Members xmlguy Posted August 1, 2009 Members Share Posted August 1, 2009 If you can't hear the improvement of a stereo multisampled piano over a mono one, then I merely feel bad for you and it's not worth trying to convince you otherwise about what you're missing. The ear drums don't "hear" anything. The cochlea does the hearing and is far more complex than your apparent understanding of it. Ears are not built like a microphone with a single coil picking up a single signal. The cochlea has many stereocilia attached to many nerves that pick up different frequencies with different nerves. The direction that the sound enters the ear changes the pattern in which the nerves pick up the sounds. I can hear a distinct difference based on my position relative to the piano, with my eyes closed. I can even tell what direction the piano is facing within a few degrees. I can do that by listening to various clues, the most obvious being that the high notes are more directional than the low notes, and the position of the strings inside relative to the sounding board make it easy to hear the direction it's pointed. Your ears aren't monophonic either. They have many nerves located in many different locations, and my brain, at least, can use these multiple sound receptors to determine the location by reflection. This is one reason why ears have a direction. If you snap your fingers in a 360 degree circle at the same distance around my right ear with the left ear plugged, I can accurately point to the direction of the sound with my eyes closed. It can't be merely a time difference, since at the same distance, there is no difference if I was listening with a monophonic ear "drum". Hearing is far more complex than a sum of two monophonic audio inputs, or any other calculation of two monophonic signals. That merely displays a complete ignorance of the complexity of human hearing, as demonstrated by the mistake that the ear "drums" do any hearing at all. You might want to read up a bit on human anatomy of the ear before you try to hold on to your line of argument. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members grumphh Posted August 1, 2009 Members Share Posted August 1, 2009 The direction that the sound enters the ear changes the pattern in which the nerves pick up the sounds.... If you snap your fingers in a 360 degree circle at the same distance around my right ear with the left ear plugged, I can accurately point to the direction of the sound with my eyes closed. It can't be merely a time difference, since at the same distance, there is no difference if I was listening with a monophonic ear "drum".Hearing is far more complex than a sum of two monophonic audio inputs, or any other calculation of two monophonic signals. That merely displays a complete ignorance of the complexity of human hearing, as demonstrated by the mistake that the ear "drums" do any hearing at all. You might want to read up a bit on human anatomy of the ear before you try to hold on to your line of argument.I do know how the ear functions - hence the argument. First one is wrong. The ear drum is the membrane/transducer that translates sound waves (perssure waves in air) into pressure waves that move first through bone and then through fluid in the cochlea. There is no directional sensitivity there.At all. One ear alone is totally monophonic in its reception of sound waves. Just like you would have a hard time getting a stereo image from one single loudspeaker. Second example, yes, there is a difference in tone as you move a sound source around your head - because the head deflects or blocks sound waves and the signal reaching your ear from different angles will indeed sound different because of the mass blocking the sound waves. But the directional information you think you hear is actually your brain decoding the sonic position information according to learned schemes such as change of timbre and volume. As for the piano part, yes obviously as the player you can hear the stereo image because the piano is physically large and you sit right next to it. But as a part of an audience sitting more than say 7 M (appr. 20' ) away i am certain that there is no more stereo to be heard and you will hear a piano as a mono sound source where you can only discern its direction in relation to your position, but not its actual angle positioned in the room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members llamastorm Posted August 1, 2009 Members Share Posted August 1, 2009 In theory if the speakers are spread out, you are also simulating a really messed up super large piano as big as the stage or something Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members xmlguy Posted August 2, 2009 Members Share Posted August 2, 2009 I'll simply appeal to the empirical evidence to avoid straying any further from the thread topic. A stereo sample sent to a good stereo PA system sounds better. Stereo monitors of a stereo keyboard/synth sounds as good or better than a mono amp or monitor, except perhaps in the case of a specialized system such as Leslie Speaker, which itself has indisputably proven its coolness from a different kind of multidirectional and doppler effect that makes the ears perk up like a dog hearing a dinner bell. It may all be in the mind, but I'm salivating anyways because I've been conditioned to really like it when I hear more complex waves bouncing around my head. That partly explains why I really like doing arpeggiated bits with a LCR delay to hit the audience from a wide soundfield instead of a single wall of sound attacking from the stage. I love super large sounding synths and keyboards, so much so that I design my patches with that goal specifically in mind for my music. But if a keyboardist plays a mono sound well, I can enjoy a well played riff from a single source. When you have a PA system designed to handle stereo, it's easy enough to pan everying to center, but if you have a mono PA, then you're SOL when it comes to any possibility of making use of interesting and cool sounding stereo sources and effects. The main reason I'm responding in this thread is because I've had more than enough problems with soundmen who are convinced that I should be perfectly happy with mono output, when they simply don't understand that mono doesn't work for me. I've never seen a soundman bitching to a keyboardist about receiving a mono output sent to the stereo PA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Cygnus64 Posted August 2, 2009 Members Share Posted August 2, 2009 Mono blows. The OP is talkin bout a home setup, not Madison Square. He needs stereo. Plug in to your home stereo or get some active monitors, they are blowing out KRKs real cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members grumphh Posted August 2, 2009 Members Share Posted August 2, 2009 when they simply don't understand that mono doesn't work for me. Spoiled brat, eh? Well, stereo doesn't work for an audience either. Physics. Sound travels at appr. 1' /second so any person sitting away from the center listening position will get a progressively worse phase cancellation as you move towards the sides. Then there is the problem of balanced sound from two speakers - because again - as you move from the center position one speaker will supply more volume than the other. Leaving your beautiful stereo ping pong delay as only half an audible signal to the people positioned at the sides of the venue... Stereo works fine at home (and possibly in your personal monitors onstage, if you really need the sound in your head) where it gives a psychoaccoustic illlusion of an actual space. Live it turns to mush. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members pogo97 Posted August 2, 2009 Members Share Posted August 2, 2009 Hey Grumphh, seventeen more posts denying the value of stereo and dismissing the experience of all the other posters and... maybe... you'll finally be right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members grumphh Posted August 2, 2009 Members Share Posted August 2, 2009 Hey Grumphh, seventeen more posts denying the value of stereo and dismissing the experience of all the other posters and... maybe... you'll finally be right. Physics are with me on this one. Stereo is an emulation of spatial perception and it works well, as many decades of stereo recordings have proven - but it has its limitations, the main one being listening position. Very simply put: If you don't sit in the exact middle of your stereo speakers the effect is actually loss of audio information from the speaker you sit the furthest from. ...or an even better example. Try to create a stereo mix at home, but make sure that your monitors are NOT at even distances to your ears. Move one a meter further back than the other one. That should teach you about the importance of the listening position when we speak stereo. And this would be different to audiences how? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members NuSkoolTone Posted August 2, 2009 Members Share Posted August 2, 2009 It depends. Some bass setups are pretty high-fi stuff and pretty much anything you put through them will sound amazing. That said, if it's your run of the mill stuff generally keyboard amps will sound better because of a better tailored frequency response. "Stereo" Keyboard amps are a good start, but never sound as good as a true stereo rig. Of course, the BEST sounding setup is into a pair of monitors (Studio or Live ones). You'll get nice frequency response and STEREO. If you have more than one board to amplify run them through a little mixer first. If you intend to keep your gear for a while, I recommend going with the last option, because you'll want it eventually anyway. I don't play through keyboard amps anymore! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wildpaws Posted August 2, 2009 Members Share Posted August 2, 2009 Stereo matters if you sit in the ideal position to get the full effect.I am from the good old days when "stereo" was something that was sorted out in the mix, not coming from the instrument itself.This also means that i still run all my synths into the mixer as mono synths.If i need a stero effect - that is exactly what effects boxes are designed to do.A neutral amp with full range speakers will sound good. Even in mono. That's fine unless you are using patches that have stereo panning, etc., simply won't hear it running in mono. A lot of the patches I use involve panning and other stereo effects that would be next to impossible to re-create after the fact with an effects unit, it is part of the patch programming. Stereo came out in the '50s-'60s, isn't it time to move into the 21st century and run gear in stereo?? As far as the OP, there are many ways you can go that will be acceptable sounding, it depends on how much you are willing to invest. Certainly a home stereo with decent speakers can work, I prefer to have something that is more flexible for my needs so I use a pair of Yamaha S300 speakers (15" woofer, 6" mid, horn tweeter) along with a pair of EV SH1502ER speakers (15" woofer and a horn) coupled with a Yamaha 12 channel mixer and a Yamaha 265W rms per channel stereo power amp. This setup works well for me playing at home or on small venue gigs, so I'm very pleased with it.Clyde Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members grumphh Posted August 2, 2009 Members Share Posted August 2, 2009 That's fine unless you are using patches that have stereo panning, etc., simply won't hear it running in mono.Clyde I have already said that stereo is great for listening to recordings. But in a live situation if a member of your audience sits next to the right PA speaker he/she will not be able to hear the left half of your wonderful stereo ping pong echo. Why would you not want your audience to hear the entire signal as it should sound, and not just half of it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members xmlguy Posted August 2, 2009 Members Share Posted August 2, 2009 Hey Grumphh, seventeen more posts denying the value of stereo and dismissing the experience of all the other posters and...maybe...you'll finally be right. Methinks he is deaf in one ear. It's pointless to explain it to him. The world has moved to stereo and well beyond, for live and recordings. Nearly every PA system is configured and run as stereo for mains, even if the soundman chooses to run dual mono with channels panned center for most things that are sent as mono. To assert in general and without qualification that stereo causes live music to sound bad is a utterly laughable and ridiculous assertion which is easily dismissed by the thousands of concerts that are run in stereo with good sound. Nearly every live mixer is designed specifically for stereo mains. It's also not surprising to find that grumpff doesn't even participate in the Live Sound forum here, and probably couldn't run a concert to save his life. I've been doing live sound for more than 20 years, having worked for a live mixer manufacturer, and having designed and built my own live mixers by hand from components and PCB fabrication. Oh, and the speed of sound in dry air is 1,125 feet per second, which doesn't have much impact at all on stereo PA for small venues, and is more of a problem from front-to-back for huge/stadium/ampitheatre size venues when running mid towers that need to be put on delay, not from left to right between stereo channels. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members grumphh Posted August 2, 2009 Members Share Posted August 2, 2009 Methinks he is deaf in one ear. It's pointless to explain it to him. The world has moved to stereo and well beyond, for live and recordings. Nearly every PA system is configured and run as stereo for mains, even if the soundman chooses to run dual mono with channels panned center for most things that are sent as mono. To assert in general and without qualification that stereo causes live music to sound bad is a utterly laughable and ridiculous assertion which is easily dismissed by the thousands of concerts that are run in stereo with good sound. Nearly every live mixer is designed specifically for stereo mains. It's also not surprising to find that grumpff doesn't even participate in the Live Sound forum here, and probably couldn't run a concert to save his life. I've been doing live sound for more than 20 years, having worked for a live mixer manufacturer, and having designed and built my own live mixers by hand from components and PCB fabrication.Oh, and the speed of sound in dry air is 1,125 feet per second, which doesn't have much impact at all on stereo PA for small venues, and is more of a problem from front-to-back for huge/stadium/ampitheatre size venues when running mid towers that need to be put on delay, not from left to right between stereo channels. About the speed of sound i made a mistake - i meant to write appr. 1' / mS, which is good enough for phase cancellation effects even over short distances. As for outdoor concerts, everyone knows that the best sound you will hear is pretty much when standing right in front of the mixing booth, everywhere else it is just noisy garbled washes. Usually the sound isn't why anyone goes to outdoors concerts anyway though... And even though you from your high and mighty centre position as "the soundman" (insert chorus of admiring "oohs" and "aaaahs") might hear a wonderful stereo image, the bloody idiots (also known as audience) at the sides of the venue/ground are not hearing that. At best they hear an imbalanced mix, at worst they completely miss what is going on in the set of speakers furthest from them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members llamastorm Posted August 2, 2009 Members Share Posted August 2, 2009 Yep, try standing anywhere in front of the left or right PA stack (is that the right word?) and ask if you hear the other. You can't. This is usually where I end up Most live venues echo like hell anyway. The soundboard recording is going to vastly surpass what you hear live. Maybe there you will notice (maybe). In your car? Probably not. Also, if you move further away, it's as if they were a point source. Maybe occasionally at the far back of a nice concert hall in a relatively uncranked set without a lot of guitars you'd notice stereo. Maybe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members xmlguy Posted August 3, 2009 Members Share Posted August 3, 2009 Good soundmen can and do walk around the venue with the goal to minimize problem areas and maximize good areas. The majority of the work goes into the PA configuration to match the venue in advance of the show, but those of us who work in teams can do adjustments not only during sound checks but also after the venue fills. While there is a limit of our tools to correct particularly bad acoustic positions, the venue management usually wants to fill those seats regardless. Running stereo in a live venue is definitely different than a recording studio. I see no problem delivering better sound to those within the stereo soundfield so long as it doesn't come at the expense of those outside of it. If you can only hear one side of a stereo sampled piano, it still sounds like a piano. Getting back to the original topic, there are quite a few stereo keyboard amps, however I much prefer a powered PA speaker acting as floor monitor to the right and left of my rig, or better yet, my own IEM earbuds. The powered PA speakers give a lot more bang for the buck than any amp. However, owners of the Traynor amps seem happy with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JohnBenussi Posted August 3, 2009 Members Share Posted August 3, 2009 If you can't hear the improvement of a stereo multisampled piano over a mono one, then I merely feel bad for you and it's not worth trying to convince you otherwise about what you're missing. I just wanted to jump in and say that I agree:thu: I mean, this is the way we hear because we have two ears...Left and Right...Naturally because this is the way we perceive sound, Stereo will always sound better than Mono... This isn't to say that the other who disagrees with you isn't wrong...I think he's trying to say that when you have someone play a sound, instrument or whatever....It comes from one place, from where the sound is created. I think you're both right in different respects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wildpaws Posted August 3, 2009 Members Share Posted August 3, 2009 I have already said that stereo is great for listening to recordings.But in a live situation if a member of your audience sits next to the right PA speaker he/she will not be able to hear the left half of your wonderful stereo ping pong echo.Why would you not want your audience to hear the entire signal as it should sound, and not just half of it? I said nothing about echo, obviously YOU are hung up on EFFECTS created by an effects unit and most everyone else is talking about SOUNDS created in stereo. I have plenty of sounds that are programmed PRIOR to the effects unit to pan left to right and back to left. Having played in many different sized venues and attended performances in many different size venues I can safely say that my experience disagrees with your assertations, unless you are totally up against the speakers for one side or the other. When speaker arrays are properly set up based on the seating of the venue there is little to no problem with the stereo field in a venue. My goal has always been to have the entire signal heard, I just prefer to do it from a stereo standpoint rather than remaining stuck in the last century with mono setups.Clyde Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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