Thinking about Behringer, Dano CC, and Ethics.

[melx]

I've edited this post myself because I think on reflection I could have chosen my words better, reading it back now I was way over the top for the point I was really making. I was in a bad mood and I brought that into the forum....not good. I can't be bothered to re-write the whole thing, so I have just removed it.

 

Melx

[Silverburst LP]

Do you really care if some corporate bigwig at Maxon only makes $250,412.00 in a year instead of $251,398.00 or do you care about your own sound and wallet?

It's business. Will you buy the same steak for 25$ that you can get for 12$ because someone stole a recipe? Who cares? Do you know these people? {censored} 'em anyway for charging so much... Maxon's analog delay 300$??? They can go {censored} themselves. What does it do, make echoes or grant wishes?

[gunnerthekiwi]

Do you really care if some corporate bigwig at Maxon only makes $250,412.00 in a year instead of $251,398.00 or do you care about your own sound and wallet? It's business. Will you buy the same steak for 25$ that you can get for 12$ because someone stole a recipe? Who cares? Do you know these people? {censored} 'em anyway for charging so much... Maxon's analog delay 300$??? They can go {censored} themselves. What does it do, make echoes or grant wishes?

 

 

Well said.

[Agreed]

Edit: You know what, {censored} it, doesn't merit the follow-up.

[melx]

Edit: You know what, {censored} it, doesn't merit the follow-up.

It's a tough world in buisness and with the current state of the economy I'm suprised anyone is buying handmade boutique overdrives to be honest or anything they don't really need. 2 local firms have gone bust near me, massive manufacturing places (plastics and electronics) They've been major employers in the area for as long as I've been alive and hundreds of people (some who I know) have lost their jobs. This forum where people buy handmade pedals every week is not reality, its a very small bubble.... most people want something usable and cheap and that's just the way it is. Your right, it doesn't really even merit discussion (let alone a follow up) So one man has to stop making overdrive pedals and get a real job like the rest of us, well sorry if I don't lose sleep over it but it's a piss in the ocean compared to the reality around me.

This forum makes me want to puke at the moment.

[Agreed]

This forum makes me want to puke at the moment.

 

 

Oh, I definitely agree with that bit.

[ninjaaron]

Condescending much?

 

 

Yeah, sometimes. Mostly only with kids that remind me of myself when I was their age.

 

If you don't think there is an ethical problem, then fine. If you think there might be an ethical problem, but you can't be bothered to define it, or that there is an ethical problem, but you just don't care, then you're either immoral, or you're a teenager.

 

Not to say that their are no teenagers with ethics, but I sure wasn't one. When I read your post, it sounded like me when I was that age, not caring about ethics. Could have mis-read your intentions, I suppose.

 

Tell me I'm wrong, and I'll believe you.

[ninjaaron]

Do you really care if some corporate bigwig at Maxon only makes $250,412.00 in a year instead of $251,398.00 or do you care about your own sound and wallet?

Simply put, yes, I care about the corprate big wig as much as I care about my own sound and wallet (in theory, at least. I may sometimes be inconsistant in the application of my values). Corprate big wigs spend lots of money, and create lots of jobs. I'm sure middle class people, and perhaps poor people, work for maxon as well. There are also the jobs of those people to consider, in addition to my own sound and wallet.

If worst comes to worst, I'm willing to go without a desired effect, or wait until I can afford it

[ninjaaron]

But let's dwell on that for a second because it's not without its wrinkles... getting a patent on a circuit is really expensive and problematic. It relies more on having money and making very creative claims that are lucky enough to get past the clerk assigned to your patent application than on anything else. Compare it to copyright, the legal protection that artists have against their work being misappropriated and "cloned." I could eat a mediocre burger at a restaurant and write a song about indigestion down on a napkin; without any steps being taken on my part, I have the copyright to that song. I didn't invent English, I didn't invent grammar, I didn't invent music, and I didn't invent the genre whose conventions made writing the song easy. And frankly I'm probably not doing anything very creative within any of those big frameworks, either. But from the moment I wish I had some pepto and write it down on that napkin, it is mine , legally. Yet a pedal builder who sets out to achieve some specific goals and does so in a way which combines electronic concepts that are well understood but nonetheless in a novel configuration has no protection over anything but the artwork that constitutes the circuit board, if he has one.

This is a great analogy.

Though I disagree that that morality must always be line of sight. It comes down to that in specific cases, but I also think a principled system of ethics can be very beneficial to the society that espouses it, as guidelines for that 'line of sight'. That's essentially the basis for our legal system: we have principles, but they are applied to fit each situation as the judge and jury deems to be appropiate.

Not that this point of view coming from me probably surprizes you.


I'm totally 'that guy.'

[Gunner Recall]

In the end people care about their own wallets...how does it affect ME.

An interesting fact I noticed from previous dano ethics threads was WHO was involved seemed to matter to people...
A few people mentioned "well I don't care if they rip off frantone or paulc...but if they ever clone XYZ I'm going to be pissed"

[onyxrhino]

This is how I see it....and it's good for us as consumers and pretty much the way everything works. yeah, behringers look similar to Boss, but then my Panasonic DVD player looks very similar to a Sony Model....they have similar features too! it's very similar to 'high street' fashion where the clothes are directly inspired (ripped off) from designer clothing from the catwalk. Is anyone complaining there? (i'm not talking about fake goods here btw) ....but back to music....amplifiers, how many amps have truely unique sounds and looks? .... or totally original circuits for that matter? They all pretty much 'steal' idea's from each other, that goes back and forth and pushes manufactuers to improve all the time and sell them for lower prices.....who side are we on here? companies or normal people like us who buy this stuff? imagine if the only guitar you could buy with a tunamatic style bridge was a gibson les paul.

 

 

+1

 

Somedays it seems like corksniffer types would just rather there were only 1 kind of guitar in the world, and each one cost 10K, so then only middle aged doctors and lawyers could call themselves "guitarists".

 

The thing that I find funny about the whole deal is how so many people at TGP and here rejoiced when Danelectro promised to revise the circuits in their "clone" pedals. Mind you, they would still be made in China and would still be sold as a cheap overdrive alternative, but those things really didn't seem to bother people. It was the idea that some poor kid could walk into a local shop and walk out with a $30 pedal that might sound identical to their precious boutique that they spent hundreds on and/or waited on a list for, that really bugged them IMO. Just another example of the privileged wanting to keep the poor in their place.

[melx]

+1 Somedays it seems like corksniffer types would just rather there were only 1 kind of guitar in the world, and each one cost 10K, so then only middle aged doctors and lawyers could call themselves "guitarists". The thing that I find funny about the whole deal is how so many people at TGP and here rejoiced when Danelectro promised to revise the circuits in their "clone" pedals. Mind you, they would still be made in China and would still be sold as a cheap overdrive alternative, but those things really didn't seem to bother people. It was the idea that some poor kid could walk into a local shop and walk out with a $30 pedal that might sound identical to their precious boutique that they spent hundreds on and/or waited on a list for, that really bugged them IMO. Just another example of the privileged wanting to keep the poor in their place.

You know what I always love about you onyx?

That I can never guess before hand if you are going to agree with me or bash me to death!!

.............either way, I always respect your opinion because I know it's honest.

[NetStar]

{censored} me most of the people on this forum didn't even know how to buy a Timmy until all this {censored} came about!!.

 

 

And there we have the beautiful irony.

[ninjaaron]

The thing that I find funny about the whole deal is how so many people at TGP and here rejoiced when Danelectro promised to revise the circuits in their "clone" pedals. Mind you, they would still be made in China and would still be sold as a cheap overdrive alternative, but those things really didn't seem to bother people. It was the idea that some poor kid could walk into a local shop and walk out with a $30 pedal that might sound identical to their precious boutique that they spent hundreds on and/or waited on a list for, that really bugged them IMO. Just another example of the privileged wanting to keep the poor in their place.

 

 

I think there is some truth to this, unfortunately.

 

Of course, the fact that there are people like that at TGP doesn't make Dano selling a clone of relatively new boutique ciruits right (doesn't make it wrong either. I'm still on the fence about this one, though I tend to think there is an ethical problem that I am having difficulty to define).

 

By the way, for perspective, on where I'm coming from, I own one of the Behr clones, but it's of a vintage pedal, not a newer one. I also own a couple of pedals that they are cloning; PS-5 and Big Muff. I have never owned a Timmy (though I would like to try one eventually), a Peachfuzz, an OCD, or any of the pedals that Dano is reported to be cloning, nor have I owned any dano pedals besides F&C.

 

A lot of my perspective comes from the fact that I am starting to design my own ciruits, and I'm trying to extend other people the same courtesy I would hope to receive. Golden Rule'd.

[Agreed]

+1 Somedays it seems like corksniffer types would just rather there were only 1 kind of guitar in the world, and each one cost 10K, so then only middle aged doctors and lawyers could call themselves "guitarists". The thing that I find funny about the whole deal is how so many people at TGP and here rejoiced when Danelectro promised to revise the circuits in their "clone" pedals. Mind you, they would still be made in China and would still be sold as a cheap overdrive alternative, but those things really didn't seem to bother people. It was the idea that some poor kid could walk into a local shop and walk out with a $30 pedal that might sound identical to their precious boutique that they spent hundreds on and/or waited on a list for, that really bugged them IMO. Just another example of the privileged wanting to keep the poor in their place.

 

 

Very impressive straw man, but it doesn't at all explain why plenty of people here and at TGP adore the Bad Monkey and other cheap, great sounding pedals. Rather it's just a way for you to frame the debate in such a way as to make the other side seem evil and ugly, but your perspective is quite skewed in exactly the opposite way. If I were to try to bend this back towards you, I would phrase it like this:

 

"He's clearly not taking into account the many cheap pedals that no one here or at TGP has a problem with. What's really bothering him is his sense of spite and malice that there are those who have more resources than him, and he'll try to use anything he can reach for, no matter how thin, to insult and demean the people he calls 'privileged.'"

 

Internet psychoanalytic reductionism is fruitless and a great road to saying really petty {censored} about people you don't know at all.

[onyxrhino]

You know what I always love about you onyx? That I can never guess before hand if you are going to agree with me or bash me to death!! .............either way, I always respect your opinion because I know it's honest.

To be fair, I think I'm pretty much in agreement with you on 99% of threads. It's usually just those pesky religious discussions that put us on opposing sides. That said, I don't think I've bashed you on any of those in awhile either. If so, it wasn't my intention.

[melx]

Very impressive straw man, but it doesn't at all explain why plenty of people here and at TGP adore the Bad Monkey and other cheap, great sounding pedals.

but do they really? I know people say they like the bad monkey (and it is a decent pedal for the money) but how many do you see on boards? did the battle of the boards winners have Bad monkey's on them? In 'what's you favorite OD' threads how many say 'Bad Monkey'?


Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see that much love for cheap pedals here at all.... there was coolcat love a while back but now they are 'the devil' everyone can hate them again and I suspect that some people wanted a reason to hate them..... well, something more credible than 'they look ugly' anyway. I dunno I'm not sure on this one..... it's an interesting angle though and I will do my best to stay polite.

[Rogueweez]

I'll recommend the Bad Monkey, but I'm usually the only one. Seems like most forumites OD recommendations start at the Timmy and go up from there.

[onyxrhino]

Very impressive straw man, but it doesn't at all explain why plenty of people here and at TGP adore the Bad Monkey and other cheap, great sounding pedals. Rather it's just a way for you to frame the debate in such a way as to make the other side seem evil and ugly, but your perspective is quite skewed in exactly the opposite way. If I were to try to bend this back towards you, I would phrase it like this: "He's clearly not taking into account the many cheap pedals that no one here or at TGP has a problem with. What's really bothering him is his sense of spite and malice that there are those who have more resources than him, and he'll try to use anything he can reach for, no matter how thin, to insult and demean the people he calls 'privileged.'" Internet psychoanalytic reductionism is fruitless and a great road to saying really petty {censored} about people you don't know at all.

Are you disputing that there were positive reactions on both here and TGP when Danelectro first announced that they would be revising the Cool Cat line?

[melx]

To be fair, I think I'm pretty much in agreement with you on 99% of threads. It's usually just those pesky religious discussions that put us on opposing sides. That said, I don't think I've bashed you on any of those in awhile either. If so, it wasn't my intention.

 

lol, yeah.....I really need to stay out of those threads, in real life I wouldn't even bother getting involved in the discussion (because even though it might not seem it on here, I really don't care about any of it that much) but for some reason I can't help myself clicking on them and getting myself annoyed which honestly isn't what I come on here for!!!!

 

anyway sometimes I need a good bashing, at times you've really {censored}ed me off with your comments but after I log off and think about it I realise I was probably talking {censored}e.

[Agreed]

Are you disputing that there were positive reactions on both here and TGP when Danelectro first announced that they would be revising the Cool Cat line?

 

I'm disputing your totally concocted explanation for it.

[onyxrhino]

lol, yeah.....I really need to stay out of those threads, in real life I wouldn't even bother getting involved in the discussion (because even though it might not seem it on here, I really don't care about any of it that much) but for some reason I can't help myself clicking on them and getting myself annoyed which honestly isn't what I come on here for!!!! anyway sometimes I need a good bashing, at times you've really {censored}ed me off with your comments but after I log off and think about it I realise I was probably talking {censored}e.

Yeah, I keep meaning to stay out of those threads too. I get the same way, though probably for the opposite reasons. And I'm not even a happy, church-going, whatever. I just don't like to see intolerance in general.

I'm sort of new to messageboards, so I probably got a bit overheated myself back in the day. Then, I realized that I was just here to kill time and have fun and there wasn't much point in starting long term pissing matches or trading essays about why I'm right and someone else is wrong, etc...

but yeah, melx, you're good in my book.

[Agreed]

but do they really? I know people say they like the bad monkey (and it is a decent pedal for the money) but how many do you see on boards? did the battle of the boards winners have Bad monkey's on them? In 'what's you favorite OD' threads how many say 'Bad Monkey'? Maybe I'm wrong, but I don't see that much love for cheap pedals here at all.... there was coolcat love a while back but now they are 'the devil' everyone can hate them again and I suspect that some people wanted a reason to hate them..... well, something more credible than 'they look ugly' anyway. I dunno I'm not sure on this one..... it's an interesting angle though and I will do my best to stay polite.

 

I honestly don't know anything about that, I don't really involve myself too deeply in a lot of what goes on at the forums in either place as far as popularity contests and pissing matches go. I've never posted a picture of my gear all at once, what's the damned point? It's never in that condition naturally, I have some stuff here in the studio and some stuff by my amps, it would be a pain in the ass to "frame" a photo with it all and I would feel stupidly narcissistic.

 

I do know that I have had a Bad Monkey for a long time and I don't keep pedals I don't like. I recommend it for people asking for a good value overdrive, and others usually chime in positively as well.

 

The EHX Linear Power Booster is another pretty commonly appreciated inexpensive pedal. The DOD Milk Box compressor is recommended around. The Fish n' Chips EQ was at one time the absolute darling of this forum, and still gets mentioned any time someone asks about an EQ.

 

Am I suggesting that there isn't a strong more expensive=necessarily better mindset among some people? No, not at all, the evidence is ample to suggest that some posters here and at TGP really do look down on inexpensive stuff. You'll see it posted sometimes that "X can't possibly sound as good as a $300 pedal" when someone says that X is just as good as Y - and I do mean just like that, the claim isn't made "X can't possibly sound as good as Y," I really have seen people just say "it couldn't sound as good as a $300 pedal." But that is not, in my experience, the majority here, and TGP has a mix of perspectives as well.

 

More to the point, it's a far {censored}ing cry from "people at a gear-focused web site tend to advocate expensive gear" to "the privileged hate the poor and are actively oppressing them by attacking Danelectro, the only reason that they even care is because they paid more for this pedal and now poor people can have it." You need actual evidence to say something like that, otherwise it's just a lot of angry bull{censored}.

[onyxrhino]

More to the point, it's a far {censored}ing cry from "people at a gear-focused web site tend to advocate expensive gear" to "the privileged hate the poor and are actively oppressing them by attacking Danelectro, the only reason that they even care is because they paid more for this pedal and now poor people can have it." You need actual evidence to say something like that, otherwise it's just a lot of angry bull{censored}.

Now that's what I call a "straw man argument".

[Agreed]

Sometimes you're called upon to defend your beliefs, especially when they are controversial or accuse others of bad faith. If you can't justify it, and you don't have any good reasons you can give for believing it, then why would you say something like that in the first place?