Members Crazyfoo Posted April 4, 2011 Members Share Posted April 4, 2011 You guys are forgetting the Ensoniq ESQ-1, that badboy can be had for around $200. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tremens Posted April 4, 2011 Members Share Posted April 4, 2011 Originally Posted by ShaneV2 Haven't tried the XF, and couldn't afford it right now anyway, but I'd have to assume it's better still. I'd go in that direction. funny thing is XS is probably better then XF because although both have the same sound engine XS can add up to 2GB RAM memory wheres in XF only 128MB.XF has flash memory instead. Sound wise they are the same. It's like with cars recently - newer models often are worse in build quality and features. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SpicedCider Posted April 5, 2011 Author Members Share Posted April 5, 2011 Speaking of brains, I also plan to beef-up my knowledge of composing and purchase a good jazz composition book. My favorite film/videogame composers (as well as others like Lyle Mays) seem to compose music that is influenced heavily by jazz (even if it's just throwing in a min. 9th chord, etc.), and I really just love the overall sound of music like that. The only problem is that I really don't know what those composers are playing in terms of the keys their hands are pressing on the piano (there are lots of moments of, "Wow, that sounded great, what did he just play?!"), so I really want to expand my knowledge in that regard. tagpass, thanks for the advice. Do you know if it's possible to to sync what I'm playing on a hardware keyboard to a film/videogame playing in real-time? Would I just connect the keyboard via USB to my PC and basically play music through the same program that the movie/game is playing on? Also, speaking of the OASYS -- out of curiosity, would you say that the sounds on the OASYS are better than those on the PC361? And one other random question -- would you happen to have any idea of how I would go about attempting to gain paid composing jobs (whether for movies or games)? I figured you might be a good person to ask since you sound like you are pretty well-established as a professional composer. :-) Should I just e-mail videogame developers and (independent) movie studios a link to my demo with some brief information about myself, or is there an agency that is willing to represent "no-names?" I recall that back in my highschool days there was a videogame music agency by the name of Four Bars Intertainment, and it appears they're still around -- although I would presume that gaining representation by them is an incredibly competitive endeavor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tagpass Posted April 5, 2011 Members Share Posted April 5, 2011 Originally Posted by SpicedCider Speaking of brains, I also plan to beef-up my knowledge of composing and purchase a good jazz composition book. My favorite film/videogame composers (as well as others like Lyle Mays) seem to compose music that is influenced heavily by jazz (even if it's just throwing in a min. 9th chord, etc.), and I really just love the overall sound of music like that. The only problem is that I really don't know what those composers are playing in terms of the keys their hands are pressing on the piano (there are lots of moments of, "Wow, that sounded great, what did he just play?!"), so I really want to expand my knowledge in that regard. tagpass, thanks for the advice. Do you know if it's possible to to sync what I'm playing on a hardware keyboard to a film/videogame playing in real-time? Would I just connect the keyboard via USB to my PC and basically play music through the same program that the movie/game is playing on? Also, speaking of the OASYS -- out of curiosity, would you say that the sounds on the OASYS are better than those on the PC361?And one other random question -- would you happen to have any idea of how I would go about attempting to gain paid composing jobs (whether for movies or games)? I figured you might be a good person to ask since you sound like you are pretty well-established as a professional composer. :-) Should I just e-mail videogame developers and (independent) movie studios a link to my demo with some brief information about myself, or is there an agency that is willing to represent "no-names?" I recall that back in my highschool days there was a videogame music agency by the name of Four Bars Intertainment, and it appears they're still around -- although I would presume that gaining representation by them is an incredibly competitive endeavor. Re: sync. It depends on how you wanted to do it. I always did my arranging in SONAR (or now, Logic) with MIDI and audio all in the same program as the movie file. In theory, you could also do this by composing on your workstation and recording the audio in a 2-track (or multitrack) audio editor that supports video playback (like Vegas or Audition or Soundtrack Pro). I would imagine that getting the timing exact would be more difficult though without being able to put together a MIDI tempo track or something to keep things aligned. That's why I think for this type of job, you WILL eventually need to have a DAW handy!Re: Oasys vs. PC361. I've had no direct experience with Kurzweil, other than (unrealistically) wanting a K250 back in the day, so I can't say. Many speak very highly of the Kurz sound character for pianos and strings. I can speak highly of the sound quality from the Oasys -- it's very, very, good. If I'm doing orchestral stuff, however, I'm launching a project template loaded with VSL and Symphobia and Evolve first though.Re: Paid composer jobs. I was just thinking about this this morning as I'm negotiating a couple of upcoming jobs. Creative work is often times significantly undervalued by your potential clients, as evidenced by the solicitations I get several times a year to do soundtrack work for "screen credit". Nice, but last I checked, screen credit won't feed the kids! In my case, luck played a major role in my "career development" -- I knew someone who had a web animation start-up in the early days of Flash animation, and our reputation led us to bigger and better projects, culminating in TV and film production. After the company dissolved, many of the animators spread out into other venues and we kept in contact. Strangely enough, media production is a somewhat small and incestuous industry, so I've encountered the same cast of characters throughout the course of several contract jobs, so building a good reputation is key. Either way, yes, I would recommend contacting as many developers or filmmakers as possible. I didn't always get jobs, but I did solicit a lot of good information from people I knew of or had only cursory contact with, or was a fan of their work. If I read an interesting article in Keyboard magazine about a television composer, I'd contact them with a general inquiry about their experience(s). If I was struck by a particular videogame soundtrack, I would find out the composer and shoot them an email. (By the way, I highly recommend checking out Christophe Heral's work on the Beyond Good and Evil soundtrack -- my pick for the best, most diverse videogame music of all time -- and Leon Willett's score for Dreamfall.)For starting out in film work, my best recommendation is to start attending regional film festivals, and trying to meet up with filmmakers in person. Many of these guys WILL give you the "screen credit" song-and-dance, but sometimes they have small budgets for music and will be looking for original work. If you can manage it, get out to Park City during Sundance. Granted, the Sundance festival itself is more commercial-oriented and less independent these days, but the city also hosts a ton of off-Sundance festivals that run concurrently, and the entire city is either crawling with independent film guys or people looking to get a foot in the door. The person-to-person networking makes a huge difference over cold e-mailing someone. And if you're less of a face-to-face people person, all the side festivals there have tables and tables filled with pamphlets, cards, and contact information for pretty much every independent filmmaker you could imagine, even ones whose work is NOT showing there.Hope this is helpful! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gribs Posted April 5, 2011 Members Share Posted April 5, 2011 Wow there is some very interesting insight into composing for film and media. Creative work in the form of new R&D, product development, and patents is undervalued in the corporate world of manufacturing and selling products too. CEOs and executives tell you that raises will come when the economy turns around and the company is doing well and then when that happens they get fat 40% pay raises and those doing the creative work in the trenches get, quite literally, 0% (or negative if you include the annual increase in out-of-pocket expenses for health insurance). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mediterranean Posted April 5, 2011 Members Share Posted April 5, 2011 Originally Posted by zoink I don't know if they fixed this on the Motif XS, but the solo orchestral sounds (strings, woodwinds, brass) of the ES and original Motifs have this awful, fake sounding vibrato that kicks in after about 1 second of sustain, making them all but useless. And you can't change it, since the vibrato is present AT THE WAVEFORM LEVEL. In other words, it's not a timed modulation setting in the patches. It's embedded in the raw waveforms. A terrible oversight. Please don't tell me that applies to the XF because I've never heard a better-sounding hardware synth and I'm quickly falling in love with it, and if it really suffers from that problem [huge huge fail if it's the case], then my SY77, which is 1000 years older, still kicks ass when it comes to expressiveness of acoustic instruments: modulation wheels, after-touch, you name it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mike Conway Posted April 5, 2011 Members Share Posted April 5, 2011 As for Korg Kronos sounds, check out my Orchestra Demo Thread Originally Posted by SpicedCider Thanks for the advice, guys! To be honest, I'm kind of surprised that nobody has said, "You have a Fantom-S, so just stick with that," LOL. I've heard some great things about the Orchestral SRX expansion. Have you tried it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Caligvla Posted April 5, 2011 Members Share Posted April 5, 2011 I still love my fully expanded Fantom X7 (Complete Orchestra, Vintage Keys, Supreme Dance, Studio SRX) ... There isn't any sound or mood or beat I can't create with that thing ... When it comes to a workstation, it's all about making the mix fit ... Kronos may win me over when it gets into stores ... but getting a new workstation would be more of a luxury than a necessity ... Yes, complete orchestra is a classic ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Meatball Fulton Posted April 5, 2011 Members Share Posted April 5, 2011 Originally Posted by Crazyfoo You guys are forgetting the Ensoniq ESQ-1, that badboy can be had for around $200. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SpicedCider Posted April 5, 2011 Author Members Share Posted April 5, 2011 Thanks for the valuable advice, tagpass. I actually have the Complete Orchestra SRX board for the Fantom-S. But besides being generally outdated, the main issue with the keyboard is technical (the two problems I mentioned above regarding USB and amp/headphone jack). I really would prefer to just sell the keyboard and the SRX boards and use the money I get in return to purchase a PC361 (I realize there will still be a "balance" to pay), which seems to be the best option for me. Additionally and per tagpass's advice, I will likely purchase a computer program that will at least allow me to sync up what I'm playing on the keyboard to a game/movie and record in real-time. BTW, can anyone offer any advice in regards to the pros and cons of buying a "B-stock" keyboard? I perused eBay briefly and noted a number of PC361 (again, still open to considering other boards) boards for sale in the $1200 - $1300 range, but they were all refurbished B-stock boards. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tremens Posted April 5, 2011 Members Share Posted April 5, 2011 Originally Posted by SpicedCider BTW, can anyone offer any advice in regards to the pros and cons of buying a "B-stock" keyboard? I perused eBay briefly and noted a number of PC361 (again, still open to considering other boards) boards for sale in the $1200 - $1300 range, but they were all refurbished B-stock boards. B-stock is very good, especially B-3... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Randyman Posted April 5, 2011 Members Share Posted April 5, 2011 This is just me, but after 2 years of owning the Motif XS, I was glad to sell it. Compared to my Nord Stage and Korg M3, it didn't feel as "expressive". I also HATED the user interface and the many pain-in-the-ass workarounds once you get below the easy to use surface. Pissed me off putting that much effort into it and being ultimately frustrated in what I was trying to do. I'm surprised, for someone looking to get into film composing, that Kronos is not a foregone conclusion. - Easier user interface, bigger screen than XS/XF/PC3, all three of which are known to be convoluted - Actual audio tracks (and not just in track sampling) - Actual sound engines: with the 9 engines onboard the Kronos, a great deal of your sound generation is from an engine, not just rompler playback tech; granted the PC3 does have an organ clone and a VA engine, but I've never heard of either those as being as top rated as what the Oayses offered (the megasynth the Kronos is based on) - Unbeatable pianos, eps, organs, va's (compared to the other workstations being considered) - Karos has a fully developed Orchestral expansion that's available for the Kronos The only advantages that comes to mind for the other boards: - the PC3 is known for great sounding strings/orchestral - the XS can load up to 2 GB of samples (you'll pay an extra $600 for the privelege on the XF) - the PC3 has been discounted for awhile now, so it's the most cost-effective - the XS/XF have tight integration with Cubase, which is included For something as serious/demanding as what you want to do, having a combo of hardware and software would be killer. My ideal set-up for this type of composing: 1. Start with Kronos, learn it how to use it (this can take awhile, like any workstation on the market). Get a basic workflow and sequencing happening, and then 2. Optimize a computer (or better yet, buy one pre-optimized) and fill out the sounds that the Kronos doesn't have and do larger scale sequencing of the work you started in the Kronos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mildbill Posted April 6, 2011 Members Share Posted April 6, 2011 Originally Posted by SpicedCider .... I really would prefer to just sell the keyboard and the SRX boards and use the money I get in return to purchase a PC361 (I realize there will still be a "balance" to pay), which seems to be the best option for me. Additionally and per tagpass's advice, I will likely purchase a computer program that will at least allow me to sync up what I'm playing on the keyboard to a game/movie and record in real-time... That's probably your best bet. The PC3 makes an excellent controller, and you can expand your sound palette in the future with a computer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SpicedCider Posted April 6, 2011 Author Members Share Posted April 6, 2011 Randyman, I will readily admit that the Kronos does sound like the perfect keyboard. However, $3,000 is a good bit more than I really wanted to spend. I also would prefer to buy something sooner than June, which is the expected ship date for the Kronos. If everything goes as planned, I will be starting graduate school (not for a musical discipline) this June and much of my time will be consumed by classes and studying (it's a health care program), so I would prefer to be able to delve into whatever keyboard I buy and become well-versed with its sequencer and other features by the time school starts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tremens Posted April 6, 2011 Members Share Posted April 6, 2011 Originally Posted by Randyman This is just me, but after 2 years of owning the Motif XS, I was glad to sell it. Compared to my Nord Stage and Korg M3, it didn't feel as "expressive". I also HATED the user interface and the many pain-in-the-ass workarounds once you get below the easy to use surface. Pissed me off putting that much effort into it and being ultimately frustrated in what I was trying to do. I give you that motif XS/XF user interface regardless of new color screen is still confusing and it's hard to follow any logic there.Work flow is not intuitive at all. Sound wise though I don't see any contenders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Citizen Klaus Posted April 6, 2011 Members Share Posted April 6, 2011 Originally Posted by SpicedCider Randyman, I will readily admit that the Kronos does sound like the perfect keyboard. However, $3,000 is a good bit more than I really wanted to spend. I also would prefer to buy something sooner than June, which is the expected ship date for the Kronos. If everything goes as planned, I will be starting graduate school (not for a musical discipline) this June and much of my time will be consumed by classes and studying (it's a health care program), so I would prefer to be able to delve into whatever keyboard I buy and become well-versed with its sequencer and other features by the time school starts. A second opinion from someone who's just finishing a graduate program: don't underestimate the importance of having a hobby or interest outside your studies. It'll keep you grounded, even when things go all upside-down and you get so stressed out that it feels like your heart is just going to stop beating any minute. I bought my M3 just before getting started, and I consider it money well spent.Have I been able to devote as much time to the instrument as I'd like? Of course not. However, having an easy-to-use platform to play and experiment with has been a massive source of stress relief. When things get crazy, I boot up the M3, switch to a RADIAS bank, pick one of the rich, long-release sounds I've created, and noodle around. Works every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SpicedCider Posted April 7, 2011 Author Members Share Posted April 7, 2011 Oh, I definitely know what you mean about the stress-reduction benefits of playing music. I really hope I can get a keyboard before school (tentatively) starts in June. I just wish I could have time over the next couple of years to actually "work" as a composer, although the more composers' websites I see (who happen to compose really good music) who can't get anything above "screen credit" work, the more I realize how unbelievably competitive the field is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members videorov Posted October 30, 2012 Members Share Posted October 30, 2012 Is it possible to do all the things a Kronos can do from just using software and a controller 88K the best you can buy and computer and will it do it just as fast with the changes and all the layering and making samples sounds etc. Is this just a dream. I have not seen a system that people are using to do all these things. I would like to see pictures of these systems? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chevybusa Posted October 30, 2012 Members Share Posted October 30, 2012 Originally Posted by SpicedCider Hey guys. I have played piano since high school (am now 23) and was considering purchasing a keyboard to start composing my own music with. I would really like to compose film and videogame music, but I realize that the likelihood of achieving financial success composing ANY style of music is slim. Selecting from among the flagship keyboards (Korg M3, Roland Fantom-G, Kurzweil PC361, or Yamaha Motif XS) from the major equipment manufacturers, which workstation would you recommend for someone who is looking to compose in a diverse variety of musical genres? I have read several reviews of the Kurzweil PC361 which stated that its sounds were the most realistic of all the hardware keyboards. However, do you guys tend to agree or disagree with this assertion? Also, how would you assess its sequencer in terms of user-friendliness and severity of learning curve? Also, I actually do have a Roland Fantom-S that I obtained in 2004. But when I "got out" of music for a while, the keyboard essentially remained in storage (indoor, thankfully) for a number of years. However, before I decided to stop composing for a while, I noticed that the keyboard often wouldn't connect via USB to my computer; essentially, sometimes the connection would appear on my computer and most of the time it wouldn't. Additionally, whenever I would play it, the sound would often "go out" in one ear of my headphones/speakers. I'm not sure what actually happened to spur these two malfunctions. But that leads me to ask another question: are the sounds (in terms of realism) and technological capabilities of "modern" keyboards substantially improved enough to justify the purchase of a new workstation keyboard? I just figured that with the Fantom-S being based on such antiquated technology, I might as well buy a more recently-released model of whatever keyboard I end up choosing. Of course, I'll likely look into selling the Fantom-S and the SRX boards I have to help offset the cost of the new 'board. I will hopefully be starting graduate school this summer, and my plan is to actually transfer the remainder of the cost to my student loan balance (or just pay for the keyboard with money disbursed for "living expenses"). Wow, that post ended up being a lot longer than I had originally intended for it to be. If there's anyone still reading who wasn't put to sleep by the last few paragraphs, I would appreciate any advice and suggestions you'd be willing to offer! I'd have to say that at this point, I'm considering the PC361, but my preference is definitely still subject to swaying. Hey dude. Well, of course everyone is gonna have a different opinion on this, but since you're looking to compose in a VARIETY of different genres, I'd go for the new KORG Krome or Kronos or even M3 or OASYS...or hell even the Triton EXTREME or LE!!! LOL...having had experience with all the newer units of the big 4, in my personal opinion KORG is the most versatile and user friendly...sure, Kurz may have better "real" instrument sounds, Yamaha may have better overall sound quality, and you're already familiar with Roland, but in my opinion the dual polyphonic arpeggiators and combis on the new KORG boards make up for all that, and like I said even though it's not as good in some areas as the others, I really think it has the whole VARIETY aspect covered much better, as it has much more electronic and hip hop oriented stuff than the other 3, and about the same amount of "real" instruments, even though they may not be as good as the others, no non-musos are gonna know...but again that's just my opinion...Also, does it have to be a hardware workstation? You might want to think about getting a controller to use with Reason and/or Logic Pro 9, and pick up something like Komplete 8 Ultimate...that way you can do everything in the box AND get some mastering plugs so you can compose and record your music and mix and master it as well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Citizen Klaus Posted October 30, 2012 Members Share Posted October 30, 2012 Originally Posted by chevybusa Hey dude. Well, of course everyone is gonna have a different opinion on this, but since you're looking to compose in a VARIETY of different genres, I'd go for the new KORG Krome or Kronos or even M3 or OASYS... Before you get too excited about offering advice, you might want to check that date stamp. videorov necromanced an ~18-month-old thread. When OP posted his question, the Kronos hadn't yet hit stores -- to say nothing of the Krome. OP probably solved his workstation issues long ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cresshead Posted October 30, 2012 Members Share Posted October 30, 2012 integra7, a controller keyboard and an imac with logic pro! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cresshead Posted October 30, 2012 Members Share Posted October 30, 2012 integra7, a controller keyboard and an imac with logic pro! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SpaceNorman Posted October 31, 2012 Members Share Posted October 31, 2012 I tend to draw a distinction between "composing" and "producing". To me, "composing" is all about the act of creating the various parts ... where "producing" is focused on taking those various parts and using the technology to make them sound the best possible. With that differentiation in mind - the "best" keyboard for composing is the one with the user interface that allows me to create and capture parts as fluidily as possible. For me, that's my Kronos. I've never played with any user interface that felt as intuitive as what the Kronos offers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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