I'm Getting an i7 DAW Computer (With a New Audio Interface) - Tips & Help Welcome

[TropicThink]

As for processors, if you're really on a budget then you could consider the i5, although it's early days in terms of report about their motherboards etc. The real-world memory performance differences appear surprisingly small too. As someone mentioned, the nice thing is going i7 will allow a 6 core CPU upgrade soon, although 4 cores might well be plenty for your usage.

 

No. Just no. I want an i7. An i7 it shall be!

 

Also, to elaborate on my previous reply to this post, regarding soundcards: Yes, MOTU is out of the question. They're not as good friends with PCs as they are with Macs, and that could been trouble and hassles and stuff. I don't like troubles and hassles and stuff. I want things to be simple, so that I can make music and not spend half my time thinking, and updating stuff and downloading drivers and all that {censored} that can absolutely ruin musical outputs and careers. I don't want to get into all that stuff. Ideally, I'd get a set up that just WORKED and never upgrade. Never get anything new, never install a new driver, never have to deal with all these hassles and all those temptations in the form of "new and 'better' stuff" and GAS and blah blah blah and just spend all my time making music instead... Anyway - and rant is over - for now perhaps I could do with a simple PCI soundcard from M-Audio or something. For now I just need decent soundquality, dependabl stability, ease of use, and very low latency. That's pretty much it. I'll be happy for a good while with that, until I can get a really good soundcard without having to eat noodles three times a day for the remainder of the month.

 

Graphics card: Some good points you've got there. If a 1GB card steals an additional 512 megs from XP, doesn't that mean poorer performance for me? With that in mind I'm inclined to go for a 512 meg graphics card instead. Also, you're right about buying something that's too cheap, so I'll look into how much a decent one costs, and perhaps a Gigabyte one to go with the motherboard.

[P321]

 

I HAVE seen people argue that smaller RAM chips are better than bigger ones. In other words 6x1 GB sticks are better than 3X2. If this is true

It's not. If anything the more ram sticks you add the more everything needs to be "just so" so that the motherboard works fine.

 

 

for now perhaps I could do with a simple PCI soundcard from M-Audio or something.

You can do better, especially in terms of hardware quality. It's kind of like a Behringer thing - Not nearly as bad as people make out, but you can still do better if you spend a bit more. It's just a reasonable option if you're looking to save money. Keep in mind it's one of the few components that will probably outlive the useful life of your system.. (IE 7 years from now there's a decent chance you won't be using the same system, but you might well want to use the same audio card still), so try not to skimp if possible.

 

But wait until you decide which host to use for certain, then look at what cards people are reporting success with and choose based on your I/O needs and your budget. EMU is probably the best budget option, as far as hardware quality goes, but complexity is the enemy of stability and the EMU drivers make me slightly nervous (perhaps unjustifiably) in that regard..

 

 

Graphics card: Some good points you've got there. If a 1GB card steals an additional 512 megs from XP, doesn't that mean poorer performance for me?

Potentially yes, if you can find a way to use more than 3GB under XP. Really 64 bit will make life a lot easier if the plan is to load the ram up with mega huge libraries etc, and that's made me remember another thing against Reaper in that regard - the 64 bit version can't translate 32 bit plugins, meaning you can't use them on the 64 bit Reaper currently (not sure if the 3rd party Jbridge app might offer a workaround).

[evildragon]

 

...and that's made me remember another thing against Reaper in that regard - the 64 bit version can't translate 32 bit plugins, meaning you can't use them on the 64 bit Reaper currently (not sure if the 3rd party Jbridge app might offer a workaround).

 

 

Not true.

 

Reaper has built-in native x64 bridge from version 3.11, and is constantly improved. People on Reaper forums say it's working like a charm. Also, plugin firewalling was introduced along with this, which is awesome for some older VSTs that aren't quite working up to VST specs. Cubase would probably never want to run such plugins. Reaper does and will.

[P321]

Not true.

That's cool.. obviously it wasn't changed that long ago. Doesn't surprise me I guess, given how frequent the Reaper updates are Now if they could only arrange stuff to be a bit more musically obvious, and a bit less like the average fugly Linux app

 

It just doesn't click with my way of thinking, whereas - with apps like Cubase - I've never had to consult the manual to figure out what to do (beyond very specific things). Oh, btw, still haven't found a plugin Cubase didn't want to run..

[TropicThink]

It just doesn't click with my way of thinking, whereas - with apps like Cubase - I've never had to consult the manual to figure out what to do (beyond very specific things).

 

 

Hmmmmmm. That mirrors my thoughts exactly. Shame. I'll sort it out, though, but I AM going to blow a fuse or two upstairs before getting a grip on that thing. That I know.

[evildragon]

Different workflows, I guess. I find Reaper very intuitive, contrary to bloat of Sonar and Cubase.

 

YMMV, or course

[JohnBenussi]

 

Case: Cooler Master Cosmos 1000 Big Tower (comes with power supply) Motherboard: Gigabyte GA-EX58-UD5 Processor: Intel Core i7-920 RAM: 6 BG Corsair Dominator GHX+ DDR3 1600 Mhz CPU cooler: Cooler Master V8 RAM cooler: Corsair Dominator Airflow Fan Hard Drive: Samsung Spinpoint F1 Graphics card: Gainward GeForce 9400GT 1GB PhysX CUDA DVD+RW burner: Sony NEC Optiarc AD-7200S Hard drive fan: Nexus 120 mm Real Silent Fan

 

 

1.) I'd prefer a separate power supply, but make sure it has enough juice,

high amperage and 12v rail ratings that will exceed your total consumed power by 20%. The worst thing to do is skimp out on the PSU.

2.) Excellent choice. It is what I have and just plain works.

3.) Honestly you don't need 1600mhz RAM. Save yourself some money, and buy 12GB of 1066 or 1333 if you must *have* a higher clocked RAM.

CAS latencies are usually high for that RAM (Corsair) so you don't benefit.

4.) That is a good CPU cooler. Check out the TRUE cooler.

It's rated the best non water-cooled cooler. ThermalRight Ultra Extreme.

5.) I run 12GB Mushkin RAM. I don't need an airflow fan for the RAM. $$

6.) If you will be using your DAW for audio recording?

I recommend an ASUS 9600GT fanless silent dual DVI.

Right now they have a $20 MIR, and can be found for $60-$80.

 

Everything else looks good.

I'm not sure if your Cosmos case has noise dampening hardware/materials

but I have a LianLi aluminum case, and while most people don't "believe"

aluminum dissipates heat efficiently, my case does, and the air flow

design minimizes the heat. A push/pull fan design will help suck in cooler air, while getting rid of the hot (air).

 

You definitely need a case like mine, but for added measure invest in some rubber grommets, and noise canceling material,

and line the interior.

 

As far as an OS?

I wholly recommend Vista Business 64bit, (do not buy Ultimate!)

Business is streamlined, and is the best Vista) choice for audio.

 

Cubase 5 64bit runs flawless for me, and I have had zero crashes yet!

If you plan to use your 32bit plug ins in a 64bit environment? DO NOT use Steinbergs crappy Bridge...

 

Buy JBridge, it just works.

 

Harddrive(s):

 

I run 5 internal drives.

One Hitachi Deskstar 7200RPM TB for storage, backups...

Then I have a 300GB VelociRaptor 10,000RPM for the OS, plugins (.dlls) and Cubase 5 64bit.

The other remaning 3 X 300GB VelociRaptors are for my sample libraries...

 

Caveat: SSD's are simply the best for streaming. You can fill them to capacity and you don't take a

performance hit with them, like you do standard Sata II drives.

Filling any other drive other than SSD to 50% onward, your streaming power will be reduced.

**This may not be a problem for you, but I run 50-300GB sample libraries.

 

If you have the money go SSD (as the #1 choice)

If not, you don't need VelociRaptors at all!

The Newer Caviar Blacks 640GB version are good enough.

 

You don't need a RAID setup, either.

 

One last thing: STABLE RAM is better than "faster RAM."

The UD5 automatically downclocks 1600MHZ RAM to 1066.

[JohnBenussi]

Different workflows, I guess. I find Reaper very intuitive, contrary to bloat of Sonar and Cubase. YMMV, or course

Reaper I liked very much, however for VSTi's and how it utilizes multiple cores
I find Cubase 5 64bit superior (sans the current 8core MacPros of course)

[JohnBenussi]

The motherboard you've selected kicks a multitude of ass. One of the nicer things about it is the Texas Instruments FireWire controller. Gigabyte the only company making a LGA1366 motherboard with on-board TI FireWire.

The Intel Extreme boards too have Texas Instruments firewire.
But the board just sucks! I mean sure, it supports 1600mhz RAM natively, but 4 slots? WTF were they thinking???

[evildragon]

 

Reaper I liked very much, however for VSTi's and how it utilizes multiple cores I find Cubase 5 64bit superior (sans the current 8core MacPros of course)

 

 

Interesting. I'm gettin less CPU load from each VST with Reaper than any other DAW on the market! Which tells me that it handles multicores, RAM and VSTs much better than others.

[JohnBenussi]

Interesting. I'm gettin less CPU load from each VST with Reaper than any other DAW on the market! Which tells me that it handles multicores, RAM and VSTs much better than others.

 

 

How heavy is your workload?

At first I loved REAPER! No crashes, it just worked, no bloated software/dongle

to worry about.

 

A sample template (with Omnisphere, Symphobia, EthnoWorld 4, EWQL RA, Orchestra, Choirs, Pianos, Ministry of Rock, Voices of Passion, proved me wrong...I got a really good deal on C5 so I just bought it.

[JohnBenussi]

I still wouldn't want to have my soundcard INSIDE the box. Having a separate outside box is a much better solution, be it Firewire or USB (TropicThink said he doesn't need many channels, in that case - go for an E-MU 0404 USB, also very solid and fast ASIO drivers!).

 

 

This is actually not true bud (when it comes to shear performance)

 

Although I *prefer* a breakout box...

RME (PCI, PCIe) solutions are amongst the BEST you can get!

 

Firewire is ok, but it wasn't designed for audio recording.

USB 2.0 is mediocre (unless it is an RME FireFace USB 2.0)

[evildragon]

Samples work fine with me. Using Kontakt 3 and EW4, some Tonehammer libraries. Everything works just dandy!

 

Also, I've heard much praise about Tascam US-1641. Even better than RME, some say.

[JohnBenussi]

Samples work fine with me. Using Kontakt 3 and EW4, some Tonehammer libraries. Everything works just dandy! Also, I've heard much praise about Tascam US-1641. Even better than RME, some say.

You're trying to tell me this USB 2.0 Tascam, works better than RME?

[evildragon]

That's what tells me my friend from Finland, and he tried them all, RME, Presonus, MOTU, the whole fashizzle His other friends had giant issues with RME as well. None had issues with Presonus, though.

[TropicThink]

This is correct - there is no in-place upgrade path from XP to Windows 7. You'll have to flatten and rebuild. Something else to keep in mind in favor of going directly to Windows 7... Starting with Vista, DAW applications can use the WaveRT mini-port driver which in my (limited) experience, pretty much addresses the latency and configuration issue that you run into with XP (using WAV or ASIO drivers). Check out this Microsoft case study about Cakewalk and how it takes advantage of the WaveRT driver. Cheers!

Good info. I am now CONSIDERING starting with Windows 7 right off the bat. I'll need to know more about how my stuff is going to work with that OS right now, though. Luckily, I don't HAVE a lot of stuff (don't want a lot either, actually), so I might be in luck.

However, I'm retarded with these things. When people like Evil Dragon mention native bridge x64 and firewalling etc I'm not even sure what they're talking aboout. I've obviously got a ton of learning to do. Good thing you guys can share some of what you know. I've learned what seems to me a ton of computer and DAW related stuff over the last few days (too bad I'm still a retard, heh).

[TropicThink]

 

I've got a old Gigabyte 8600 - but it's passively cooled. A cheap graphics card (memory is not of the issue, generally speaking) is going to have a cheap, small fan that'll sound like a vacuum cleaner attempting to take off. All that matters to me is that it has 2 x DVI and has no issues driving 24" monitors. PhysX is for games. CUDA is not interesting for audio (yet).

 

 

Good. What I know about graphics card (except for the passive cooling thing) I've learned on this thread. Someone else also recommended a 2 x DVI, and that's probably something worth having a real hard look at.

[TropicThink]

Hmm, with regards to soundcards.... I DO have an E-mu 0404 PCI sitting in a box here. Are they ok? It's a cheap card, so I don't expect the sound quality to be great (I've actually used it only a tiny bit a while ago), but how about latencies? Wasn't crazy about the latencies I got on another PC, but that PC was old and I had nothing to compare the E-mu with. Anyone know if drivers for Windows 7 are good and if it works well with Reaper (which I still have a hope of making 'mine')? (That's it, I realize I should sign up at the Reaper forums too and ask these questions there...)

 

The reason I'm asking is that if I don't buy a new audio interface this month, I can get a box with tubes in it to take some of the razor blades out of the sound of my Waldorf Q.

[evildragon]

E-MU 0404 PCI is great actually. High signal-to-noise ratio, very good converters, solid drivers and low latency (I've heard it can work well on 128 and 64 samples, that's low!).

 

You should be fine for start with that one.

[TropicThink]

 

E-MU 0404 PCI is great actually. High signal-to-noise ratio, very good converters, solid drivers and low latency (I've heard it can work well on 128 and 64 samples, that's low!). You should be fine for start with that one.

 

 

Nice. I now have pretty clear idea of how much the PC is going to cost me too, so I'm actually going to right ahead and send an email to the guy who's selling an SPL Charisma. I've never heard one or tried one so I don't have much an idea of how it'll work, but a gut feeling tells me it's the right thing for me. Besides, I need some tubey stuff up in this joint anyway.

 

Great news, thanks. I went over to the Reaper forums too, and lo and behold, it was on their working sound cards list.

[uvacom-rotatt]

Good info. I am now CONSIDERING starting with Windows 7 right off the bat. I'll need to know more about how my stuff is going to work with that OS right now, though. Luckily, I don't HAVE a lot of stuff (don't want a lot either, actually), so I might be in luck. However, I'm retarded with these things. When people like Evil Dragon mention native bridge x64 and firewalling etc I'm not even sure what they're talking aboout. I've obviously got a ton of learning to do. Good thing you guys can share some of what you know. I've learned what seems to me a ton of computer and DAW related stuff over the last few days (too bad I'm still a retard, heh).

A few thoughts on the subject:

1. I really don't think you should go with Windows 7 right off the bat. XP pro is a very robust platform for audio and right now everything is designed to work with this platform first. When an application comes up that *needs* windows 7, then you should upgrade.

2. That being the case, I don't think it's wise to get any more than a 4GB kit. If anybody has any real-world DAW benchmarks that show massive improvements with more RAM, my ears are open, but I don't think it's necessary. All of the major sample players offer good disk streaming technology that works fine if you have sufficient hard drive throughput. There just isn't a reason to load giant libraries into RAM. Correct me if I'm wrong.

3. Theoretically the three memory channels the i7 920 offers sound good, but in reality the dual channel i7 860 solution is equal in bandwidth performance except in the rare cases when all 4 cores are saturated. The i7 860 is otherwise faster, costs the same, and uses less power - for a DAW, less power means less heat, which means a quieter PC. You'll notice that a lot more than some bandwidth you'll never use. That might not hold true if all you ever do is massive orchestral scores, maybe. Even then I'm skeptical that the difference would be remarkable.

4. Hard drive performance is crucial for a DAW. I'd go for 2x1TB drives in some raid configuration for your data (whatever you think offers the best performance/space/data security combination). But IMHO the missing link is an SSD like the intel x25-m (g2). For $250, that part will give you more speed, responsiveness, and flexibility than any other part you will likely get.

5. For a graphics card, I'd agree that you shouldn't cheap out on some bottom-of-the-barrel card, but neither should you waste any money on GPU power you won't use. CUDA isn't yet advanced enough to do anything seriously useful that your CPU won't already have enough grunt to handle. So get something inexpensive from ASUS or evga or the like, and if the fan is a little loud, spend a little bit extra on a quiet aftermarket fan. Again, you'll save a lot of power doing this, as an example the ASUS EN9400GT only uses between 15W-35W of power depending on load.

[JohnBenussi]

 

5. For a graphics card, I'd agree that you shouldn't cheap out on some bottom-of-the-barrel card, but neither should you waste any money on GPU power you won't use.

 

I think the main point to take away from GPU's is first knowing how heavy or how light the drivers are. My ATi 4870 X2 interfered with my audio.

Replacing it with a Fanless ASUS 9600GT dual DVI fixed this issue.

[uvacom-rotatt]

I think "wise" is an incorrect word to describe what one needs or wants when it comes to RAM. RAM, you can never have too much RAM, more RAM means better efficiency. Running large libraries (like I do) -I need RAM. If RAM wasn't a high priority or requisite for VSTi's then tell me why professional DAW builders are in business, and stay in business? Further, I don't think professional composers could cut it with just 4GB of RAM, without bouncing the crap out of each track, which would basically render them out of a job, since the name of the game is deadline, can I meet it, and 2, can I get the job done myself? You may not think it is necessary, then again perhaps your workload is not dense, nor do your templates exceed 100 instruments, and say 10 or more instances of a VSTi.

 

 

My point is that in my opinion XP Pro is still the OS of choice for windows audio, thus more than 4GB is truly a waste. That aside, those large sound libraries still stream from the hard drives. Maybe you have some benchmarks that show a real-world situation that starts to choke with 4GB?

 

 

 

If your workload doesn't go beyond utilizing all cores then this entire discussion can be moot for the people that actually are able to max out an i7, or Dual Quad Xeon. No *one* system is powerful enough, remember that. I guarantee you that less heat does not mean a more quieter PC. I once owned a 4870 X2, and the difference in sound is minimal to non-existent. Once cas latencies dip even further, tri channel RAM will be the RAM to buy, and since the pricing is very similar, why not buy DDR3?

 

 

Maxing out your total CPU utilization is not the same as saturating the throughput on all 4 cores, and I still contend that most applications are not thread-optimized to consistently do this.

 

I also don't think you understand that almost all computer noise comes from cooling. Cooling is necessary because of heat. Heat is the direct result of power consumption. The power you use, the less heat you generate, the less cooling is necessary. That doesn't mean that your CPU/GPU's cooling system will be optimal in terms of noise performance if you just leave the stock HSF on them, but if you build a DAW yourself you have a lot of latitude in controlling this.

 

 

Again, there are many people who DO massive scoring, and need all the RAM they can get. When it comes to audio it doesn't matter what RAM you use. As long as the memory is stable/reliable, the software sees the memory, and uses it. An imperceptible difference of say 2-3% isn't worth a higher cost. (to me)

 

 

I don't think that's completely true, either. I agree that the crazy expensive gaming/overclocking RAM makes much sense for pro audio, but it's still an application that is taxing on the memory subarchitecture since audio constantly needs to be moved back and forth between the CPU, RAM and the FSB so FSB clocks and latencies still mean something. I'd be very surprised if there is only a 2-3% margin between the bargain basement RAM and the top-shelf stuff.

 

I'm sure there are a handful of world-class scoring musicians who can really put a DAW through its paces to the point where more than 4GB of RAM might come in handy, and I do realize that TropicThink expressed an interest in using some of the large libraries - but he's also considering REAPER, which suggests to me that he probably hasn't managed too many of the massive projects on the scale you're describing. DAWs with much less than 4GB of RAM have been able to handle huge multi-GB libraries for literally years now.

 

 

I think the main point to take away from GPU's is first knowing how heavy or how light the drivers are. My ATi 4870 X2 interfered with my audio. Replacing it with a Fanless ASUS 9600GT dual DVI fixed this issue.

 

 

Both nividia and AMD have a unified driver platform. You're effectively running the same driver no matter if you're running a 9400GT or a 295GTX. I'd have to know more about your configuration to understand why the 4870 X2 interfered with your audio, but it doesn't surprise me in the least. If there's a device conflict, a device like that will probably win out.

[zzzxtreme]

many appllications cannot take 'much advantage with multicore processors, but microsoft has 'modified and improve' win7 core to make use of it. does it mean ANY programs running on win7 will automatically make use of multicore processing?

what if i have 16GB RAM, and i "installed" a large sample library in virtual drive in ram (RAMDISK), and it streams from the virtual disk in RAM. Significant speed improvement? You bet. but is 16GB enough ?

[midi]

So far with the ASRock X58 Extreme motherboard, Intel I7 920 processor, 6gb Crucial ram & MSI 275GTX video card, it's up to $790USD.

I already have the case, PSU, and hard drives...