piss me off I suppose) Try this : http://www.techspot.com/vb/topic59826.html Explanation here: http://forums.mozillazine.org/viewtopic.php?t=389071&postdays=0&postorder=asc&postsperpage=15&start=0 On a totally unrelated note, can someone sell me on Ableton Live? I've been a Cubase user since SX1 (at SX3 now) but the upgrade stuff of 4 does not look that attractive anymore to me. Problem is, I've got a big stack of hardware and 2 Midex 8's, and Ableton apparently doesn't play nicely with timing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members pogo97 Posted October 20, 2006 Members Share Posted October 20, 2006 Since we're on the subject of Logic... Is Logic any use live? Not so much spewing out loops or whatever but just for setting up, choosing and controlling sounds for songs or sets. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members program_insect Posted October 20, 2006 Author Members Share Posted October 20, 2006 Originally posted by Yoozer On a totally unrelated note, can someone sell me on Ableton Live? I've been a Cubase user since SX1 (at SX3 now) but the upgrade stuff of 4 does not look that attractive anymore to me. Hi there...you can probably find people to gush about Live (it's easy to gush about Live), but the best way to see it is to try out the demo, and make sure to go through the quick tutorials that come with it. I was a user of SX and when I tried the Live demo, I immediately restructured my whole workflow around that program and bought the full version the next day. It's really that cool. You gotta try it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members keanu reeves Posted October 20, 2006 Members Share Posted October 20, 2006 i saw someone use logic at a live show once. just logic on a powerbook, a dl4 delay, a knob box, and a guy on a trap kit. actually it was salvo beta in chicago at the empty bottle opening for u-ziq. anyways. yeah. i dont really know how he used logic. i think he was just mixing the tracks live is all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Amos Posted October 21, 2006 Members Share Posted October 21, 2006 Originally posted by Yoozer can someone sell me on Ableton Live? [...] Problem is, I've got a big stack of hardware and 2 Midex 8's, and Ableton apparently doesn't play nicely with timing. Thanks for the tips! Do download the Live 6 demo, and look into Plugin Delay compensation... in general there are several places in Live where you can tweak your timing so that everything, soft or outboard, is in sync. As far as timing drift or jitter is concerned, I've never had any problems with that in Live... Speaking of timing-- as you will learn, the timeline is one of the most stretchable, tweakable things about Live... you can adjust almost everything into the groove of your choice if you want to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Awakened_Yeti Posted October 21, 2006 Members Share Posted October 21, 2006 Ableton plays better with timing on hardware than any DAW ive ever used.. cubase, logic, sonar, samplitude its pretty rock solid comparably - however you prob wont be able to run as many plugins with it as those others.. dunno why, i guess the engine itself just takes more juice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Yoozer Posted October 21, 2006 Members Share Posted October 21, 2006 There's also another thing. Live 6 boxed here is 499 euro. Live 6 download is 469 euro. Live 5 boxed is 432, and the grace period is until October 31st - so upgrading to 6 is free. There's also the Behringer FCA audio interface that comes with Live Lite 4. It costs 85 euros. The upgrade for the Live Lite version to a download version of 6 is 269 euros. Total: 354 euros. So wait, you can get a new downloadable version for 115 euros cheaper if you invest 85 euro in something you aren't going to use. Err... what have I missed? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members pogo97 Posted October 21, 2006 Members Share Posted October 21, 2006 Originally posted by Yoozer ...So wait, you can get a new downloadable version for 115 euros cheaper if you invest 85 euro in something you aren't going to use.Err... what have I missed? I'm sure you've missed nothing. The material cost of software is pretty much entirely packaging; the rest of the cost is distribution, advertising and (one hopes mostly) r&d. Oh, and profits for a chain of handlers and middle-men as long as your arm. They could give the CDs away in your Shreddies if they saw some benefit in that. Funny world. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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