Members SylphCo. Posted June 16, 2008 Members Share Posted June 16, 2008 Uh, the slave trade. Seriously, all that old money is tied to death destruction, and exploitation. Yup. Humans doing what they do best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members NoirAbattoir Posted June 16, 2008 Author Members Share Posted June 16, 2008 Evolution. They will shape the world into something we can't even fathom.Many people feel that things aren't right with the world, and you've shown some examples in this thread, but why? Is there something you intend to do about it? Evolution? {censored}, man, we're not talking thousands of years. We're talking decades. This {censored} has gone down in the last 3 decades and will only take a couple more before we're at utter collapse at this rate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dap99 Posted June 16, 2008 Members Share Posted June 16, 2008 I disagree w/ most of these points. Not everyone has the same opportunities or capabilities. Sure, some people can do what you did. But many others are in situations where it just isn't feasible to go back to school. Or better yet, maybe these people are doing the only work they are qualified for. Not everyone has the same mental/cognitive capabilities. There are plenty of people who barely graduate high school and get a job like driving a subway or bus (respectfully) because that's really all they're qualified to do. Should they be punished b/c their IQ isn't as high as someone else's?Right, and it's great that EVERYONE has that opportunity. Whether or not they capitalize on it is up to them.Yes they do. They also have the option to do something else if they feel they are not paid enough.Go back a few generations... did your family always have cash? I bet at some point, some Grandfather of yours worked his ass off so his kids could have a better life... and then those kids continued the tradition through education and hard work... and now you are reaping the benefits and also want to continue the cycle. You are in a great position to succeed, and should thank the free market and Capitalism for this.Sure they are. If I have people lining up to work for 2 dollars an hour at my company, then that is exactly what they are worth. If it costs 100/hour to get people to work for me, then that's exactly what they are worth. The market determines this, not the business owner.We voted for these people, so instead of complaining I suggest people stand up and take responsibilty for the bad, uneducated choices they made in choosing our elected officials. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members NoirAbattoir Posted June 16, 2008 Author Members Share Posted June 16, 2008 I don't see how I will ever be expendable as long as I have a valuable service to offer the fee marketplace. It's really all up to me. And also keep in mind that even the poorest people in the U.S. are better off than most of the world's population. Ok, let's say you're a highly-skilled technician of some sort. In a global economy, they could pay a third-world technician with the same skill-set a fraction of the cost. Why on earth would they need you anymore? This is happening already with the IT industry. The ability to troubleshoot and fix things over the internet has allowed corporations to outsource to India, paying a fraction of the expense they once paid to a highly-skilled technician in America. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members recovery Posted June 16, 2008 Members Share Posted June 16, 2008 If the most creative always rose to the top, we wouldn't have music charts where horse{censored} records reach number one and sell in huge quantities. The most skilled and creative musicians would also be the most popular. I agree that the motivated reap the benefits. I'd suggest that many of the most motivated business people are also those who aren't particularly philanthropic and those more likely to go with the dubious ethics. If it's on pure hard work alone, I'd say many sous chefs work harder than their executive for less reward. It could be said that CEO's represent executive chefs and that both sets of workers represent a mark where you have earned that wealth. It's a hard one to call. Well, creativity is subjective. I don't like "pop" music, but I am in the minority here. It's called "popular" music because lot's of people like it and are willing to pay for it. I do not think that creativity, hard work, etc are enough on their own. I am suggesting that a combination of hard work, creativity (not just artistic creativity), high-motivation level, education, etc are all components which are part of the "success" equation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SylphCo. Posted June 16, 2008 Members Share Posted June 16, 2008 Evolution? {censored}, man, we're not talking thousands of years. We're talking decades. This {censored} has gone down in the last 3 decades and will only take a couple more before we're at utter collapse at this rate. The human mind is changing with every generation, and that's what makes the difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members recovery Posted June 16, 2008 Members Share Posted June 16, 2008 Ok, let's say you're a highly-skilled technician of some sort. In a global economy, they could pay a third-world technician with the same skill-set a fraction of the cost. Why on earth would they need you anymore? This is happening already with the IT industry. The ability to troubleshoot and fix things over the internet has allowed corporations to outsource to India, paying a fraction of the expense they once paid to a highly-skilled technician in America. Right, and I agree that they SHOULD outsource, that's smart business! Keeping production costs down also keeps down the cost of goods... so the consumer benefits as well. If I were in the IT industry I would have seen this coming and made sure that I prepared for it, via a career change, further education, etc. When you have an oversupply of people qualified to do the same job, the price people are willing to pay for that work decreases. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mynameistaken Posted June 16, 2008 Members Share Posted June 16, 2008 That would be a fine philosophy if people could at least muster middle-class economic status in America. It's really gone south around here, though. I hate to say it, but 5 terms of Republican executives in the last 30 years has destroyed the "American Dream." This is not to suggest that the democrats haven't had a hand in this, they're corporate shills, too. I encourage all Americans to watch the videos. It's not your fault you're struggling. It's not because you can't do it, it's because they won't let you do it. Bill Moyers said, "Consider this: For the past thirty years the productivity of American workers has increased by 76 percent. But their real hourly wages have risen less than two percent. So the paradox is that people are working harder but still falling behind."This {censored} is outrageous. Feeling tired, overworked, underpaid? You are and for no good reason other than lining some rich scumbag's pockets. Blah blah blah... my life is a failure and its all the Republicans fault. Same old crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members HeartfeltDawn Posted June 16, 2008 Members Share Posted June 16, 2008 Right, and it's great that EVERYONE has that opportunity. Whether or not they capitalize on it is up to them. Yes they do. They also have the option to do something else if they feel they are not paid enough. Go back a few generations... did your family always have cash? I bet at some point, some Grandfather of yours worked his ass off so his kids could have a better life... and then those kids continued the tradition through education and hard work... and now you are reaping the benefits and also want to continue the cycle. You are in a great position to succeed, and should thank the free market and Capitalism for this. Sure they are. If I have people lining up to work for 2 dollars an hour at my company, then that is exactly what they are worth. If it costs 100/hour to get people to work for me, then that's exactly what they are worth. The market determines this, not the business owner. No! You miss the point. You seem to come from the branch of people that says "If I have a degree, I automatically should get more money than someone without a degree". My line of thinking is that the subway driver, responsible for hundreds of lives on a daily basis, who works unsociable long hours is as deserving of the same salary as a mid-range accountant who sits at a nice desk all day. Your salary should have to reflec tthe effort you put in and there is as much effort hauling trash or driving a bus loaded with people all day as there is doing tax returns. Here speaketh the former chef and part-qualified accountant My late grandfather did make a good wage thorugh his stringed instrument business. He made his own instruments, wrote a book, bought and sold wisely. When I say my family has money, I don't mean we're rubbing shoulders with the Hilton regime. It's nice to have a couple of thousand in the bank rather than polishing the overdraft again. How my grandfather earned his money is very little to do with the notion of the free market as being discussed here. He provided a service, it was used, he was good at it. He didn't then develop into a corporation, gaining people under him so he could do more. His method of money-making was to fund himself and his life and family, not to grow relentlessly, squashing all other violin dealers underfoot. He was the equivalent of a Mom n' Pop guitar shop. I'm not in a great position to succeed. My education costs more than it did 10 years ago (free 10 years ago, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dap99 Posted June 16, 2008 Members Share Posted June 16, 2008 Right, and I agree that they SHOULD outsource, that's smart business! Keeping production costs down also keeps down the cost of goods... so the consumer benefits as well.If I were in the IT industry I would have seen this coming and made sure that I prepared for it, via a career change, further education, etc. When you have an oversupply of people qualified to do the same job, the price people are willing to pay for that work decreases. Ok, so you'd pay for more education ON TOP of paying off your debts for your current vocation? Fat Effin' Chance! I mean, maybe you could do that - you're superman, but most of us would have a really hard time doing that. Oh, and predicting the future would be a bit tough too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members recovery Posted June 16, 2008 Members Share Posted June 16, 2008 I disagree w/ most of these points. Not everyone has the same opportunities or capabilities. Sure, some people can do what you did. But many others are in situations where it just isn't feasible to go back to school. Or better yet, maybe these people are doing the only work they are qualified for. Not everyone has the same mental/cognitive capabilities. There are plenty of people who barely graduate high school and get a job like driving a subway or bus (respectfully) because that's really all they're qualified to do. Should they be punished b/c their IQ isn't as high as someone else's? Exactly, all people are NOT EQUAL. That is a fact. If you can barely graduate high school, for whatever reason, you will not have the same opportunities as someone who is highly motivated and intelligent. So many people seem to take issue with this fact, but what is wrong with this? Why is this considered "punishment"? If someone is qualified to collect trash, the can still live a productive and successful life in the U.S. They can CHOOSE to live frugally and responsibly, and in turn perhaps their kids can enjoy a better life... and this will continue through the generations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members recovery Posted June 16, 2008 Members Share Posted June 16, 2008 Blah blah blah... my life is a failure and its all the Republicans fault. Same old crap. Vote for Obama and you will see unprecedented re-distribution of income. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members NoirAbattoir Posted June 16, 2008 Author Members Share Posted June 16, 2008 Right, and I agree that they SHOULD outsource, that's smart business! Keeping production costs down also keeps down the cost of goods... so the consumer benefits as well. If I were in the IT industry I would have seen this coming and made sure that I prepared for it, via a career change, further education, etc. When you have an oversupply of people qualified to do the same job, the price people are willing to pay for that work decreases. The "IT" industry began like 12 years ago. Listen, everyone is entitled to their opinion. This thread is simply a word to the wise and a call to all people interested in equity in our country. We shouldn't stand for this crap any longer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members HeartfeltDawn Posted June 16, 2008 Members Share Posted June 16, 2008 I disagree w/ most of these points. Not everyone has the same opportunities or capabilities. Sure, some people can do what you did. But many others are in situations where it just isn't feasible to go back to school. Or better yet, maybe these people are doing the only work they are qualified for. Not everyone has the same mental/cognitive capabilities. There are plenty of people who barely graduate high school and get a job like driving a subway or bus (respectfully) because that's really all they're qualified to do. Should they be punished b/c their IQ isn't as high as someone else's? Agreed. Those bus drivers might drive a couple of thousand people around every day. Over the course of a year, that bus driver is responsible for the safety of maybe 200,000 lives a year. With that level of responsibility, shouldn't he be rewarded financially? An accountant isn't reponsible for lives. A CEO for a corporation has limited legal liability in many areas should trouble strike. This is part of my argument with the whole 'I've got a degree therefore should earn more than someone without a degree' mentality. Higher education has been converted into a financial success tool, a tool to gain promotion. The artistic side of the degree, learning for learning's sake, has been killed. I've mentioned James Callaghan here before and his Ruskin College speech in 1976 is still very important for my country as its messages of education not purely being for acquiring work skills is highly relevant. http://education.guardian.co.uk/thegreatdebate/story/0,9860,574645,00.html Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dap99 Posted June 16, 2008 Members Share Posted June 16, 2008 Exactly, all people are NOT EQUAL. That is a fact. If you can barely graduate high school, for whatever reason, you will not have the same opportunities as someone who is highly motivated and intelligent.So many people seem to take issue with this fact, but what is wrong with this? Why is this considered "punishment"?If someone is qualified to collect trash, the can still live a productive and successful life in the U.S. They can CHOOSE to live frugally and responsibly, and in turn perhaps their kids can enjoy a better life... and this will continue through the generations. See this was true 30-40 years ago when education, housing, health care, etc were affordable. It was possible to do better than your parents. But that's not the case anymore. If you look at the quality of life of bus drivers etc, compared to today, I'm sure we'd see that those in the past would not have been able to provide their kids the opportunities the were able to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members NoirAbattoir Posted June 16, 2008 Author Members Share Posted June 16, 2008 Exactly, all people are NOT EQUAL. That is a fact. If you can barely graduate high school, for whatever reason, you will not have the same opportunities as someone who is highly motivated and intelligent. So many people seem to take issue with this fact, but what is wrong with this? Why is this considered "punishment"? If someone is qualified to collect trash, the can still live a productive and successful life in the U.S. They can CHOOSE to live frugally and responsibly, and in turn perhaps their kids can enjoy a better life... and this will continue through the generations. This is about a "living" wage for all. People shouldn't have to work three {censored} jobs to support a small family. Who the hell is going to raise the kids. Wait, no more kids. We should all climb into pods to serve the needs of corporations. Our lives aren't worth anything compared to their bottom lines. You guys sound like drones. Life is to be lived, and not under the thumb of corporate America. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members HeartfeltDawn Posted June 16, 2008 Members Share Posted June 16, 2008 Exactly, all people are NOT EQUAL. That is a fact. If you can barely graduate high school, for whatever reason, you will not have the same opportunities as someone who is highly motivated and intelligent.So many people seem to take issue with this fact, but what is wrong with this? Why is this considered "punishment"?If someone is qualified to collect trash, the can still live a productive and successful life in the U.S. They can CHOOSE to live frugally and responsibly, and in turn perhaps their kids can enjoy a better life... and this will continue through the generations. Ah, but they are forced to live frugally because they're paid a {censored}ty wage. I'd say they should be paid a decent wage to do a most unappealling job. Again, I'll go back to comparing the garbage driver to the IT guy in the air-conditioned office. The garbage driver gets no AC unit, no secretary, no comfy chair, no chilled water dispenser yet he does a physically demanding and rather stinky job. It doens't take huge brain power but it's a demanding job. Shouldn't he therefore get a good wage that actually rivals the IT guy sat on his ass all day in his nice office programming databases? If the garbage man gets no comfortable work environment benefits like the iT man, shouldn't he therefore have a greater claim to a salary that compensates him for the {censored}ty working conditions? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members NoirAbattoir Posted June 16, 2008 Author Members Share Posted June 16, 2008 Blah blah blah... my life is a failure and its all the Republicans fault. Same old crap. Wow, I bet your contribution to society is about as useful as your contribution to this thread. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members indigoguy Posted June 16, 2008 Members Share Posted June 16, 2008 Nobody is forced to work... or shop... at Walmart. However there is a huge population of unmotivated or under-educated people that are more than happy to take these jobs (or shop there because of affordable merchandise).The fact is, not everyone has a PHD or is highly skileld at a trade. Those who are reap the benefits of their efforts.Shouls a Wal-Mart clerk make the same wage as an electrical engineer? OF course not. Well, what is a fair wage then? THE MARKET DETERMINES THIS AND THAT'S WHY CAPITALISM IS FAIR. I'll say it again, people are paid what they are worth (not what they THINK they are worth). Mate, you are talking nonsense. What if everyone thought they were worth a professional wage/worked hard and had a phd (for instance)? Who is going to work in stores/clean offices etc? The fact is that these zero reward (intellectually/creatively speaking) jobs NEED to be done by someone in the kind of society we have. The alienation of workers from what they produce and their resultant dependence on the market to supply their own basic needs (food/shelter etc) will always result in there being crappy jobs that NEED to be done. The fact that you consider these people in some way inferior, despite the social importance of what they do says a lot more about the chip on your shoulder than it does about your grasp of economics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members indigoguy Posted June 16, 2008 Members Share Posted June 16, 2008 Ah, but they are forced to live frugally because they're paid a {censored}ty wage. I'd say they should be paid a decent wage to do a most unappealling job. Again, I'll go back to comparing the garbage driver to the IT guy in the air-conditioned office. The garbage driver gets no AC unit, no secretary, no comfy chair, no chilled water dispenser yet he does a physically demanding and rather stinky job. It doens't take huge brain power but it's a demanding job. Shouldn't he therefore get a good wage that actually rivals the IT guy sat on his ass all day in his nice office programming databases? If the garbage man gets no comfortable work environment benefits like the iT man, shouldn't he therefore have a greater claim to a salary that compensates him for the {censored}ty working conditions? and a +1 to this too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members NoirAbattoir Posted June 16, 2008 Author Members Share Posted June 16, 2008 Doesn't it scare anyone that the largest employers in America are Wal-Mart and McDonalds? Your children, grand-children, great grand-children will have such a shining future ahead of them... operating the fryolator. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members recovery Posted June 16, 2008 Members Share Posted June 16, 2008 If you have peopel lined up at your company to work for 2 dollars an hour, that's a pretty sad reflection on society that there are people prepared to work for that wage. That's not paying them what they're worth. It's offering up a {censored}ty salary and seeing which desperate mother{censored}ers will take it, if any. If you paid people 100 bucks an hour for the same job, then that's not paying them what they're worth, it's paying them a ridiculous salary that any budgetary department would question immediately and then call the nearest psychiatrist to get his advice on what to do with you The numbers are arbitrary, all I am suggesting here is that as the business owner I do not control how much a certain job or skill is worth, the market does.If a town needs 100 taxi drivers, but there are 200 taxis out on the street, I'm sorry but fares are going to drop because they have become "less valuable". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members NoirAbattoir Posted June 16, 2008 Author Members Share Posted June 16, 2008 Mate, you are talking nonsense. What if everyone thought they were worth a professional wage/worked hard and had a phd (for instance)? Who is going to work in stores/clean offices etc? The fact is that these zero reward (intellectually/creatively speaking) jobs NEED to be done by someone in the kind of society we have. The alienation of workers from what they produce and their resultant dependence on the market to supply their own basic needs (food/shelter etc) will always result in there being crappy jobs that NEED to be done. The fact that you consider these people in some way inferior, despite the social importance of what they do says a lot more about the chip on your shoulder than it does about your grasp of economics. Thanks, you said it better than I. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members recovery Posted June 16, 2008 Members Share Posted June 16, 2008 Ok, so you'd pay for more education ON TOP of paying off your debts for your current vocation? Fat Effin' Chance! I mean, maybe you could do that - you're superman, but most of us would have a really hard time doing that. Oh, and predicting the future would be a bit tough too. With regards to predicting the future... it's quite easy to research general economic and industry trends. For example, if I look on the internet and see that unprecedented number of young people are going to school for the IT field, I can safely say that there may be a surplus of that worker in the coming years. And I can chart my career path accordingly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tetaJ Posted June 16, 2008 Members Share Posted June 16, 2008 http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=17808622 i said this one year ago and everyone {censored}ted on me, i think you did too..... well, i can only remember the french revolution. by the way, {censored} neoliberalism too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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