Sending MIDI Program Change to External Devices: Korg or Yamaha?

[ggm1960]

To be specific about what this post is about, here's what I do at live gigs:

 

Between songs I spin the jog wheel of my Roland XP-30 keyboard. The patch change triggers a MOTU MTP AV to send MIDI program change messages to several external devices.

 

As an abbreviated example, one jog wheel spin tells a Lexicon MX200 set internally to respond on channel 14 to change to patch number 48 while at the same time my Digitech RP2000 guitar effects unit (set to respond on channel 13) is told to change to patch 37, Antares AVP-1 on channel 15 to patch 11, etc...

The purpose, of course, is to quickly change sound and effects preset patches for different songs on several devices at once between songs.

If this is something you're doing, have done, or know something about I might have some questions for you, especially if you're using a Korg Triton/TR or Yamaha Motif series keyboard to do it.

 

The system works great but it's quite a hassle to make setup changes when we add new songs or change the setlist.

Those in the know understand that I could use the Roland XP-30 in Performance Mode to accomplish the same objective and it would be much easier to make my changes. The problem of course, is that this older model only has 32 user performance locations, not enough to cover a nights worth of songs. Now, I know I could reuse some patches and what not to squeeze into this limitation and in fact, I am doing that as part of my backup plan so let's not go there.

 

The simple solution for me would be to upgrade to a Roland Fantom keyboard, which has 64 user performance presets, and get on with my life. Well......... I thought I was gonna do that when I bought the Fantom XR rackmount unit only to discover that the rackmount units won't send MIDI control messages out the MIDI port! Yes it's a fact and trust me on it or go check it out for yourself.

 

So I've decided that perhaps I should consider the Yamaha Motif or Korg Triton/TR series keyboards to replace my aging XP-30 and be able to do what I need to do.

 

This is where the questions begin. I've done some manual reading and have visited more specific Yamaha/Korg forums so I have a general knowledge of the units I'm considering. For example I know that the Yamaha units use Zones and the Korg units use Combinations. I've also been informed that it might be easier to use the built in sequencers on these units to send my program change messages.

I actually have a Korg X5D synth. I'd deciphered the manual enough to glean that one should be able to use "combis" to send messages to up to eight external devices, however, I could never get that to work.

 

So is anyone using a Korg Triton/TR or Yamaha Motif ES/XS series keyboard to control external devices, specifically send midi program change messages? What method(s) work best? Is the Korg easier to setup than the Yamaha or vis versa? Sequencer, combis, or zones? Why?

[ggm1960]

You see xmlguy, I told you no one in KSS does this kind of stuff! This is the kind of thing large tours do, I've yet to find a hometown band like mine doing any of this kind of stuff.

[Delicious Lamprey Problem]

I've set up a few zone configurations on my XS6 to control my Nord Rack 2X, it took no time at all. Seems to work as designed.

[xmlguy]

Just because you don't catch any fish doesn't mean that there are no hungry fish in the pond.

 

Based merely on the rudeness and attitude that you display in your replies, you should consider yourself lucky if anyone responds at all. I've got a Triton Extreme sitting 10 feet away from me, but no MOTU MTP AV, so your lottery ticket FAILS.

[Cydonia]

If you plan buying a new keyboard controller and budget is not a problem, go Kurzweil (either used PC2 series or new PC3 series). Their MIDI implementation and controller options are way better than Yamkorgland. If you have limited budget, then call midisolutions (or add dot com to find their site and products).

[ElectricPuppy]

I think you're doing it the hard way.

 

Make your gear's patch memory work for you instead of against you. For example, copy all the patches on everything you use for your first song to patch #1. For the second song, have all the patches you need on everything copied to patch 2, and so on. None of this convoluted patch mapping crap. Hit progam change 1, and Voila! Everything loads patch 1 which has everything you need!

 

If you happen to use the same patch accross several songs, just copy it around. Patch memory is for YOU to use as you see fit, not to keep filled with factory presets you don't need.

[ggm1960]

 

I think you're doing it the hard way. Make your gear's patch memory work for you instead of against you. For example, copy all the patches on everything you use for your first song to patch #1. For the second song, have all the patches you need on everything copied to patch 2, and so on. None of this convoluted patch mapping crap. Hit progam change 1, and Voila! Everything loads patch 1 which has everything you need! If you happen to use the same patch accross several songs, just copy it around. Patch memory is for YOU to use as you see fit, not to keep filled with factory presets you don't need.

 

 

Yes, this has been suggested before and on the surface it seems like a good idea. The problem though is that the Antares AVP-1 unit only has 35 user preset locations. As far as the unit itself that is more than enough since it's primarily used for the autotune function but it won't allow for the method you suggest.

[ggm1960]

 

If you plan buying a new keyboard controller and budget is not a problem, go Kurzweil (either used PC2 series or new PC3 series). Their MIDI implementation and controller options are way better than Yamkorgland.

 

 

My research indicated that the external midi control functionality of the Kurzweil units is less flexible that the Yahama and Korg units. It's actually rather a shame as I've always preferred the Kurzweil piano sounds.

 

It would be great if you could give me some factual data like....... what "midi implementation" and/or "options" you're talking about that might be specific to the application I'd outlined.

[ggm1960]

Just because you don't catch any fish doesn't mean that there are no hungry fish in the pond. Based merely on the rudeness and attitude that you display in your replies, you should consider yourself lucky if anyone responds at all. I've got a Triton Extreme sitting 10 feet away from me, but no MOTU MTP AV, so your lottery ticket FAILS.

 

Frankly, if you'd have had as much trouble trying to find peers in this endeavor as I have over the last couple years you'd be a bit frustrated too.

 

I always appreciate people trying to help, it's an open forum and there's nothing better than that in my opinion but at the risk of being rude I'd just as soon get no responses rather than lots of off topic, off the wall, or just plain pig-headed opinions with no relevance to the topic.

 

Let me use your response here for example. It would be great to know, and discuss, the technical details of how to use the Triton Extreme in the topic application but..................what does the MOTU MTP AV have to do with it???? And "your lottery ticket FAILS"?? What the hell is that supposed to mean?

 

For whatever reason, instead of having an intelligent, informative or stimulating technical discussion you prefer to waste your time trying to initiate an insult and/or pissing contest.

[ggm1960]

I've set up a few zone configurations on my XS6 to control my Nord Rack 2X, it took no time at all. Seems to work as designed.

 

How many external devices could you control using zones with the XS? I did some manual reading and IIRC the newer XS models have eight zones while the older ES units only had four?

 

What kind of thing(s) do you setup, or midi messages you send to the Nord?

[xmlguy]

Yeah, that'll do it.

[SpaceNorman]

I'm not sure I'm following this conversation.... If I'm understanding you correctly - it sound like what you're trying to do is select a single present on a single keyboard and have that button push issue program change commands to multiple MIDI devices (i.e., setup your entire rig for a tune with the push of a single button...).

 

My search for this capability came up with two approaches. The first is a "hardware" approach - i.e., using a keyboard that supports multiple external MIDI zones - with the limit on the number of external devices that can be controlled determined by the number of external MIDI zones the keyboard supports. In my case both of my keyboards (a Yamaha CP300 and a Roland RD700SX) are both capable of supporting up to 4 external zones - which is sufficient for me because I'm using a total of 3 MIDI devices. To this end - I use the CP300 as the primary controller. It provides a matrix of 64 memory locations - the contents of which can be stored in a "Performance File" (the definition of a set all 64 presets). Multiple performance files can be created and stored on the CP300 - meaning that I can swap the entire 64 "preset" patch setup with a couple of button pushes. The 64 voices are setup in four banks of 16 voices each. This means I can take the setlist for a night - put the songs for each set in a single bank - assigned in buttons in order of play (i.e, 1st Set -1st song = Bank A Patch #1, 1st Set - 2nd song = Bank A, Patch #2, .... 2nd Set - 5th Song = Bank B Patch #5, etc.). By swapping out entire "Performance Files" - I can create multiple nights worth of song lists - with each individual patch setting up the CP300 as well as sending the Program Change Data (and some additional info - such as octave shifts) to both my RD700SX and my Motif ES rack unit - for a true "one button" setup of my rig for each song.

 

The second approach is a "software" approach - i.e., using a patch librarian tool such as Midiquest to system setups in software (on a laptop) and then pushing that info out to the various devices. The software approach will certainly allow you to control more devices (i.e., you're not limited to a set number of external zones). I bought a copy of Midiquest with the intent of using it in this manner - but found a couple of challenges. First, I discovered that if they didn't have an interface developed for the synth / MIDI device you're looking to control - the complexity of trying to set up something generic goes thru the roof ( MIDIQuest send SYSEX commands to the devices it controls....). Second, there's the added complexity of having to incorporate a laptop into your rig which added alot of complexity. When the CP300 came along - I abandoned trying to use Midiquest in this capacity. These days I simply use MIDIquest to provide the programming interface to my Motif ES Rack unit. It works quite well in that capacity. I'm keeping my eye peeled hoping that I'll see a Midiquest update that adds interfaces for the CP300 and the RD700SX - which will allow me to use Midiquest as the programming interface for these devices. The PC based interface is soooo much more convenient than any of the hardware interfaces on the keyboards themselves! Hell, just being able so type in patch names from a QWERTY keyboard without having to step through an ASCII character set one character at a time would be wonderful!!!!! I wish that synth manufacturers would start providing a software interface for EVERY keyboard they sell for that reason alone!

[Delicious Lamprey Problem]

 

How many external devices could you control using zones with the XS? I did some manual reading and IIRC the newer XS models have eight zones while the older ES units only had four? What kind of thing(s) do you setup, or midi messages you send to the Nord?

 

 

You're right - the XS has eight zones. So, you have sixteen channels, eight zones, mix them up however you like! I'm currently sending bank and program changes to the Nord, and of course playing it too. When I'm sequencing, I set the Nord up on channels 1, 2, 3 & 4 (the Nord has 4 "slots", each hold a program), and use the remaining 12 tracks for internal sounds. They could quite as easily be used to control other MIDI devices too, if I had any.

[ggm1960]

I'm not sure I'm following this conversation.... If I'm understanding you correctly - it sound like what you're trying to do is select a single present on a single keyboard and have that button push issue program change commands to multiple MIDI devices (i.e., setup your entire rig for a tune with the push of a single button...).

 

You are most definitely following the conversation .

 

It's not something I'm trying to do though, it's something I have been doing for quite some time; and my method of doing it has also "evolved" over time from the PC software approach to the PC software/hardware hybrid approach to the hardware approach and now I'd like to update my hardware approach.

I certainly find the hardware approach the most reliable and easiest "in use" although I'd gladly return to the software/hardware hybrid approach if the proper programs existed for OSX, but I digress.

 

I'm not really trying to find out how to do it so much as I'm trying to find the best way to update my method to make setting it up simpler.

 

If you've read my original post you'll recall that I stated the Roland XP-30 was limiting my preferred hardware approach.

Last year I found a work-around in the MOTU Midi Timepiece II and AV units. These 8x8 midi interface units have some great features that do all the midi control and other messaging a guy could possibly want but sadly only about three of the people that ever bought these units over the years used those features.

As a result MOTU doesn't support these features anymore and the only way to access them is with the not altogether friendly and somewhat quirky OS9 version of the MOTU Clockworks program on an older Mac computer running OS9.

Obviously this is obsolete and doomed to die a slow death.

 

Although this system works rock solid in use, setup changes can be a real pain in the ass. I not only have to deal with the quirky old OS9 program, I also have to redo the patches in the XP-30 to coincide (albeit more easily done using the SoundDiver program that came with that keyboard).

 

So you see......

The time has come for me to seriously consider a keyboard update/upgrade. A workstation keyboard that I can setup to do all my external controlling without the need for other hardware "helpers".

 

All this (and the "Roland factor" from my original post) has lead to me zoning in on the Korg Triton/TR or Yamaha ES/XS series of workstations.

 

I was hoping some forum members, experienced with these units, would have some advice or opinions on what would be the best way to setup one or the other of these units to best implement my external midi control application.

[ggm1960]

 

You're right - the XS has eight zones. So, you have sixteen channels, eight zones, mix them up however you like! I'm currently sending bank and program changes to the Nord, and of course playing it too. When I'm sequencing, I set the Nord up on channels 1, 2, 3 & 4 (the Nord has 4 "slots", each hold a program), and use the remaining 12 tracks for internal sounds. They could quite as easily be used to control other MIDI devices too, if I had any.

 

 

So you use the XS onboard sequencer to play back through the Nord? Can you put program change messages into your sequence and have sounds on the Nord change while the sequence is playing?

[Delicious Lamprey Problem]

Yes, to both questions!

[Cydonia]

 

My research indicated that the external midi control functionality of the Kurzweil units is less flexible that the Yahama and Korg units. It's actually rather a shame as I've always preferred the Kurzweil piano sounds. It would be great if you could give me some factual data like....... what "midi implementation" and/or "options" you're talking about that might be specific to the application I'd outlined.

 

 

Well, the more MIDI external sound modules and effect units, the more complicated it is to program. With instruments like the Kurzweil PC2 or PC3 series, one can simplify especially in terms of external effects boxes since the KDFX offer just about everything (150 effects in the PC2, 300 effects in the PC3). Of course, this assuming you would want to use the Kurzweil internal sounds. If you absolutely need to keep every external device in your current stuff, then as previously mentioned by Space Norman the software solution is usually the way to go to simplify MIDI programming, although you need to work with a computer onstage.

 

Facts... PC2 series : 128 user-programmable setups / 4 zones so 4 independent MIDI program changes sent locally and/or externally. PC3 series : 1024 user-programmable setups / 16 zones so 16 independent MIDI program changes sent locally and/or externally. Both series can also assign setup and program changes to buttons, pedals, etc.

 

Personally, with just two controllers - a PC2X and MIDIboard (178 setups / 8 zones / programmable MIDI/SYSEX strings, poly AT, etc.) - I've never met a situation in which I could not do exactly what I wanted in terms of MIDI. Of course, it takes time to program compared to using a computer + patch librarian software, but I prefer relying on hardware whenever possible.

[ggm1960]

 

I think you're doing it the hard way. Make your gear's patch memory work for you instead of against you. For example, copy all the patches on everything you use for your first song to patch #1. For the second song, have all the patches you need on everything copied to patch 2, and so on. None of this convoluted patch mapping crap. Hit progam change 1, and Voila! Everything loads patch 1 which has everything you need! If you happen to use the same patch accross several songs, just copy it around. Patch memory is for YOU to use as you see fit, not to keep filled with factory presets you don't need.

 

 

One other big snafu I neglected to mention about this method:

 

When you add new songs, remove songs or just change your set list order you'll have to go to every one of your devices and change around all the patches on every one, a major pain in the ass.

[ggm1960]

Yes, to both questions!

 

Thanks! You're being very helpful.

 

So.... now I could set each of the 8 zones to send a different program change message on a different channel out the midi port. So when I have a "set" of zones how I want them do I save that setup as a patch? performance? How many of these could I save on the unit or do I have to load them from a computer?

 

The other method would just be to use the sequencer I suppose but then would I have to load the "songs" into the unit everytime when I turned it on?

[Delicious Lamprey Problem]

Thanks! You're being very helpful. So.... now I could set each of the 8 zones to send a different program change message on a different channel out the midi port. So when I have a "set" of zones how I want them do I save that setup as a patch? performance? How many of these could I save on the unit or do I have to load them from a computer? The other method would just be to use the sequencer I suppose but then would I have to load the "songs" into the unit everytime when I turned it on?

 

You're welcome! Now, tell you what - I suggest you go take a look over at http://www.motifator.com - there's a link from the main page to "Behind The Manual", which has some documentation on master mode setups. I think that's what you're after.

 

Oh, and yes, a zone equates to a channel.

[ggm1960]

 

it takes time to program compared to using a computer + patch librarian software, but I prefer relying on hardware whenever possible.

 

 

Doesn't this unit come with some sort of PC and/or OSX editor/librarian program??

[ggm1960]

You're welcome! Now, tell you what - I suggest you go take a look over at http://www.motifator.com - there's a link from the main page to "Behind The Manual", which has some documentation on master mode setups. I think that's what you're after. Oh, and yes, a zone equates to a channel.

 

I have been to that site's forum and done some other reading there also, it's the reason I know what little I do know about these units.

 

I will read up more on the master modes though, thanks for your help.