EHX Bans eBay!

[Kassanova]

 

So, if you buy strictly on EBAY, how do you try something out?

 

 

I never said I bought strictly eBay. I said eBay was one of the greatest things to happen to the consumer market and I stand by that. Before eBay, if you wanted to unload your used equipment, you had limited choices - run ads in your local paper in the "for sale" section, take it to a pawn shop and get fleeced or take it to the local music store that sells used equipment and get fleeced. EBay brought about the option of being able to sell gear to people on your own. I don't know about you but I'm a musician FIRST, fanboy second or third. I have no allegiance to ANYBODY'S company. See, that's what I mean by conditioned consumers. Everybody seems to be "brand conditioned" these days to the point that people approach everything from a "favorite team" perspective. I DON'T CARE ABOUT ANYONE ELSE'S COMPANY. My first loyalty is to my own business and I'm not a pedalmaker, pedal seller or an "unauthorized seller" so none of this matters to me. I try products out in the music stores and sometimes I buy them there, AFTER researching the best deal. If its a mom & pop store, I may buy it there but if I am losing a lot of dough on the deal, I'm going where the best deal is. I feel no shame in saying that because I'm not a "conditioned consumer". None of these people are my friends and I owe them nothing. Its all business and depends on what my cashflow is looking like at the moment of purchase. My goal is to get the gear and use it, not try to make somebody happy. If the service is great, I don't mind paying more DEPENDING ON HOW MY CASH FLOW IS AT THE TIME OF PURCHASE. You "rich boys" can side up with whomever you like but I'm on MY side first. I'm not trying to win "consumer of the year", just trying to get what I need to do what I need to do.

[Chris B.]

Well the one thing I like about EHX is that in general, their prices are fairly reasonable. I mean look at the Big Muff or Little Big Muff, two of their more popular pedals. Under $75. Bear in mind, EHX is an actual company that employs 60+ workers, in the US, that has to pay US wages, health insurance, etc. The fact that you want their product without paying very much for it, is the Walmart mentality, sorry. You want a lot of cheap products, without paying too much. I'm trying hard to avoid that myself, buying fewer things, but of higher quality. It is hard. Most of us here are on some form of a budget for gear. I have many other things to pay for myself. But a goal of any company is still to make a profit, so they can feed their families too, and pay their employees a reasonable wage. Look at Walmart - many of their employees are paid low wages, and many don't have health care. Guess who pays for their health care needs? The taxpayer. So we all lose here. Except for the Walmart executives.

 

I think trying argue ethics, here, is a lost cause. Everyone just wants it cheap.

 

How many Behringer pedals are made in the US? Exactly.

[IRG]

I never said I bought strictly eBay. I said eBay was one of the greatest things to happen to the consumer market and I stand by that. Before eBay, if you wanted to unload your used equipment, you had limited choices - run ads in your local paper in the "for sale" section, take it to a pawn shop and get fleeced or take it to the local music store that sells used equipment and get fleeced. EBay brought about the option of being able to sell gear to people on your own. I don't know about you but I'm a musician FIRST, fanboy second or third. I have no allegiance to ANYBODY'S company. See, that's what I mean by conditioned consumers. Everybody seems to be "brand conditioned" these days to the point that people approach everything from a "favorite team" perspective. I DON'T CARE ABOUT ANYONE ELSE'S COMPANY. My first loyalty is to my own business and I'm not a pedalmaker, pedal seller or an "unauthorized seller" so none of this matters to me. I try products out in the music stores and sometimes I buy them there, AFTER researching the best deal. If its a mom & pop store, I may buy it there but if I am losing a lot of dough on the deal, I'm going where the best deal is. I feel no shame in saying that because I'm not a "conditioned consumer". None of these people are my friends and I owe them nothing. Its all business and depends on what my cashflow is looking like at the moment of purchase. My goal is to get the gear and use it, not try to make somebody happy. If the service is great, I don't mind paying more DEPENDING ON HOW MY CASH FLOW IS AT THE TIME OF PURCHASE. You "rich boys" can side up with whomever you like but I'm on MY side first. I'm not trying to win "consumer of the year", just trying to get what I need to do what I need to do.

 

 

 

What business are you in? I try to stay loyal to some of the local shops (I live in a small town) because they treat me right, know me, help me out when possible, so in turn I stay loyal when possible. I see your point, if the $ difference is enough, I might buy somewhere else, but I seldom have to. For example, I bought a '60s Classic Strat a couple of weeks ago. I couldn't sell my PRS I wanted to help fund this purchase, but my local dealer gave me a very good trade in, plus lowered the price on the guitar - more than any place I've seen online, which also saved me in taxes. Quid Pro Quo - we both benefitted.

 

I'm in the process of buying a new family van. I'll look all over for the best deal, but I would prefer to buy local, when the time comes. I expect the dealer to make some profit - how else do they stay in business, but I don't expect to be taken advantage of either. Research, negotiating, and respect for each side can go a long way.

[IRG]

I think trying argue ethics, here, is a lost cause. Everyone just wants it cheap. How many Behringer pedals are made in the US? Exactly.

I got rid of my Behringer stuff

[Kassanova]

 

Well the one thing I like about EHX is that in general, their prices are fairly reasonable. I mean look at the Big Muff or Little Big Muff, two of their more popular pedals. Under $75. Bear in mind, EHX is an actual company that employs 60+ workers, in the US, that has to pay US wages, health insurance, etc. The fact that you want their product without paying very much for it, is the Walmart mentality, sorry. You want a lot of cheap products, without paying too much. I'm trying hard to avoid that myself, buying fewer things, but of higher quality. It is hard. Most of us here are on some form of a budget for gear. I have many other things to pay for myself. But a goal of any company is still to make a profit, so they can feed their families too, and pay their employees a reasonable wage. Look at Walmart - many of their employees are paid low wages, and many don't have health care. Guess who pays for their health care needs? The taxpayer. So we all lose here. Except for the Walmart executives.

 

 

I'm not an EXH fanboy. I don't care about Electro-Harmonix. I do care about my own money, so shoot me for not wanting to hand over all of my cash to any given company. See, that's the attitude of a conditioned consumer. In my previous posts, I said the only item that I'm interested in from them is their stereo polyphase - not because I can't get a combination of an envelope filter and phaser from any one of the numerous multi-FX units I already own, but because I like the pedal's character. Its NOT priced along the same lines as Big Muff. The going rate is around $192-$208. Since I don't NEED the pedal, I'm looking for the best deal I can get. I never said their products were overpriced. I said that price bullying is an uncool practice that is usually done by large corporations. Pay whatever you want. I'll buy it used if I can't get it at a reasonable new price. I don't think its cool to bully consumers and regardless to who it hurts, big or small, I'm on the side of the buyer because that's where I stand. I'm not a maker or a seller, so who else should I stand with?

[t_e_l_e]

deep discounts are just not good for local small retailers. I love deep discounts. and discounts provide competition among stores.

hehe and deep discounts make less margin, less margin makes less gain, so the employees have to work cheaper or get fired cause of the loss, unemployments cost the country a lot, so they need higher taxes, higher taxes mean you have not the money for another deep discounted pedal

see the circle? not everything what looks good for one side, must be it for the other, or it must not look so good in the first hand to you at all...

[smrz]

I never said I bought strictly eBay. I said eBay was one of the greatest things to happen to the consumer market and I stand by that. Before eBay, if you wanted to unload your used equipment, you had limited choices - run ads in your local paper in the "for sale" section, take it to a pawn shop and get fleeced or take it to the local music store that sells used equipment and get fleeced. EBay brought about the option of being able to sell gear to people on your own. I don't know about you but I'm a musician FIRST, fanboy second or third. I have no allegiance to ANYBODY'S company. See, that's what I mean by conditioned consumers. Everybody seems to be "brand conditioned" these days to the point that people approach everything from a "favorite team" perspective. I DON'T CARE ABOUT ANYONE ELSE'S COMPANY. My first loyalty is to my own business and I'm not a pedalmaker, pedal seller or an "unauthorized seller" so none of this matters to me. I try products out in the music stores and sometimes I buy them there, AFTER researching the best deal. If its a mom & pop store, I may buy it there but if I am losing a lot of dough on the deal, I'm going where the best deal is. I feel no shame in saying that because I'm not a "conditioned consumer". None of these people are my friends and I owe them nothing. Its all business and depends on what my cashflow is looking like at the moment of purchase. My goal is to get the gear and use it, not try to make somebody happy. If the service is great, I don't mind paying more DEPENDING ON HOW MY CASH FLOW IS AT THE TIME OF PURCHASE. You "rich boys" can side up with whomever you like but I'm on MY side first. I'm not trying to win "consumer of the year", just trying to get what I need to do what I need to do.

 

 

Great, but that's not a sustainable strategy. You're taking services from local businesses and not giving them anything in return. That's a great way to drive them out of business and leave you without the option of trying anything before you buy it. Sometimes your best interest isn't as simple as the rock bottom price. All of this said, I almost never buy new gear (it's too expensive) so this debate doesn't really affect me.

[Kassanova]

Research, negotiating, and respect for each side can go a long way.

 

 

That's exactly what I am saying. I agree wholeheartedly. I buy locally as well - when it benefits me. I don't have the same relationship with my local stores as you. The closest store to me is Guitar Center. I'm definitely not showing allegiance to the Wal-Mart of music stores, so its them against the internet many times. Before GC, the closest local store treated me like sh*t, so I was glad to see GC crush them down to a more humble size. (karma is a bitch).

Our experiences differ, therefore our attitudes towards the stores differ. There's still no harm in looking for a good deal.

[amp_surgeon]

First, all we've seen so far is a copy of a letter which a dealer says they got from EH. We need to see the formal announcement from EH.

Second, a lot of manufacturers set price limits, both high and low, which a dealer must agree to abide by in order to become an authorized dealer. Believe it or not, these price limits are intended to protect the small dealers, who are not getting the deep discounts which the large dealers are getting, and can't afford to go head-to-head in a price war.

Look at it this way - someone invests a sizeable chunk of money in EH products, and get's EH's best dealer price. Without the costs of a B&M store, they put these products on eBay at slightly over cost, well below EH's minimum resale price. None of the legitimate dealers can compete with them, especially the mom 'n pop stores, who end up serving the role as "try before you buy" outlet for the eBay volume dealers. Even though EH is moving a lot of pedals through these volume discounters, they are losing the relationships they've built up with real B&M stores by allowing the volume dealers to cut their legs out from under them.

Most manufacturers stop selling direct once they've established business relationships with dealers and established distribution channels. This is because they don't want to be in direct competition with their own dealers. It makes sense that a manufacturer wouldn't want to see dealers with an unfair market advantage screwing other dealers who don't have that advantage.

This isn't about protecting profits for EH. They get the same amount of money for a pedal no matter who sells it, quantity discounts aside. The quantity dealers on eBay aren't selling the pedals for less than EH's best wholesale price, but they are preventing small dealers from being able to compete.

I can understand why, as a consumer of EH products, this would be upsetting. The volume eBay dealers are where the best prices can be found. We also like to rail against the low quality impersonal service we get from large chains like GC, and swear we'll only patronize our local music shops, while at the same time we're buying gear from eBay dealers who are putting those local shops out of business.

If you're going to spend time in your local music shop trying out gear, you should have the courtesy to give that shop your money when you're ready to buy. If you don't, then that shop might not be there next year, and you'll be left with nothing but the big chains like GC.

[Chris B.]

I'm not a maker or a seller, so who else should I stand with?

OTOH, as long as you persist with that attitude, who will stand WITH YOU?

I have a thirty year (yikes I am old!) history with the same music store. Why would I want to throw that away to save $10-20 bucks?

[smrz]

That's exactly what I am saying. I agree wholeheartedly. I buy locally as well - when it benefits me. I don't have the same relationship with my local stores as you. The closest store to me is Guitar Center. I'm definitely not showing allegiance to the Wal-Mart of music stores, so its them against the internet many times. Before GC, the closest local store treated me like sh*t, so I was glad to see GC crush them down to a more humble size. (karma is a bitch). Our experiences differ, therefore our attitudes towards the stores differ. There's still no harm in looking for a good deal.

If it's GC or the internet, then I couldn't care much less and I'd go for the best price too.

[Kassanova]

Great, but that's not a sustainable strategy. You're taking services from local businesses and not giving them anything in return. That's a great way to drive them out of business and leave you without the option of trying anything before you buy it. Sometimes your best interest isn't as simple as the rock bottom price. All of this said, I almost never buy new gear (it's too expensive) so this debate doesn't really affect me.

 

I use guitar Center as my "try it" spot most of the time. I'm using them. Boo-hoo-hoo. "{censored} Guitar Center" as the song goes. I don't treat small stores like I do GC but I won't bend over for them, either. I don't feel screwed if we both benefited but mom & pop stores can screw you, too if you're uninformed about what you are buying.

[IRG]

I guess I have an unfair advantage in that I know Mike Matthews of EHX, and I get dealer pricing (which is nice, but factor in NYS sales tax and shipping, and it's not as big of an advantage as you would think). But I do care about the company, because I like their products, I want them to continue making innovative products that I like to use, and because this IS a company that cares about musicians and their employees - again, insider information that I have that you don't. You don't care about them, just that you get their gear for less, which is fine I guess. Behringer makes inexpensive stuff, maybe that's more up your alley.

Bottom line - they aren't bullying anyone, and they aren't hurting the consumer, you might think that, but you would be wrong. They are simply trying to have their distributors sell products in a fair and ethical way, and ebay because of rogue dealers, has ceased to be the best venue for them.

[Kassanova]

Like I said, I'm not an EHx fanboy. I have gear from MANY companies and am currently working towards buying an Axe-FX Ultra, so I'm not a pedal fanboy, either. Eventide is "more up my alley" but out of my budget. EHx hasn't invented anything that I can't get elsewhere. My loyalty is to the music, not the products. I'm not a trained, conditioned consumer. I owe them nothing.

My bottom line - I'm buying a stereo polyphase for the best price I can get it, then I'm done with EH until they make something else that interests me.

[DiscoFreq]

Bottom line - they aren't bullying anyone, and they aren't hurting the consumer, you might think that, but you would be wrong. They are simply trying to have their distributors sell products in a fair and ethical way, and ebay because of rogue dealers, has ceased to be the best venue for them.

 

The biggest difference will be for European customers: it's already hard to find local dealers with EH pedals in stock or even with the possibility to order them ("come back after next year's Messe, then we will put a new big order") and twice the US prices. On eBay it's easy to find dealers that ship international, a lot of online shops don't.

 

I like their pedals a lot and I want to pay for that, but when I have to pay twice as much here, EH doesn't get 1 cent of that...

 

Example: the Bi-Filter costs 600 euro from a dealer here that gives me his best prices and about $500 (= 320 euro?) in the US. Same for Moog pedals. It's not his fault, he blames the importer who still uses the same exchange rates as 5 years ago.

[messiah]

Bottom line - they aren't bullying anyone, and they aren't hurting the consumer, you might think that, but you would be wrong. They are simply trying to have their distributors sell products in a fair and ethical way, and ebay because of rogue dealers, has ceased to be the best venue for them.

So maybe you can point everyone in the direction of an authorised EHX dealer list...?

We are authorised EHX dealers, btw.

So, you just allow you're authorised dealers to sell on eBay, if they want to, and ban third parties... simple... if you want to monitor eBay (which EHX will have to do regardless) and tell dealers to stick to MAP's (minimum advertised price), that's fine and easy to follow for everyone.

We have Bricks and Mortar and an eBay store, both of which require ongoing investment and management. Ebay is an important outlet to a small dealer and this whole move stinks of cutting off a leg because of an ingrowing toenail...

What's next? Only dealers paying over

[mikey4402]

hehe and deep discounts make less margin, less margin makes less gain, so the employees have to work cheaper or get fired cause of the loss, unemployments cost the country a lot, so they need higher taxes, higher taxes mean you have not the money for another deep discounted pedal see the circle? not everything what looks good for one side, must be it for the other, or it must not look so good in the first hand to you at all...

I think its funny when people complain about unemployment in the US. Do you know the united states has one of the lowest unemployment rates in the world. its around 5%, now compare that to mexico or china where the unemployment rate is around 25%.

People will always have reason to go to local stores. Less crowded, better service, more frendly people, music lessions. What you are explaning is an extrem.

By not allowing EHX dealers to sell on ebay is NOT going to cause all local stories to go out of business!! GC will not cause all local stories to go out of bussiness!

[IRG]

So maybe you can point everyone in the direction of an authorised EHX dealer list...? We are authorised EHX dealers, btw. So, you just allow you're authorised dealers to sell on eBay, if they want to, and ban third parties... simple... if you want to monitor eBay (which EHX will have to do regardless) and tell dealers to stick to MAP's (minimum advertised price), that's fine and easy to follow for everyone. We have Bricks and Mortar and an eBay store, both of which require ongoing investment and management. Ebay is an important outlet to a small dealer and this whole move stinks of cutting off a leg because of an ingrowing toenail... What's next? Only dealers paying over

[IRG]

By not allowing EHX dealers to sell on ebay is NOT going to cause all local stories to go out of business!! GC will not cause all local stories to go out of bussiness!

 

 

True, on the first point. But it's a sympton, that if repeated enough with other brands, does have an effect.

 

I forgot where I saw this, but often when a GC comes to town, local shops do close up at an alarmingly high rate. Some perhaps, deserve to close. There are certainly {censored}ty M&P shops that don't try to hard, and sometimes competition is a good thing, I'm not arguing that. But there are a lot of good shops that won't be able to compete, and losing just a small amount of business, maybe 5-10% is enough when that, is your profit margin.

[Kassanova]

 

By not allowing EHX dealers to sell on ebay is NOT going to cause all local stories to go out of business!!

 

Exactly. That's consumer conditioning. An attempt to create guilt in the consumer.

[IRG]

The biggest difference will be for European customers: it's already hard to find local dealers with EH pedals in stock or even with the possibility to order them ("come back after next year's Messe, then we will put a new big order") and twice the US prices. On eBay it's easy to find dealers that ship international, a lot of online shops don't. I like their pedals a lot and I want to pay for that, but when I have to pay twice as much here, EH doesn't get 1 cent of that... Example: the Bi-Filter costs 600 euro from a dealer here that gives me his best prices and about $500 (= 320 euro?) in the US. Same for Moog pedals. It's not his fault, he blames the importer who still uses the same exchange rates as 5 years ago.

 

 

Maybe EHX will use a different importer, or allow EU ebay auctions only. I have no idea how this will work, but I understand your position. I wouldn't like that big a discrepency either. I'm not sure who is profiting in this case, the importer?

[lukin]

Yeah, but one of the BIGGEST benefits of an actual store, is that you can try the product out first. If a Big Muff costs $70 in the store, and you can buy it for $65 online without tax (internet sales would also decrease if everything was taxed by the state you live in) what are you really gaining? Saving $5 or $10 maybe $20. More perhaps on a pricier product. I wish I had an EHX dealer close by, I don't. But hearing a product live, to me is worth a slight premium. If I don't like a pedal, I don't buy it. But over the internet, I'm taking a risk as to whether I like it or don't. If I don't, I either have to return it if possible, or resell it and lose money. A lot of dealers will match prices, or should come close. If the price is really quite different, then buy online I guess. I wanted a Traynor amp, and found a dealer locally, although they never stock the tube amps. I found an online advertisement, brought it in and asked if they could order the amp for me, at this price, no problem they said. I could even keep it for a week and return it if I didn't like it. Oh, and the price was $140 less than at MF. So never discount your local dealer. Personally, i would rather have more small shops locally, then a few mega online dealers. I think this is a good move.

Yeah I agree with you about trying out the products. For instance if I am buying an amp, I would always buy it from a local dealer. For a start amps cost a lot more money and shipping etc. is not cheap. I always want to be sure I have chosen the one that is right for me. In some cases stores have been very helpful there and also discuss pricing with you. I probably wouldn't buy an amp second hand, particularly if it is old, just the case with electronics. No different to vintage pedals, I just wouldn't bother buying second hand.

It is the same for new guitars. I really want to be able to pick up a guitar and see how it feels, play it through my amp, etc. In some cases guitar prices for guitars that are less than the import tax threshold are still overpriced here even on the "best price" but it isn't too bad.

The problem with pedals where I live is they do tend to be overpriced in comparison to the U.S. market and stores just don't really have the stock for you to try unfortunately. They tend to stock the obvious and "classics" like Tubescreamers, Crybaby wahs, boss pedals etc. but not much else. I really wanted to try the new Eventide delay and the SMM/H but I couldn't find a store that had them in stock. I got a rough idea of what they could do from reading manuals, information, advice on here, listening to clips and watching videos and decided on one that had the features I want for the price. The positive is that since they are so overpriced here I was sure that I could sell it for a similar price if I was unhappy.

So for me thats the situation with buying effects online. It just isn't always practical to get them from stores even if stores are better for the basics like guitars and amps. If a store happened to stock more products at a reasonable price I wouldn't bother with eBay or MF or anywhere else online. For many I can see why that wouldn't be as much of a problem. I totally agree that I would prefer to pay an extra $5 or $10 or even maybe more if I got to try out the pedals in a store.

Anyway, I guess as people said if I have to I can go to MF and such but I find they tend to overcharge on postage. If I wasn't a uni student, I probably wouldn't have to worry about saving a few dollars here and there and getting my moneys worth though

[IRG]

Yeah I agree with you about trying out the products. For instance if I am buying an amp, I would always buy it from a local dealer. For a start amps cost a lot more money and shipping etc. is not cheap. I always want to be sure I have chosen the one that is right for me. In some cases stores have been very helpful there and also discuss pricing with you. I probably wouldn't buy an amp second hand, particularly if it is old, just the case with electronics. No different to vintage pedals, I just wouldn't bother buying second hand. It is the same for new guitars. I really want to be able to pick up a guitar and see how it feels, play it through my amp, etc. In some cases guitar prices for guitars that are less than the import tax threshold are still overpriced here even on the "best price" but it isn't too bad. The problem with pedals where I live is they do tend to be overpriced in comparison to the U.S. market and stores just don't really have the stock for you to try unfortunately. They tend to stock the obvious and "classics" like Tubescreamers, Crybaby wahs, boss pedals etc. but not much else. I really wanted to try the new Eventide delay and the SMM/H but I couldn't find a store that had them in stock. I got a rough idea of what they could do from reading manuals, information, advice on here, listening to clips and watching videos and decided on one that had the features I want for the price. The positive is that since they are so overpriced here I was sure that I could sell it for a similar price if I was unhappy. So for me thats the situation with buying effects online. It just isn't always practical to get them from stores even if stores are better for the basics like guitars and amps. If a store happened to stock more products at a reasonable price I wouldn't bother with eBay or MF or anywhere else online. For many I can see why that wouldn't be as much of a problem. I totally agree that I would prefer to pay an extra $5 or $10 or even maybe more if I got to try out the pedals in a store. Anyway, I guess as people said if I have to I can go to MF and such but I find they tend to overcharge on postage. If I wasn't a uni student, I probably wouldn't have to worry about saving a few dollars here and there and getting my moneys worth though

Pedal selection where is live is not very good either. Boss, Digitech, BBE maybe MXR soon, that's about it. I buy some things online when I have to, or I buy used from other forumites here, which is great. I guess pedals are sort of a specialty item for the most part, tough for a smaller shop to stock a lot of cool and varied items. So ebay/internet does serve a purpose here. I don't think the issue is just EHX and ebay though, there are a lot of complaints by both sellers and buyers with ebay. GFS has become a popular pickup builder here in the US (guitarfetish.com) and they got their start on ebay. As their reputaiton has grown (thanks in part to ebay, but also forums like here) their dependency on ebay has waned. But the fees from ebay just became too much, especially when you factor in the price of the gear in the first place, so they have left ebay. I keep hearing Google is going to come out with an alternative to ebay, I wonder if that is still going to happen...

[Agreed]

I'm glad to see that we've been able to spark genuine discussion with some social and economic depth in a forum I had worried would forever be plagued by only the latest round of "which X pedal is better?" posts. Let's keep it as civil as possible so we can foster this trend

Rose Lane Music guy - I see that my suspicions are shared by a small dealer such as yourself. Please tell the folks here that GC and MF have an impact which works as a conjunction between their huge purchasing power (and hence better bulk pricing) letting them beat you for price in the general market, and now EHX is stopping adjustable price sales online. If this trend were to spread to other pedal manufacturers, how many pedal lines could you continue to carry profitably?

To everyone - I also agree that the reaction to this news (particularly the jump-to-defense reaction for EHX) does reflect a degree of consumer conditioning. I also think it's because you quite like EHX's pedals. But please try to keep their products and their business practices distinct in your consideration of this move as a policy issue rather than a question of good versus bad pedal making.

[Liberty Belle]

IMO EH is cheap enough and i dont need ebay to try and get the effects cheaper. this doesnt bother me the slightest!