How to make sure you/your Nord sound good and loud enough at the FOH?

[joemmi]

Hi,

 

my band just changed the sound engineer who invested some 5 grand in a decent PA (Yamaha Mixer & 2 RCF-A322 and Subwoofer) and we started practicing with it.

 

Now that we have for the time being the whole PA for rehearsals I could do more in-depth analysis of the sound the audience is gonna hear at the shows.

And unfortunately I am pretty dissappointed!

I am playing mainly a Nord Stage and I like the sound when being played alone through the PA or my Monitor (a Yamaha Stagepas 250M), and it's clear and reasonable loud.

 

however, when we start playing all together, I barely can hear myself from the PA, just Bass, Singer, Drums and (mainly!) guitar and saxophone.

After trying several things such as using a DI box, different Gain, Fader & NS volume settings and the compressor on the stage, I still cannot get a decent sound which is clearly present when the full band is playing.

And if I put the volume at the stage full up, high gain on the mixer, I get clipping if I play expressive sounds such as piano or Rhodes. Also some EQing did not improve the situation.

 

 

I am reading HC for a while know and recall the nice phrase of a Synth "cutting through in a mix" or "sitting well in a mix" while I never was quite sure what it meant, and what physics are behind this description, but it feels that's what I mean??!

In particular, the guitar (a Fender Strat which sounds AMAZING through the PA) and the sax might be too much given they occupy a similar frequency range???

 

 

Bottom line, while on stage I always can turn up my monitor to be able to hear myself at a decent volume, I REALLY would like to know how to be able to be heard also by the audience. Not that I care too much about my ego, but if I get a gig with all its hassle setup, I want at least be present in the music. I read some great stories about the keyboarder's role in a band and in the sound and that it probably is our fate to be hardly recognized, which is OK.

But at least for MY ears I would like to know how to make myself heard and moreover understand what is exactly going on when you onlyhear the guitar while you are almost breaking your keys.

 

I even thought of getting a better keyboard which might "cut through better" or getting my own graphic EQ (if it helps) or Preamp or Compressor (would it help??)

 

anyway, usually at concerts, you let the FOH to the sound guy and on stage with a high powered Monitor for yourself and earplugs it's ok. But given I now had time to dig into the other side of the scene, I definitely need something to be done to make the band sound more "complete".

 

Thanks for sharing ideas experiences and hints!

 

Johannes

[Metrosonus]

the obvious question is how does it sound through the PA alone? if it sounds reasonable, it's simply a mixing problem, if it sounds muted it may be a technical problem such as a connection, bad cord ect. if you're playing small venues (pubs), i'd really only run the vocals and your keyboard through the PA and i'd let everone else use their own amps.

[Tusks]

Try:

 

- use a field recorder to record your practice/soundcheck.

- control your volumes (solo, integral riff, backing) so that the sound man doesn't turn you down for the wrong reasons

- control the octave in which you play, so that you complement the other instruments (this can be a double edged sword if the guitar player gets the male voice frequencies and relegates you to female or higher frequencies)

- talk to your mates

[dgelas]

use the Compressor inside your Nordstage, in order to limit big level variations

 

play in frequencies (octaves) that are not already used by other instruments

and/or play in the beat not used by other intruments, not in the same time/rythme

[dan88z]

It sounds like a soundman issue to me. There is no reason why your keyboard shouldn't be heard clearly thru the PA.

 

Use your amp to monitor yourself and provide sound for the band on stage. Let the PA carry your sound to the room. The soundman should know how to mix and EQ all the instruments to they sit in their proper place. Too often keys are the forgotten thing in the mix, while the drums end up being far too loud for what is needed.

[plaid_emu]

Are you positive the sound engineer knows what he's doing, or he isn't just giving priority to the other band members? I'm amazed and appalled by the number of "professionals" out there who couldn't mix their way out of a paper bag (not sure how that analogy is relevant but I'm sure you get my point).

 

I went to see Skinny Puppy on their most recent tours. The Greater Wrong of the Right show sounded excellent. The mix was full and heavy (but not too loud) and you could clearly distinguish the separate instruments and vocals. Sounded awesome!

 

The last tour for Mythmaker was probably the biggest disappointment ever. The mix was terrible and so {censored}ing loud it was literally painful. That's the first time I've ever felt compelled to actually stick my fingers in my ears during a show. It was that bad. Not only was the volume just insane and unreasonable, you couldn't even hear the vocals properly over the drums and there was this layer of distortion over EVERYTHING because I'm pretty damn sure the FOH guy was pushing it all so hard the entire mix was clipping.

 

The worst part was I missed them in Ohio, so we drove all the way to {censored}ing Atlanta to catch that particular show.

[joemmi]

Hi, thanks for your comments.

 

I tried some compressing but parcitularly with pianos I feel it sounds quite "boring" as much of the expression is gone. But will try some more to see if it helps.

I thought of it being a soundman's problem, but he complained about the signal (have to say he is quite a rookie). And I though about EQing, but we have one of these Yamaha 16 Channel mixers with two graphic EQs 32-or-so band, but they are obviously global so I am not sure how to properly EQ the piano with one Low, one High and one Middle semiparametric (with adjustable frequency) EQ per channel I can get a good mix. And moreover, I would need to tweak the other instrus as well no??

 

I liked the comment to "talk to your guys". Maybe that is really an issue. As keyboarder who is more into technical stuff and also harmony etc., it is easier to talk to the sound man. And , sorry, but I cam really pissed of to tell the guitar player EVERY TIME to turn down his volume, realy can't stand it anymore, as he does not understand it whatsoever, while the others seemingly don't care or don't have problems with it. ARGHH!!

 

Continuing the quest for decent sound..

[Tusks]

 

I liked the comment to "talk to your guys". Maybe that is really an issue. As keyboarder who is more into technical stuff and also harmony etc., it is easier to talk to the sound man. And , sorry, but I cam really pissed of to tell the guitar player EVERY TIME to turn down his volume, realy can't stand it anymore, as he does not understand it whatsoever, while the others seemingly don't care or don't have problems with it. ARGHH!!

 

 

This appears to be the heart of the problem.

 

If the guitar player wants to be the loudest instrument in the band, and he is the most influential band member, he will get what he wants. if you are influential you will get what you want, or at least something you can live with.

 

I would record the band and invite all the members to a listening party in someone's home. Sound them out as to what they like or dislike about the mix. See if all of you can achieve consensus on goals.

 

If you start off by asking the guitarist to turn down, you will fail. You must be willing to say what you want. "I want to be heard." Not what others must do. "My leads must be loud and clear, at the moment they cannot be heard."

 

Over time, you will either build a team you can enjoy playing with, or you will decide it's not worth the trouble. But you must talk .... and listen.

 

How much experience do you have in bands? Who is the leader of this band, and who is most influential other than the leader? (optional question) How old are the people in your band?

 

All the best,

 

Jerry

[Jercat]

From my experience with loud guitar players:

 

Ask him if he can hear everyone else. Ask him if he can hear you. The first rule of good stage volume is that if you can't hear the other instruments...YOU are too loud.

 

If the guitar player is just plain DEAF (like mine) go to earbuds for your personal monitor and tell the sound guy to let the stage volume carry the guitar (take him out of the PA mix entirely).

 

It's really sad that more musicians can't see a band as a 'team' thing. Everyone has their role and place to make it a COMPLETE sound.

[tspit74]

In my opinion, this is the great drawback of digital keyboards. Digital is great because it's convenience, portability, and versatility. Unfortunately,in my experience, I've found that no matter what I do or how loud I turn my digitals up, all the sound gets sucked up the second another instrument starts playing. the band starts, you turn up louder and louder and louder and still can't cut. Then the band stops and your keyboard comes roaring into the room like a DC-10. I never, ever have this problem with any of my analogue keys. Since the only band I actually play out in public with is a parody band that requires me to use my QS8, I just suck it up and accept it. For me, digital boards only work for me with headphones or in a project studio environment.

 

However, if I needed digital to work live, I'd most likely save some lunch money and buy one of those tube preamp pedals from vintage vibe. I have a feeling that that's exactly what their products address. I would think that you need some serious analogue weight in the chain.

 

Another thing I might want to try is an audiophile quality DAC (digital to analogue converter) from an audiophile stereo shop to get the most out of your digital signal. Keyboards, like cd players, are fitted with the cheapest built-in DAC's money can buy (similar to car companies using cheap tires. Everyone has their own preference. They just want you to be able to drive it off the lot and most people don't know or care about tires). Serious players will use a favorite DAC and override the built in ones if they really care about tone. That's one of the reasons you've got that digital output on the back.

 

Of course, adding a good DAC will require more expensive cables. Ever shop for audiophile cables for your stereo? I'm not talking about the $50 Monster cables the kid from Best Buy tries to sell you when you buy that 7 DVD carousel. Real cables (and Monster does make some) are very expensive and very subjective.

 

I have no doubt that these thing would bring out the best in your rig. But it is opening a serious can of worms. How much are you willing to suffer for tone and to be heard?

[joemmi]

 

How much experience do you have in bands? Who is the leader of this band, and who is most influential other than the leader? (optional question) How old are the people in your band?)

 

 

Hi Jerry, I used to play in a coupe of bands and had soundwise the best time when the guitar guy was good but played very gently and little. Influental is a good point. In most cases, I had the feeling that there are several coalitions formed which might change over time and in my actual band, the guitar is not the band leader but likes to talk a lot (is also far younger than the others with 22 years) (while the actual founder and leader is a rather quiet bass player).

But it sounds reasonable to not criticize but rather express wishes/needs (sounds liek some managers counseling kind of thing but is probably true!) The listening exercise sounds like a good idea.

 

"Then the band stops and your keyboard comes roaring into the room like a DC-10."

Exactly, this on the other hand makes me think whether it is not actually a question of relative volume but of the mix/frequencies or instrument type of technical thing. I considered using one of these speakeasy or so preamps but am not sure that would help. And what do they with the Piano, where you probably want to be as linear as possible but where the problem remains?? Moreover, since you cannot try them out and they are a bit $$$, I might wait, even though I REALLY want to improve the sound & balance in the band...

[wetwareinterface]

i do sound a lot for a cover band that does disco and pop dance tracks.

 

if the keyboards can not be heard in the mix i have a couple of suggestions.

 

1.) and take this thought seriously, you are deaf to the sound you are producing from driving your own volume too loud for too long. I get this a lot as i am very protective of my ears and still have full range of hearing, but people will always come up and criticize my mixing with the "guitar is too quiet, look I do sound all the time..." comment. these are guys who can't hear a guitar anymore and unless you crank it for them they are deaf to it. which i never ever do, if i can hear the guitar and vocals and bass and keys and drums clearly it's their problem they cannot. yoiu may be suffering from deaf musician syndrom. to check ask the singer to step off the stage for a minute and tell you if you are clear in the mix during a practice or have a friend stop by a rehearsal for a minute and see if they can hear you clearly. if they can you are deaf.

 

2.) soundguy has no control over input volume to the mixer and is too scared to tell someone to turn down their amp or too inexperienced to do it. i constantly fight this fight with the bass player in the band i do sound for. i am always telling him to turn his amp down as i end up having zero control over his volume in the foh cause his bass amp is louder than the pa and i turn him down and he's still above everyone else. i am lucky in that the guitar player doesn't have mega "me louder than everyone else" issues and he is also the guy who is in charge of the band and owns the p.a. and if the keyboard player's monitor amp is too loud he will back me in telling him to turn it down as well as the bass amp and his own amp. if you talk to the soundguy and ask him if he thinks the guitar volume at the amp is beyond what he can control to keep it in line with everyone else and he says it is...

help him by both of you going to the guitar player and stating he simply has to turn down as 1 the soundguy can't control him and 2 you can't hear much of what you're playing on stage due to his amp drowning yours out and it's causing an issue. work with the soundguy.

 

3.) you need to ditch the thought of expressive playing live in a band situation. turn off velocity response entirely or set a velocity curve as close to max velocity for light playing as possible. do not use compression on your nord stage or in an external unit. crank up every patch to max without distortion and use a limiter after the fact to send a good solid loud signal. you are not soloing for a piano recital, you are playing in a band, ditch the expressive playing and learn to bang out the tune at the same volume no matter what sound you're playing. this means sitting at home ahead of time and changing all your patches to equal the same volume across the board. it's okay and will actually sound better live in a band than doing the expressive playing thing.

[frogmonkey]

I don't think the Nord should have a problem "cutting through" and being present in the mix. You shouldn't need a preamp or a fancy D-A converter. On the other hand, guitar players shouldn't be so loud and annoying, so all these "shouldn't"s aren't doing us any good.

 

When you plug into the FOH mixer, do you use one of the stereo channels? If you do, and everyone else goes into one of the mono channels, it could be that everyone else gets boosted by the mixer's mic preamps but not you. I find that even the preamps in a cheap Behringer mixer are better than nothing-- when I had synths running through the stereo channels I often got complaints about low signal from that synths. Now I use a Mackie VLZ mixer and it is 100 times better. Or you could get a stereo preamp... what I'm trying to say is that it doesn't have to be an expensive Speakeasy to boost your signal and sound good.

 

For piano, you might try using one of the other samples available from Nord. The best sounding sample for solo piano playing is not the same as the best sample for playing in a rock band. IMO brighter piano sounds with more treble work better in rock bands-- not the dark Steinway samples.

 

I don't think compression is the answer.

[The Pro]

Several quick thoughts:

 

* Try a different keyboard... the outputs of the Nord Stage may not be very hot.

 

* All direct boxes are not the same... you may have to invest in a better quality unit. Visit your local music store and take your current DI box with you to compare.

 

* Also, make sure your current direct box isn't defective. I recently went through a situation where the soundman and I went to war over the FOH keyboard sound only to try switching the DI box which fixed everything.

 

* Join a different band. Some musicians are too stupid to work with. Once you get the keyboard sounds at the right FOH volume your egotistical guitarists may quit anyway.

[erok123]

Have you thought about some EQ? Boost the mid and upper midrange frequencies a bit. That can help a lot.

 

Eric

[Tusks]

One of the things we tend to with lineups like yours, is to map a song this way

 

Song1

Verse - guitar

Chorus - guitar, B3, Sax

Bridge - guitar, B3, Sax

 

Song 2

Intro - piano

Verse - Piano, Guitar

Choruse - B3, Guitar, Sax

 

etc.

 

Is it clear to the members of the band, who is anchoring a particular bit of the song? Hope thishelps,

 

Jerry