Members IBBIAZ Posted January 30, 2007 Members Share Posted January 30, 2007 I've owned a Shure SM57 for a bit of time, and recently bought a Sennheiser 421. I plan on recording with these dual miked, but I don't really know how to get good sounds out of it.I've never dual miked before, and really know nothing about it. I've heard good things about dual miking the 57 and the 421 together, which I lucked out with, but don't really know how to do anything with them. Do any of you have any advice on what I should be looking for when recording with these or how to dual mic in general? I really don't know much about it, so ANYTHING could probably be of use to me. Thanks, guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Wolfeman28 Posted January 30, 2007 Members Share Posted January 30, 2007 Tons of different things you can do, but all you really need to do is place them till they sound good!... Only thing you have to watch out for with 2 mics is phase problems, which is easy to deal with(just a slight movement on a mic will fix it) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Herald of Light Posted January 30, 2007 Members Share Posted January 30, 2007 There's not really anything anyone can tell you. Like with one mic, it's all about mic positioning. Except now, you have to work with two at once, and it's how they go together that matters. Just be sure they're in phase. If you're close micing, they should be, but always be careful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Wolfeman28 Posted January 30, 2007 Members Share Posted January 30, 2007 There's not really anything anyone can tell you. Like with one mic, it's all about mic positioning. Except now, you have to work with two at once, and it's how they go together that matters.Just be sure they're in phase. If you're close micing, they should be, but always be careful. You are too slow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Herald of Light Posted January 30, 2007 Members Share Posted January 30, 2007 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members IBBIAZ Posted January 30, 2007 Author Members Share Posted January 30, 2007 Well, positioning wouldn't be as tough if I knew some good places to start or anything. How should things be sounding together? Is there a general rule of thumb for starting positions or how moving mics in which directions will afect the tone? I just want to try to know what I'm doing before I get at it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Joshtruction Posted January 30, 2007 Members Share Posted January 30, 2007 Well, positioning wouldn't be as tough if I knew some good places to start or anything. How should things be sounding together? Is there a general rule of thumb for starting positions or how moving mics in which directions will afect the tone?I just want to try to know what I'm doing before I get at it. I seen a diagram for a band (not sure which one) but people tend to use the technique a lot. I forgot what it is also haha. I know I am of no use, but I am trying to spark someones memory on this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Badside Posted January 30, 2007 Members Share Posted January 30, 2007 One thing you can try: SM57 mostly in the center to capture the "grind", then the 421 farther on the cone.Then you can blend both mics to "EQ" your sound. Phase problems are not such a problem today, now that you can move audio tracks sample by sample... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Herald of Light Posted January 30, 2007 Members Share Posted January 30, 2007 Well, positioning wouldn't be as tough if I knew some good places to start or anything. How should things be sounding together? Is there a general rule of thumb for starting positions or how moving mics in which directions will afect the tone?I just want to try to know what I'm doing before I get at it. Ok, I know this is hard to understand, but there are no "starting places." You just have to tinker with it. We do not have your amp, cab, guitar, mics, interface, preamps, room, and everything else that goes with it. It's always different. The answer is just what sounds best. What you could try is getting a good sound from each mic by itself, then putting them together and seeing what happens. That's not TOTALLY ideal, because you want them to work together, and in the case of each one sounding its best, they'd probably be eating up most of the frequency range on their own, but it'll get you close. What's likely to happen when you do that, though, is that you may not be completely satisfied with any of them by themselves, because they may seem to leave a bit of a gap somewhere, and when you put them together, they compliment each other and fill in the holes the other leaves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Eternal_idol Posted January 30, 2007 Members Share Posted January 30, 2007 well to put it in simple terms as i hear it. the cone(middle of the speaker) has a very accented high end, can get thin. rim of duct cap(that thing you see in the middle isn't the cone its the dust cap) Balenced tone but still upper mid heavy. i like this position for on axis(mic pointed at the speaker with no angle...am i correct here??) 57 micing depends on the speaker too. between the duct cap and the rim of the speaker. low mid and bass heavy here, a bit warmer because its away from the cone. near the rim is more bass heavy. now that covers axis micing i belive(for close micing anyway) now try these positions but with the mic angled one way. i don't know the logictics of this but i just know its sounds good from experiance. hope this helps. oh and remember the 421 is a scoop sounding mic while the 57 has alot of mids. just something to know. Brae Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members IBBIAZ Posted February 3, 2007 Author Members Share Posted February 3, 2007 Well, I've figured out the point that further awqay micing equals an airier sound where closer, it has more punch to it! Sounds obvious enough, but still, figured that out. I'm have some trouble with the mics phasing, though. Even when I hit the phase reverse button, it still phases, but has a different tone of phasing (if that makes any sense). Can anyone give me any tips or rules of thumb about mic phasing? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members IBBIAZ Posted February 3, 2007 Author Members Share Posted February 3, 2007 HEre's a zip of some clips (close mic, far, together, and phase inverted) to show what I mean. http://www.sendspace.com/file/fevrx3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Herald of Light Posted February 3, 2007 Members Share Posted February 3, 2007 Here's a decent article:http://www.prosoundweb.com/install/spotlight/bartlett/phase/phase.shtml If you get them placed right, it should be fine without flipping the phase. You really don't want to have to do that with just two mics on one source, because it's easily avoidable. If you put them both close, you shouldn't have a problem. If you want to have one backed up, you need to have the distance ratios correct. Also, the reason the mics sound "punchier" when they're close is because of proximity effect. Because of the way they function, when non-omni mics are placed very close to a source, it exaggerates the low end response. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members IBBIAZ Posted February 3, 2007 Author Members Share Posted February 3, 2007 The article does a lot of things with two instruments, so I'm trying to figure out how to apply it to one source: a guitar cab. So, first, is the 3:1 rule only used to lower the volume of the further mic? If so, doesn't that make it almost useless if you want to turn the backup mic up to create the ambient sound? And I mean this, if I'm doing something like one mic a foot away and the other three feet away... assuming that it works the same way for a single source. And also, can you do multiples of 3? Like 9:1, 27:1, 81:1? It would be almost useless to have one mic an inch away and the other three inches back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Eternal_idol Posted February 3, 2007 Members Share Posted February 3, 2007 The article does a lot of things with two instruments, so I'm trying to figure out how to apply it to one source: a guitar cab. So, first, is the 3:1 rule only used to lower the volume of the further mic? If so, doesn't that make it almost useless if you want to turn the backup mic up to create the ambient sound? And I mean this, if I'm doing something like one mic a foot away and the other three feet away... assuming that it works the same way for a single source. And also, can you do multiples of 3? Like 9:1, 27:1, 81:1? It would be almost useless to have one mic an inch away and the other three inches back. 3:1 is just a minimum from my understanding...but you have to remember that if you are mic'in the cone you've got 3-4 inchs of room from the grill to the sorce. so if you close mic'd with one mic and had another mic about a foot back that should be in phase. another trick with distance mic'in is you can blend room sounds and sorce sounds with the mic gain knob. the higher the gain the more of the room the mic picks up.Brae Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members IBBIAZ Posted February 3, 2007 Author Members Share Posted February 3, 2007 Well, the first mic is right up against the mesh of the amp and the second is at least 4 feet back, so it has to be a ratio or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Bob Savage Posted February 3, 2007 Members Share Posted February 3, 2007 Phase problems are not such a problem today, now that you can move audio tracks sample by sample... You're kidding, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Herald of Light Posted February 3, 2007 Members Share Posted February 3, 2007 You're kidding, right? Hehe I tried to just act like that didn't happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Darth Balls Posted February 3, 2007 Members Share Posted February 3, 2007 I use an sm57/beta with a 421 in a comparison clip thread, they're in my sig too. I thought the micing technique was then ok, but now I think I need to move the edge mic more towards the cap for less sub lows and more mids. The 421 is staying on the cap though, and mixed way low. I also notch out a lot of nasties. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Badside Posted February 3, 2007 Members Share Posted February 3, 2007 You're kidding, right? Nope I'm not. It's always better to get it right at the source.But I find that if I didn't listen carefully enough, I can "nudge" one of the tracks by a few samples to time align everything. This can also work creatively: move one of the tracks around to CREATE phase cancellation and tweak the sound. Apparently, phase cancellation on purpose is one of the secrets behind the Black album sound... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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