V O C A L E F F E C T S

[bmast160]

what do you think of these? any other recommendations?

 

i'd use one for a little compression and maybe a little eq

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/TC-Helicon-VoiceTone-Correct-Vocal-Pedal?sku=180119

 

and one for a little reverb

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/TC-Helicon-VoiceTone-Create-Vocal-Pedal?sku=180118

[jorhay1]

Do you mean to use them with your PA on a bus send or plug your mike directly into it and go into whatever PA is available?

[bmast160]

id plug the mic directly into the effects...i think thats how they're designed to work too.

they're supposed to allow you to setup how you want your vocals to sound and not leave it up to a sound guy...

im hesitant about them tho...a lot of great reviews but a few negative ones...

just wondering if anyone has tried them or if anyone has comments on them...or any other suggestions.

[jorhay1]

I'm sure they're cool. I just have a problem with the concept.

If your not in the house (meaning in the audience)how can you tell what your vocal sound is like. Things like wet/dry mix, EQ are probably better left to the sound guy. That being said, if you cant afford to pay a sound guy to learn your set (i cant), things like tempo sync'd delay, telephone EQ/filtering and other special effects might be better if you did it for certain sections of a song, or the last word of a phrase, etc. It would be as it your mike was going through pedals, could be very creative. But again I would leave the basic sound/EQ/ambience/balance up to the sound guy.

[AsarlaiK]

I think they are a bit expensive for what they are.

I prefer to run vocal effects through an effects bus and let the sound guy deal with the details and here is why:

1) I can't hear/judge FOH vocal quality from the stage, I'm behind the FOH speakers.
2) Using compression and spacial effects (like reverb) between mic and PA pre is going to cause all sorts of level problems for the sound guy ensuring I get the worst monitor mix in history.
3) I want a good monitor mix.
4) I prefer my compression post pre, pre-eq. and (if I even use reverb) my reverb to be on the return bus. I don't want to hear reverb in the monitor.
5) I also play guitar so I don't want to be twiddling with a bunch of vocal effects in the middle of a set.

Both those units are probably fine for home recording and demos but I still prefer specific effects placed in a certain way. I track with only minimal EQ adjustments and minimal compression prefering to get a pretty dry track on tape (hard drive). I'll add more severe compression (if needed) and spacial effects on mixdown.

Bb

[bmast160]

I'm sure they're cool. I just have a problem with the concept. If your not in the house (meaning in the audience)how can you tell what your vocal sound is like. Things like wet/dry mix, EQ are probably better left to the sound guy. That being said, if you cant afford to pay a sound guy to learn your set (i cant), things like tempo sync'd delay, telephone EQ/filtering and other special effects might be better if you did it for certain sections of a song, or the last word of a phrase, etc. It would be as it your mike was going through pedals, could be very creative. But again I would leave the basic sound/EQ/ambience/balance up to the sound guy.

 

 

gotcha. good point...i guess you could have someone else your playing with stand in the house an let you know

[bmast160]

I think they are a bit expensive for what they are. I prefer to run vocal effects through an effects bus and let the sound guy deal with the details and here is why: 1) I can't hear/judge FOH vocal quality from the stage, I'm behind the FOH speakers. 2) Using compression and spacial effects (like reverb) between mic and PA pre is going to cause all sorts of level problems for the sound guy ensuring I get the worst monitor mix in history. 3) I want a good monitor mix. 4) I prefer my compression post pre, pre-eq. and (if I even use reverb) my reverb to be on the return bus. I don't want to hear reverb in the monitor. 5) I also play guitar so I don't want to be twiddling with a bunch of vocal effects in the middle of a set. Both those units are probably fine for home recording and demos but I still prefer specific effects placed in a certain way. I track with only minimal EQ adjustments and minimal compression prefering to get a pretty dry track on tape (hard drive). I'll add more severe compression (if needed) and spacial effects on mixdown. Bb

 

 

do you mind explaining some of these things and why...im new to some of this stuff and dont know what it means. FOH? why does the compression create level problems? couldnt you use the pedal for compression and eq and just have it run flat to the monitor? whats return bus? thanks!

[douglind]

Hi bmast,

Compression, in general, can cause feedback problems if your output levels are set too high, or if the threshold and output levels are set too wide. By placing compression before the EQ, you are then EQing an already compressed sound and you may lose a lot of the dynamics of your vocal. This will vary greatly from vocalist to vocalist, depending on their particular singing style, power of their voice etc. It can basically give the sound guy a headache trying to make a decent vocal sound that cuts through in the mix as it should. Worse than that, when the EQ is placed after the compressed sound, any increase in gain from the compressor is magnified by any EQ settings he makes which can turn really ugly, feedbackwise, and requires a lot of active participation from the sound guy all through a song. If YOU are also the sound guy, you'd need to control it all from the stage, while trying to sing and play.

That said, in my own band, we actually put the compressor in the channel inserts of our mic channels but we get away with it as the compression is very light. Also, you have to use high quality mics so that you don't need to use a lot of EQ on each mic. We then control any feedback via a graphic eq, which is inserted across the whole mix. We somehow manage to make it work, although I'm sure if a sound guy saw our setup he'd balk at it. Also, our particular PA (Mackie SRM450s & SWA1501 subs) is very tolerant, which helps. :-)

Spacial Effects like reverb are not good to have pre EQ as the EQ is then acting on the processed sound, and not on the dry vocal. If your reverb or delay levels change for different songs then your EQ will most likely have to change as well since you will have changed the source sound - not good and you, or your sound guy, will never be done twiddling knobs throughout the entire gig. Same general rules apply for vocals as they do for guitars - signal processors first, spacial effects after (unless you are trying for a particular effect - but then you accept the overhead). That way, the EQ can provide a consistent shaping of your vocal tone (which is the guts of your sound) and then you can apply the reverbs and delays (via your mixer FX send and return jacks) to colour that sound according to taste, song style etc. However, changes after the EQ don't generally require accompanying EQ changes so it becomes a lot simpler to manage. Also, you can normally decide how much, if any, of the FX get into the monitor mix. Having reverbs and delays in a monitor mix can also create feedback issues. Always better to have them dry.

Hope that helps

[jorhay1]

 

do you mind explaining some of these things and why...im new to some of this stuff and dont know what it means. FOH? why does the compression create level problems? couldnt you use the pedal for compression and eq and just have it run flat to the monitor? whats return bus? thanks!

 

 

Looks like AsarlaiK is off line so I'll try to answer

 

FOH?

 

Front of House or in the audience, what the audience hears. as opposed to being on stage, where you can

[bmast160]

Hi bmast, Compression, in general, can cause feedback problems if your output levels are set too high, or if the threshold and output levels are set too wide. By placing compression before the EQ, you are then EQing an already compressed sound and you may lose a lot of the dynamics of your vocal. This will vary greatly from vocalist to vocalist, depending on their particular singing style, power of their voice etc. It can basically give the sound guy a headache trying to make a decent vocal sound that cuts through in the mix as it should. Worse than that, when the EQ is placed after the compressed sound, any increase in gain from the compressor is magnified by any EQ settings he makes which can turn really ugly, feedbackwise, and requires a lot of active participation from the sound guy all through a song. If YOU are also the sound guy, you'd need to control it all from the stage, while trying to sing and play. That said, in my own band, we actually put the compressor in the channel inserts of our mic channels but we get away with it as the compression is very light. Also, you have to use high quality mics so that you don't need to use a lot of EQ on each mic. We then control any feedback via a graphic eq, which is inserted across the whole mix. We somehow manage to make it work, although I'm sure if a sound guy saw our setup he'd balk at it. Also, our particular PA (Mackie SRM450s & SWA1501 subs) is very tolerant, which helps. :-) Spacial Effects like reverb are not good to have pre EQ as the EQ is then acting on the processed sound, and not on the dry vocal. If your reverb or delay levels change for different songs then your EQ will most likely have to change as well since you will have changed the source sound - not good and you, or your sound guy, will never be done twiddling knobs throughout the entire gig. Same general rules apply for vocals as they do for guitars - signal processors first, spacial effects after (unless you are trying for a particular effect - but then you accept the overhead). That way, the EQ can provide a consistent shaping of your vocal tone (which is the guts of your sound) and then you can apply the reverbs and delays (via your mixer FX send and return jacks) to colour that sound according to taste, song style etc. However, changes after the EQ don't generally require accompanying EQ changes so it becomes a lot simpler to manage. Also, you can normally decide how much, if any, of the FX get into the monitor mix. Having reverbs and delays in a monitor mix can also create feedback issues. Always better to have them dry. Hope that helps

 

 

this is great! thank you so much!

i was planning on using the "correct" voicetone pedal to add a tiny bit of compression and a tiny bit of eq (if i need it) then it'd be run into the "create" voicetone pedal to occationally add a little reverb if needed...then i'd just have the sound guy run everything flat so that he doesnt need to do anything.

this way the eq and compression would be added together...i dont know if there are other things that are more recommended than the "correct" pedal tho...

[bmast160]

Looks like AsarlaiK is off line so I'll try to answer FOH? Front of House or in the audience, what the audience hears. as opposed to being on stage, where you can

[NoirAbattoir]

Do you think these would be useful for a home recording option? It's really tough for me to get vocal tracks I can stand to listen to (please, no jokes, I already hate my voice enough as it is). I really just want a fuller, fatter tone with nice reverbs to lay on top of. I suppose I would just be using it for the EQ, preamps, and reverbs.

[bmast160]

Do you think these would be useful for a home recording option? It's really tough for me to get vocal tracks I can stand to listen to (please, no jokes, I already hate my voice enough as it is). I really just want a fuller, fatter tone with nice reverbs to lay on top of. I suppose I would just be using it for the EQ, preamps, and reverbs.

 

 

you could probably use them but they're designed to be used live...there are probably better things you could use....how about a different mic to get a fuller sound...

[jorhay1]

i was just thinking that i'd be able to adjust the eq how i like it before the show thus it would be how i and the band like it and not how the sound guy thinks it should sound...so i could eq(only if i had to) with the pedal and then just have the sound guy leave the signal flat so hes not adding anything to it.

 

 

That depends.

what if you eq your voice to the way you like it, then you play at a venue that has a standing wave at 2k, crazy reflections, low frequency phase cancellation, and a 60 cycle hum?

[jorhay1]

Do you think these would be useful for a home recording option? It's really tough for me to get vocal tracks I can stand to listen to (please, no jokes, I already hate my voice enough as it is). I really just want a fuller, fatter tone with nice reverbs to lay on top of. I suppose I would just be using it for the EQ, preamps, and reverbs.

 

 

Hi Fire in Cairo,

 

sorry 2 answer a question with a question (s)

but to better answer your question;

 

What kind of of

1. Recording system do you use? (pro tools?, Logic?, Korg D888? etc)

2. What Kind of Mic do you have

3. What kind of mic pre amp do you have

4. What kind of plug ins do you have

5. what kind of processors (verb, delay, compressor, etc) do you have?

[Meriphew]

If you only need a little reverb or compression, I'd let the soundguy handle that. If you need delays or more unusual effects, then one of those TC pedals might be just the ticket. They allow you to send two signals (dry/wet) to the FOH, which would allow the soundguy to mix a good blend of dry/fx through the mains (and keep too much fx out of your monitors), while still giving you control of when the fx are on/off (cues). I'm going to pick up one of the TC Create units.

[only_shallow]

i like a lot of reverb and delay; but not cheesy delay.

 

phaser also sounds cool, like the pixies 'planet of sound'

 

never heard tremolo? tremolo + wah could be fun? ring mod? flange? flange + trem?

[bmast160]

That depends. what if you eq your voice to the way you like it, then you play at a venue that has a standing wave at 2k, crazy reflections, low frequency phase cancellation, and a 60 cycle hum?

 

 

good point...i guess if the place was extremely bad i'd just let them do it.

 

i have a power conditioner to prevent the hum tho and i would assume that a place that bad would have a standard eq setting to cancel that stuff out but not actually add any compression etc. because it would be done from the stage...i guess a bbe sonic maximizer would work well too for the phase problems

 

i guess i just dont like the idea of someone else that i dont know working vocals...

[NoirAbattoir]

Hi Fire in Cairo, sorry 2 answer a question with a question (s) but to better answer your question; What kind of of 1. Recording system do you use? (pro tools?, Logic?, Korg D888? etc) 2. What Kind of Mic do you have 3. What kind of mic pre amp do you have 4. What kind of plug ins do you have 5. what kind of processors (verb, delay, compressor, etc) do you have?

 

 

[

 

I have the following things:

 

- Shure SM57, AKG D100E, Sennheiser E609, MXL 990

- Presonus Firebox

- Lexicon Rack Reverb

- Reaper recording software

 

Reaper has some built-in VST's, but I've been unsuccessful at utilizing them with vocal tracks.

[jorhay1]

good point...i guess if the place was extremely bad i'd just let them do it. i have a power conditioner to prevent the hum tho and i would assume that a place that bad would have a standard eq setting to cancel that stuff out but not actually add any compression etc. because it would be done from the stage...i guess a bbe sonic maximizer would work well too for the phase problems i guess i just dont like the idea of someone else that i dont know working vocals...

 

 

That

[jorhay1]

 

[ I have the following things: - Shure SM57, AKG D100E, Sennheiser E609, MXL 990 - Presonus Firebox - Lexicon Rack Reverb - Reaper recording software Reaper has some built-in VST's, but I've been unsuccessful at utilizing them with vocal tracks.

 

 

Should be no problem to get a decent Vocal sound with your set up.

 

Of course "Good" is relative.

You don

[analogmike]

For live sound, the new TC harmony-G pedal demo I saw at NAMM was amazing. I will get one as soon as they are out. Does intelligent harmonies, reverb, delays, weird sounds, distortion, etc.

[1DZReverendDavidLee]

..Let the soundman do his job, so you can do yours: To rock.

BEST POST EVER!