Members Echoes Posted August 14, 2006 Members Share Posted August 14, 2006 Originally posted by CliffC8488 The biggest problem with the ID argument, (and any arguments involving deities, supreme beings, "designers", etc.) is they fall into a catch-22. OK, so who designed the designer?CC if this transcends your understanding...welcome aboard! God is bigger than we can measure and He is not subject to scrutiny by a 'scientific method' ...you are using the WRONG MEASURING DEVICE HERE! God says: I AM!...He doesn't feel it is necessary to 'explain' His existence to anyone...as a matter of fact He says we don't have any realistic/rational/logical option other than to accept that He is Who He says He Is!..."The fear of the Lord is the BEGINNING of wisdom" the simple acknowledgement that He is! is the very first baby step!... it is those that DO NOT take these steps that are the 'fools' (er, scientists included) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Echoes Posted August 14, 2006 Members Share Posted August 14, 2006 Originally posted by blargh Now you've just degenerated to nonsensical rambling... im out of here. night-night I'm going to bed too! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members yabba Posted August 14, 2006 Members Share Posted August 14, 2006 of course Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Loghead Posted August 14, 2006 Members Share Posted August 14, 2006 Originally posted by Echoes if this transcends your understanding...welcome aboard!God is bigger than we can measure and He is not subject to scrutiny by a 'scientific method' ...you are using the WRONG MEASURING DEVICE HERE!God says: I AM!...He doesn't feel it is necessary to 'explain' His existence to anyone...as a matter of fact He says we don't have any realistic/rational/logical option other than to accept that He is Who He says He Is!..."The fear of the Lord is the BEGINNING of wisdom"the simple acknowledgement that He is! is the very first baby step!...it is those that DO NOT take these steps that are the 'fools' (er, scientists included) At least you're admitting that whatever this is it isn't science. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Echoes Posted August 14, 2006 Members Share Posted August 14, 2006 Originally posted by Loghead This explains why I like soup, especially chowder. you are 'LogHead' NOT 'ChowderHead'.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dughaze Posted August 14, 2006 Members Share Posted August 14, 2006 Originally posted by CliffC8488 The biggest problem with the ID argument, (and any arguments involving deities, supreme beings, "designers", etc.) is they fall into a catch-22. OK, so who designed the designer?CC How about the other side? Where'd the first living cell come from? From a rock? Where'd the first rock come from? Where did the first atom come from that evolved into the rock that evolved into a living cell? I know, there are answers for all of those but I think they are BS. Man fills in the blanks where he has to because that's what he does...he adapts. I will never forget Carl Sagan's explanation of evolution and how many times he explained another evolving step with a "and then perhaps" phrased explanation. I've got major problems with both theories honestly but I find the supreme being theory and those that believe it to be way more fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Echoes Posted August 14, 2006 Members Share Posted August 14, 2006 Originally posted by Loghead At least you're admitting that whatever this is it isn't science. Oh, no! look it up...the origins of modern 'science' comes from Christianity!it is this very 'science' that points absolutely to our Creator!...it takes MUCH MORE 'FAITH" to believe in Darwin's Evolution or even modern evolution (adjusted for Darwin's 'mistakes')... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Nutter Posted August 14, 2006 Members Share Posted August 14, 2006 Originally posted by MonikerLewinsky So they would be "dumbed down" versions of the originals. Now if this is true (which it is- and provable) how does it help or hurt evolutionary theoryIt seems to me that the population as a whole of whatever species will lose genetic material over time, but where would it ever gain genetic material necessary to evolve into higher, more complex life forms? The situation you gave me involved one species with absolutely no interbreeding in very well controlled situations. Genetic material is only gained with interbreeding (or viruses, but that's another story). Genetic information is rarely completely lost (like it is for example, in cancer). It's like deleting all your porn on your computer, but PC forensics can show it's still there just covered up but not used. Many dormant genes (and even more "junk DNA" that we don't know the function of) exist. In reality, evolution is very complex and involves massive ecosystems. If you killed off many species that inhabit a particular niche environment, it will be filled with many new species. The fossil record strongly supports this "niche filling" as massive numbers of new species are seen after a huge environmental disaster like an ice age or the great extinction 65 million years ago, rather than gradual evolution. Species tend to live for about 4 million years (average) and then there are a whole lot of new ones after a big world event. On another point, I think it's absurd that people think we just are. No change, ever. Time does not exist, we are a static photograph. All living things always looked the same as they are now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 496dart Posted August 14, 2006 Members Share Posted August 14, 2006 We are definately "designed" . Look at the human body and how it heals itself. Look at the brain itself..The thing is, "God" is the Aliens . We were designed by them . Thousands of years ago humans didnt know what these beings were that came from "the heavens", they called them "god or gods"The true "bible" is a book called "Chariots of the gods" . Look it up . It answers all your questions - mostly with PHYSICAL EVIDENCE.Im not going to even look at the incorrect replies to my post so keep your heads buried in the sand Sheeple ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members voodoopower Posted August 14, 2006 Author Members Share Posted August 14, 2006 Well this thread went off on a tangent. I find the results interesting though. On another much larger forum the results of this exact poll were more like 3000 votes rougly 93% voted YES 7% voted NO I would think it is safe to say gutarists are an interesting lot. I will make no conclusions but I was the first to vote a Yes in this threads poll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members potaetoes Posted August 14, 2006 Members Share Posted August 14, 2006 i'd like to see a proponent of intelligent design explain things like the human appendix. evolution theory can explain both why it's there, and why it will always be there and never evolve away, despite it being little more than a potentially lethal body part with no substantial purpose. so, ID folks... why do people have an appendix? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MonikerLewinsky Posted August 14, 2006 Members Share Posted August 14, 2006 Originally posted by Nutter The situation you gave me involved one species with absolutely no interbreeding in very well controlled situations. Genetic material is only gained with interbreeding (or viruses, but that's another story). Where did the very first cell(s) get the genetic material to make slightly more and more complex organisms? What did they interbreed with? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TitusAndronicus Posted August 14, 2006 Members Share Posted August 14, 2006 man, i love thinking about this kind of stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MonikerLewinsky Posted August 14, 2006 Members Share Posted August 14, 2006 Originally posted by potaetoes i'd like to see a proponent of intelligent design explain things like the human appendix. evolution theory can explain both why it's there, and why it will always be there and never evolve away, despite it being little more than a potentially lethal body part with no substantial purpose. so, ID folks... why do people have an appendix? Because we dont understand it means it has no use?BTW- It has a use. IT stores some type of useful bacteria or enzyme or something like that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Nutter Posted August 14, 2006 Members Share Posted August 14, 2006 Originally posted by MonikerLewinsky Where did the very first cell(s) get the genetic material to make slightly more and more complex organisms? What did they interbreed with? I don't think it started with one cell. Cells would have originated in their billions. All they are essentially are nucleic acids encased in a lipid micelle. If you boil water, you get formation of millions of bubbles, not just one. So genetic diversity is not an issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MonikerLewinsky Posted August 14, 2006 Members Share Posted August 14, 2006 Originally posted by Nutter I don't think it started with one cell. Cells would have originated in their billions. All they are essentially are nucleic acids encased in a lipid micelle. If you boil water, you get formation of millions of bubbles, not just one. So genetic diversity is not an issue. Cells formed in the billions? Why can we see even one example of this happening today? Also, as a side note, a cell is so incredibly complex, how does a billion of them just form? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members potaetoes Posted August 14, 2006 Members Share Posted August 14, 2006 Originally posted by MonikerLewinsky Because we dont understand it means it has no use? BTW- It has a use. IT stores some type of useful bacteria or enzyme or something like that. i said no substantial purpose. the fact that we can live perfectly normally without it is evidence of that. its usefulness is far outweighed by the lethal threat it poses.by the way, evolution theory can also explain why it came to pose such a threat, and why it's unimportant as an organ. the appendix is actually quite well understood by science. it's not a mystery at all. anyway, do you have any ID explanations for it, or are you just going to dodge it? it's ok if you just don't know of any, just say so. i'm simply asking. if anyone else has an ID explanation for it, i'd like to hear it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Nutter Posted August 14, 2006 Members Share Posted August 14, 2006 Originally posted by potaetoes i'd like to see a proponent of intelligent design explain things like the human appendix. The appendix may have some vestigial function that's not yet discovered, but it's not even required to live normally. There are plenty of 'design' flaws in the human body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blargh Posted August 14, 2006 Members Share Posted August 14, 2006 If anyone can explain away my nipples in terms of ID, I'd like to hear that too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Nutter Posted August 14, 2006 Members Share Posted August 14, 2006 Originally posted by MonikerLewinsky Cells formed in the billions? Why can we see even one example of this happening today? Also, as a side note, a cell is so incredibly complex, how does a billion of them just form? Ah glad you asked. Today, we don't have the conditions that were present back then. Namely huge pressures, lots of methane and other gasses in the atmosphere and killer temperature extremes. It was a large cauldron of probiotic soup. All it would take to form a cell is for a lipid micelle (oils form micelles naturally in water) to encase nucleic acids and some amino acids. There's your very primitive cell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MonikerLewinsky Posted August 14, 2006 Members Share Posted August 14, 2006 Originally posted by potaetoes i said no substantial purpose. the fact that we can live perfectly normally without it is evidence of that. its usefulness is far outweighed by the lethal threat it poses. by the way, evolution theory can also explain why it came to pose such a threat, and why it's unimportant as an organ. the appendix is actually quite well understood by science. it's not a mystery at all. anyway, do you have any ID explanations for it, or are you just going to dodge it? it's ok if you just don't know of any, just say so. i'm simply asking. if anyone else has an ID explanation for it, i'd like to hear it. We can live without a gall bladder, we can live with 1 kidney, half a lung, half our stomach, we can live without either leg or arms, dont need eyes or ears, we dont need fingers to live etc. etc. No the appendix isnt a mystery, its a reservoir. You dont have to believe me if you dont want though. Its ok if you want to pretend like you dont hear me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members potaetoes Posted August 14, 2006 Members Share Posted August 14, 2006 Originally posted by Nutter The appendix may have some vestigial function that's not yet discovered, but it's not even required to live normally. There are plenty of 'design' flaws in the human body. the appendix's former function is pretty well understood. it's not a "design flaw" - just an artifact of the evolutionary process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MonikerLewinsky Posted August 14, 2006 Members Share Posted August 14, 2006 Originally posted by Nutter The appendix may have some vestigial function that's not yet discovered, but it's not even required to live normally. There are plenty of 'design' flaws in the human body. Because if we dont understand it, it's a flaw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MonikerLewinsky Posted August 14, 2006 Members Share Posted August 14, 2006 Originally posted by blargh If anyone can explain away my nipples in terms of ID, I'd like to hear that too Do you like girls licking them? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MonikerLewinsky Posted August 14, 2006 Members Share Posted August 14, 2006 Originally posted by Nutter Ah glad you asked. Today, we don't have the conditions that were present back then. Namely huge pressures, lots of methane and other gasses in the atmosphere and killer temperature extremes. It was a large cauldron of probiotic soup. All it would take to form a cell is for a lipid micelle (oils form micelles naturally in water) to encase nucleic acids and some amino acids. There's your very primitive cell. ...and there's no way to reproduce these condtions we assume existed in a lab enviroment either.An amino acid is lightyears away from a cell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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