Tons of pedals, + true bypass fans MUST SEE

[Zachman]

I thought the article would be interesting for those who are running huge pedal boards, with the big "true bypass" hype, in the most inefficient way possible.

 

With all the talk of true bypass and buffers here, I figured there would be some interesting stuff to be considered there.

 

Here is a source of "Good" info:

 

What are buffers and how are they used?

 

Buffers are extremely important in a multi-component system. They are often misunderstood and often get a bad rap by those who are uninformed. In a CAE system, a buffer is a unity gain (input level equals output level) impedance converting circuit. It essentially protects your high impedance guitar output (or any other high impedance source, such as an amps' effects loop send) from being loaded down by the input it is connected to. In effect, it converts high impedance to low, which means subsequent stages are then driven by a low impedance source (the buffer's output). High impedance sources such as your guitar's output (assuming you have passive pickups) has very little current drive capability and it's signal is subject to a harsh environment once it leaves the guitar. You already know the adverse affect a long cable has on your tone. Same thing happens if you pass your signal through a bunch of effects pedals. Even if they have "true bypass" (an ugly, over-used term), each one will suck a little more of your signal along with the cables and connectors, mainly due to capacitive loading of your high impedance guitar signal. The end result is a muffled weak signal that lacks clarity. But once your high impedance guitar signal hits a properly designed buffer with a high input impedance, the buffer takes over, and uses its higher current capability (remember, its an active circuit that requires a power supply) to drive all subsequent stages, thus preserving your instrument's tone. This brings us to buffer quality. Buffers come in all types of designs, from discrete transistor, op-amp, to esoteric tube designs. All have their own unique sonic stamp. At CAE we use the op-amp approach. It has served us well for years, is low noise, and is extremely transparent to our ears. Buffers often get blamed for causing an overly bright sound, but we feel if its designed properly, any perceived "brightness" is because now the guitar is not being loaded down by subsequent stages!

 

Buffers can cause problems, too. There are some effects devices that don't like to see the low output impedance of a buffer. These are typically discrete transistor designed fuzz circuits (such as the Dallas Arbiter Fuzz Face). They react better to the high impedance output of the guitar. In fact, the guitar output, cable and input stage of the Fuzz Face complete a circuit that is highly dependent of those 3 components to work correctly. Fuzz Faces clean up nicely when you roll back the guitar volume control... not so if a buffer is between the guitar and Fuzz Face input. So if you have a pedal board with a Fuzz Face on it , put it first! Other pedals may react the same way. Experiment to see what works best for you. Keep in mind all active pedals (such as Boss, Ibanez, etc...) act as buffers and will impart their own sonic stamp even when bypassed. This is what started the whole "true bypass" (ugh! that term again) craze. See? Too much of a good thing can be "bad". Which brings us to how we utilize buffers in CAE custom switchers. We only use buffers where absolutely necessary. Typically, in a pedal based system we will not buffer until after the first 4-5 loops, which is usually just prior to sending the signal down to the pedal board (via a long cable run, hence the need to buffer) to hit the wah/volume pedals. Any more than 4 or 5 loops, and the guitar signal may be affected by capacitive loading. So the first few loops is where you would put any impedance sensitive effects. This also means your guitar will go through fuzz, overdrive or distortion pedals BEFORE the wah. We prefer this order because the wah then has a more harmonically rich signal to filter. Try it yourself. Of course, if a specific order is required, we will do everything we can to make it happen. Buffers are also necessary to drive isolation transformers, since the relatively low primary impedance of the transformers may be detrimental to whatever circuit is feeding it. This is also why amp splitter circuits must be buffered. You can't drive multiple amps with a relatively high impedance source. So there usually is a buffer somewhere in the output stage of your custom switcher. That's usually it. 2 places minimum. There may be more active stages depending on your system requirements.

 

Why would I want a switching (loop) system over a traditional pedal board?

 

Pedal boards are fine if you just want a few pedals and your switching needs are basic. We build them all the time. But if you are truly serious about your tone, and you want many sound options available to you at any time (not to mention preset combinations and midi program change capability), a switching system is the way to go. No one said you have to turn on all the stuff at the same time! Besides, THERE IS NO CLEANER SIGNAL PATH FROM GUITAR TO AMP THAN WITH A SWITCHING SYSTEM, PERIOD. With a pedal board, even if every effect is bypassed, and you have "100% bypass" switches in all your effects (which is rare), you are still running through every pedal, and every cable and connection in the system. If something fails, good luck finding it. There is still a major capacitive buildup (which results in a severe loss of tone, mainly high end) because your signal must go through each cable and pedal. This is why signal buffers are so important. With a CAE switching system, troubleshooting is easy because you can bypass to get effects out of the signal path, and you can patch in between various places in the signal path, when you know what to look for. With a CAE custom switching system (we can't vouch for other manufacturers) the majority of the signal path is hard wired internally, and with a loop based system bypassing the effect bypasses the cables connecting the effect as well! This is impossible with a traditional pedal board.

 

Custom Audio Electronics

 

 

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/document?doc_id=99397&src=3SOSWXXA

[L6Sguy]

The easy way to check if a pedal is true bypass is to disconnect the power and see if the guitar signal passes through the pedal when the effect is off. Make sure you toggle the on/off footswitch so that it is set to off or bypass.

 

 

sell the kids a lie, one paragraph in. mother{censored}ers.

 

 

although to be fair, i thought it would've started earlier.

[DanJep]

 

Translation: "buy from musiciansfriend.com"

[therhodeo]

Any mxr pedal will pass your signal. Or at least whats left of it.

[Zachman]

I thought the article would be interesting for those who are running huge pedal boards, with the big "true bypass" hype, in the most inefficient way possible.

 

With all the talk of true bypass and buffers here, I figured there would be some interesting stuff to be considered there.

 

Here is a source of "Good" info:

 

What are buffers and how are they used?

 

Buffers are extremely important in a multi-component system. They are often misunderstood and often get a bad rap by those who are uninformed. In a CAE system, a buffer is a unity gain (input level equals output level) impedance converting circuit. It essentially protects your high impedance guitar output (or any other high impedance source, such as an amps' effects loop send) from being loaded down by the input it is connected to. In effect, it converts high impedance to low, which means subsequent stages are then driven by a low impedance source (the buffer's output). High impedance sources such as your guitar's output (assuming you have passive pickups) has very little current drive capability and it's signal is subject to a harsh environment once it leaves the guitar. You already know the adverse affect a long cable has on your tone. Same thing happens if you pass your signal through a bunch of effects pedals. Even if they have "true bypass" (an ugly, over-used term), each one will suck a little more of your signal along with the cables and connectors, mainly due to capacitive loading of your high impedance guitar signal. The end result is a muffled weak signal that lacks clarity. But once your high impedance guitar signal hits a properly designed buffer with a high input impedance, the buffer takes over, and uses its higher current capability (remember, its an active circuit that requires a power supply) to drive all subsequent stages, thus preserving your instrument's tone. This brings us to buffer quality. Buffers come in all types of designs, from discrete transistor, op-amp, to esoteric tube designs. All have their own unique sonic stamp. At CAE we use the op-amp approach. It has served us well for years, is low noise, and is extremely transparent to our ears. Buffers often get blamed for causing an overly bright sound, but we feel if its designed properly, any perceived "brightness" is because now the guitar is not being loaded down by subsequent stages!

 

Buffers can cause problems, too. There are some effects devices that don't like to see the low output impedance of a buffer. These are typically discrete transistor designed fuzz circuits (such as the Dallas Arbiter Fuzz Face). They react better to the high impedance output of the guitar. In fact, the guitar output, cable and input stage of the Fuzz Face complete a circuit that is highly dependent of those 3 components to work correctly. Fuzz Faces clean up nicely when you roll back the guitar volume control... not so if a buffer is between the guitar and Fuzz Face input. So if you have a pedal board with a Fuzz Face on it , put it first! Other pedals may react the same way. Experiment to see what works best for you. Keep in mind all active pedals (such as Boss, Ibanez, etc...) act as buffers and will impart their own sonic stamp even when bypassed. This is what started the whole "true bypass" (ugh! that term again) craze. See? Too much of a good thing can be "bad". Which brings us to how we utilize buffers in CAE custom switchers. We only use buffers where absolutely necessary. Typically, in a pedal based system we will not buffer until after the first 4-5 loops, which is usually just prior to sending the signal down to the pedal board (via a long cable run, hence the need to buffer) to hit the wah/volume pedals. Any more than 4 or 5 loops, and the guitar signal may be affected by capacitive loading. So the first few loops is where you would put any impedance sensitive effects. This also means your guitar will go through fuzz, overdrive or distortion pedals BEFORE the wah. We prefer this order because the wah then has a more harmonically rich signal to filter. Try it yourself. Of course, if a specific order is required, we will do everything we can to make it happen. Buffers are also necessary to drive isolation transformers, since the relatively low primary impedance of the transformers may be detrimental to whatever circuit is feeding it. This is also why amp splitter circuits must be buffered. You can't drive multiple amps with a relatively high impedance source. So there usually is a buffer somewhere in the output stage of your custom switcher. That's usually it. 2 places minimum. There may be more active stages depending on your system requirements.

 

Why would I want a switching (loop) system over a traditional pedal board?

 

Pedal boards are fine if you just want a few pedals and your switching needs are basic. We build them all the time. But if you are truly serious about your tone, and you want many sound options available to you at any time (not to mention preset combinations and midi program change capability), a switching system is the way to go. No one said you have to turn on all the stuff at the same time! Besides, THERE IS NO CLEANER SIGNAL PATH FROM GUITAR TO AMP THAN WITH A SWITCHING SYSTEM, PERIOD. With a pedal board, even if every effect is bypassed, and you have "100% bypass" switches in all your effects (which is rare), you are still running through every pedal, and every cable and connection in the system. If something fails, good luck finding it. There is still a major capacitive buildup (which results in a severe loss of tone, mainly high end) because your signal must go through each cable and pedal. This is why signal buffers are so important. With a CAE switching system, troubleshooting is easy because you can bypass to get effects out of the signal path, and you can patch in between various places in the signal path, when you know what to look for. With a CAE custom switching system (we can't vouch for other manufacturers) the majority of the signal path is hard wired internally, and with a loop based system bypassing the effect bypasses the cables connecting the effect as well! This is impossible with a traditional pedal board.

 

Custom Audio Electronics

[andreas]

Translation: "buy from musiciansfriend.com"

Actually, I think the proper translation is "buy Tonebone pedals" Peter Janis is the president of Radial Engineering...

...and no, the Tonebone pedals are not true bypass (at least not the ones I've peeked into).

/Andreas

[SUPER VELCROBOY]

i stopped reading midway through because i got so bored of it and didn't learn anything new.

[Zachman]

i stopped reading midway through because i got so bored of it and didn't learn anything new.

 

 

Not sure what your issue is, but you seemed to be happy to get the info I gave you in your delay thread about the D2, Nova Delay etc... and lately you are acting like a dick... why???

 

Next time, just move along

[Zachman]

Actually, I think the proper translation is "buy Tonebone pedals" Peter Janis is the president of Radial Engineering... ...and no, the Tonebone pedals are not true bypass (at least not the ones I've peeked into). /Andreas

 

The point was, loopers don't need to be True bypass, nor do all one's pedals, as I read it anyway.

[therhodeo]

The point was, loopers don't need to be True bypass, nor do all one's pedals, as I read it anyway.

 

 

The only thing is is if you have too many different buffers it can be just as damaging to your tone. I think most people on here have come to the conclusion that the best way is 1 or 2 buffered pedals in conjunction with true bypass. Hell yeah if you had a Cornish rig and everything was buffered it would all be peachy but not when you're mixing and matching.

[Zachman]

 

The only thing is is if you have too many different buffers it can be just as damaging to your tone. I think most people on here have come to the conclusion that the best way is 1 or 2 buffered pedals in conjunction with true bypass. Hell yeah if you had a Cornish rig and everything was buffered it would all be peachy but not when you're mixing and matching.

 

 

Yup, that is why I posted the CAE info in this thread, as well as that article. It addresses that.

[SUPER VELCROBOY]

Not sure what your issue is, but you seemed to be happy to get the info I gave you in your delay thread about the D2, Nova Delay etc... and lately you are acting like a dick... why??? Next time, just move along

Who's acting like a dick? Don't be so overly sensitive, big boy.
You posted an article that wasn't very enlightening. It's not like this topic hasn't been beaten to death for the past ten years.

[Zachman]

 

It's not like this topic hasn't been beaten to death for the past ten years.

 

 

Yet the ignorance lives on... It never occurred to you that this posting wasn't for those who already know the secrets to effectively running guitar gear? C'mon... This place is noob central anymore, with relatively few exceptions.

 

My posting this was for those who don't know, and you and your sport of abrasivenesses, and special brand of foolishness is precisely why info like this should be available for those who don't get it, otherwise the uneducated end up getting their info from guys like you, who don't seem to have too deep of an understanding of any of this stuff.

 

The current trend of guys using a zillion pedals as noise makers, hooking up huge pedal boards of tons of stuff in series, using true bypass pedals, over buffering and/or under buffering, trying to figure out what is the most brutal sounding amp, collecting vintage pedals that were crap back when they were introduced and still are, but are touted as the hippest thing since sliced bread... That and the fact that this place has become the biggest snooze fest with not much useful info of late, has IMO given rise to the confrontational crap that you and the haunting mids crowd, the boutique pedal nazis, purist 5 watt amp nazis, and open jam idiots seem to prefer.

 

I was just trying to provide a useful topic for those who are seriously interested in things to consider for maximizing their use of the gear that they spend their $$$ on.

[Vince]

Actually, I think the proper translation is "buy Tonebone pedals" Peter Janis is the president of Radial Engineering...

+1 - Sounded too much like an advert for Radial to me. I'm not saying that there is not good info in there, just it sounded like an advert which is a shame. I thought I was going to get a good read there but switched off when he started advertising.

[Vince]

Yet the ignorance lives on... It never occurred to you that this posting wasn't for those who already know the secrets to effectively running guitar gear? C'mon... This place is noob central anymore, with relatively few exceptions. My posting this was for those who don't know, and you and your sport of abrasivenesses, and special brand of foolishness is precisely why info like this should be available for those who don't get it, otherwise the uneducated end up getting their info from guys like you, who don't seem to have too deep of an understanding of any of this stuff. The current trend of guys using a zillion pedals as noise makers, hooking up huge pedal boards of tons of stuff in series, using true bypass pedals, over buffering and/or under buffering, trying to figure out what is the most brutal sounding amp... That and the fact that this place has become the biggest snooze fest with not much useful info of late, has IMO given rise to the confrontational crap that you and the haunting mids crowd, the boutique pedal nazis, purist 5 watt amp nazis, and open jam idiots seem to prefer. I was just trying to provide a useful topic for those who are seriously interested in things to consider for maximizing their use of the gear that they spend their $$$ on.

 

Good call!

[andreas]

+1 - Sounded too much like an advert for Radial to me. I'm not saying that there is not good info in there, just it sounded like an advert which is a shame. I thought I was going to get a good read there but switched off when he started advertising.

Indeed. And when he starts off by getting the facts wrong (pulling the battery is not a test for true bypass), the rest gets quite a bit less interesting.

 

The CAE article also had its ad moments, but was both far more interesting and informative. Their approach to the whole thing is much closer to what most of us has already found - you need a buffer somewhere in the chain, but there is also such a thing as too much of a good thing. There's no need for a buffer at every input/output of every pedal.

 

/Andreas

[Zachman]

Indeed. And when he starts off by getting the facts wrong (pulling the battery is not a test for true bypass), the rest gets quite a bit less interesting. The CAE article also had its ad moments, but was both far more interesting and informative. Their approach to the whole thing is much closer to what most of us has already found - you need a buffer somewhere in the chain, but there is also such a thing as too much of a good thing. There's no need for a buffer at every input/output of every pedal. /Andreas

In all fairness to CAE, that wasn't an article, it was info directly from their websites' FAQ page.

[SUPER VELCROBOY]

I was just trying to provide a useful topic for those who are seriously interested in things to consider for maximizing their use of the gear that they spend their $$$ on.

 

 

You're the one to talk..

I hope you're not trying to hurt my feelings.

Are you going to throw your gear at me (because it sounds like you want to)?

Or is it still in the shop while you wage gibberish all over my web browser?

 

If you want to be useful, try and be creative with your posts for once instead of showering us with cut and paste essays from cae and ad nauseam snapshots of your gear. A link would suffice, thanks.

[Vince]

In all fairness to CAE, that wasn't an article, it was info directly from their websites' FAQ page.

But I think we subconsciously knew that and it wasn't trying to hide itself as an unbiased article unlike the MF/radial thing.

[Zachman]

 

You're the one to talk.. I hope you're not trying to hurt my feelings. Are you going to throw your gear at me (because it sounds like you want to)? Or is it still in the shop while you wage gibberish all over my web browser? If you want to be useful, try and be creative with your posts for once instead of showering us with cut and paste essays from cae and ad nauseam snapshots of your gear. A link would suffice, thanks.

 

 

I'm the one to talk??? Not sure what your point was, with that comment.

 

1st your web browser, doesn't require you to click on the thread, nor does it require you to make a useless post. My gear seems to offend you. Oh well...

 

2nd the info, if not useful for you, may be for someone else.

 

3rd RE: pics of my gear, usually in threads asking for rig pics (ya, how lame of me)

 

4th I didn't come into your delay thread, and make any snide comments, rather, when you were asking me about specific features of rack gear, I answered your questions. (No cut and paste) Perhaps I should've just put a link to the site and told you to try google the {censored}ing specs, before making incorrect statements illustrating your ignorance, and answer your own damn question, or perhaps post how boring it was that you were asking. No, that isn't what happened is it? So, why the need to give me {censored}? Did your mommy ground you? (Now you feel the need to strike out)

[Zachman]

 

But I think we subconsciously knew that and it wasn't trying to hide itself as an unbiased article unlike the MF/radial thing.

 

 

I am not advocating the bias of the author of the MF article, rather thought that the idea of running one's gear efficiently was the bigger point. Not sure what your point to me is... Perhaps you don't like Radial products?

 

Not sure why so many seem to be so angry or feeling the need to get uppity over something as stupid as an article lately, but it's sort of pathetic.

[SUPER VELCROBOY]

I'm the one to talk??? Not sure what your point was, with that comment. 1st your web browser, doesn't require you to click on the thread, nor does it require you to make a useless post. 2nd the info, if not useful for you, may be for someone else. 3rd RE: pics of my gear, usually in threads asking for rig pics (ya, how lame of me) 4th I didn't come into your delay thread, and make any snide comments, rather, when you were asking me about specific features of rack gear, I answered your questions. (No cut and paste) Perhaps I should've just put a link to the site and told you to try google, before making incorrect statements illustrating your ignorance.

 

My post regarding article you posted wasn't useless. I thought the article was hopelessly redundant though, seeing how there are a bunch of others like it. You calling me a "dick" was pretty useless and uncalled for. You don't see me calling you a dick do ya?

 

Regarding your 3rd point, it's only lame eye candy when you post it without explaining it, something you do quite frequently.

 

As for your 4th point, my comment only sounded snide because you misinterpreted that way and started calling me a dick, something you are doing more commonly now a days.

 

Any more points you would like to bring up? You're welcome in my threads anytime though. I don't discriminate against anyone

[Zachman]

Any more points you would like to bring up? You're welcome in my threads anytime though. I don't discriminate against anyone

You are welcome in my threads too, however; useful comments are preferred, not the type you 1st made here.

If you have any insight re: buffers, and true bypass, running pedals on huge pedal boards or rack gear and using switching systems to eliminate the issues that running a bunch of gear presents, perhaps your thoughts on rig design in general, that you'd like to share with the rest of the class, I'd love to hear it. THAT, would've been a useful post in the 1st place, not what you did post. That would've eliminated you from looking like a dick, and having me call you on it.

[SUPER VELCROBOY]

You ever wonder it's because your ego is just bruised easily?

 

You want to know my philosophy for rig design? It's simple -- Keep it simple and empirically determine what sounds good using my ears. If i encounter a problem, i break it down until i find the problem and fix it. Works great and i don't pay some guy to do it for me.

 

anyway, i got to get some zzz's zachy. I know you are thinking of something smart to counter with, but i'll read it tomorrow. Don't worry, i won't forget about you

[Zachman]

You ever wonder it's because your ego is just bruised easily? You want to know my philosophy for rig design? It's simple -- Keep it simple and empirically determine what sounds good using my ears. If i encounter a problem, i break it down until i find the problem and fix it. Works great and i don't pay some guy to do it for me.

Brilliant. Could you describe your design specs for isolation transformers, used in a loop switching system or the type that you'd choose for a multi-amp switcher, such as the CAE V.1?

Next time I design a rig, perhaps I'll contact you for the fab work. FYI, this is the 1st rig that I've ever commissioned anyone to build for me, as there were no commercially available products to do what I required, unlike the many that I did build myself for me and several others. Nice try at a dig, but you're slipping. Give it up