Writing better lyrics

[rsadasiv]

personally, if you need a book to tell you how to write lyrics, you're {censored}ed just pick a dozen songs you like and rip them off ... over and over again, until you start "getting it" those "how to" books just get you writing trite crap of course, NOT reading the "how to" books also get you writing trite crap, as my stuff will prove {censored}ed either way, unless you have it .. in which case you don't need the "how to" books for the rest of us, i guess getting drunk is a good option

 

 

Lemme check what I've got in the fridge....

[JSM]

 

personally, if you need a book to tell you how to write lyrics, you're {censored}ed just pick a dozen songs you like and rip them off ... over and over again, until you start "getting it" those "how to" books just get you writing trite crap of course, NOT reading the "how to" books also get you writing trite crap, as my stuff will prove {censored}ed either way, unless you have it .. in which case you don't need the "how to" books for the rest of us, i guess getting drunk is a good option

 

 

 

I wholeheartedly agree.

I have been writing lyrics since age 12 or so. My first lyrics ever were to the music of a Krokus song.

Then I started to just write on own 3 chords and the truth kind of songs. And I have written in many genres of music over the past 15 yrs or so.

If you can't write based on your experience and what you see around you with out the help of a lyric writing book then really... don't bother. Have someone else write em for ya. If it isn't from your heart it doesn't really matter.

[kurdy]

 

true enough ... you can always learn something new but how come none of these people who write the "how to write better lyrics" ever wrote "Like a Rolling Stone" or "Born to Run?" or even a half-way decent song? these by-the-book books tend to produce by-the-book songs ... which are boring and fall short of greatness by a long shot that ain't the way to great lyrics, imho

 

 

That is true in some cases, however Pat Pattison's book really is one of the good ones. The book emphasizes finding your own unique voice as a songwriter and not resorting to triteness or cliches. I actually found an excerpt online from one of the chapters of the book, that deals with this very subject: http://www.lyricist.com/bookshop/ch4.html

 

Although, I do think something can be said for the usefulness of the "by-the-book" books as well. They provide a basic knowledge of the elements that make a song work, which one can build upon. You gotta learn to walk before you can run (cliche! Pattison would point that out).

 

The only gripe I have with Pattison's book is that some of the exercises are just a bit too complicated and excessive. I don't think one necessarily needs to go through the lengths the author suggests in order to write a song, although I'm sure many of them are quite useful to do, if you have the patience.

[kennychaffin]

true enough ... you can always learn something new but how come none of these people who write the "how to write better lyrics" ever wrote "Like a Rolling Stone" or "Born to Run?" or even a half-way decent song? these by-the-book books tend to produce by-the-book songs ... which are boring and fall short of greatness by a long shot that ain't the way to great lyrics, imho

 

 

This is a different argument. It's the old teachers teach because they can't do. Which has nothing to do with creativity and that is what creates a mega-hit. When all the pieces come together. The lyric alone is not a song but a part of it. If you are a slave to only certain techniques then yeah, your going to only do what you were taught, but if you learn it as a foundation from which to depart then you can create the mega-hit and do it in an intentional manner rather than from random learning or random attempts. You

know that old saying If you put an infinite number of monkeys in front of typewriters (computers) for an infinite time, they will eventually produce Shakespeare, the Bible, etc.

 

I'd rather the fruits of my creativity happen in shorter order.

 

KAC

[Eclepto Funk]

 

This is a different argument. It's the old teachers teach because they can't do.

 

 

 

it wasn't an argument. it was a statement of fact:

 

none of the people writing "how to" books has ever written a great song

 

you can counter that fact by providing evidence to the contrary

 

the argument (using that fact) is as follows:

 

since none of the people writing the "how to" books have ever written a great song, i don't think they know what they are talking about when it comes to writing a great song

 

my point, stemming from the above argument, is as follows:

 

if Bob Dylan or Bruce Springsteen ever wrote a "how to book," you better believe i'd read it. until then, reading such books is probably a waste of my time

 

it's a question of who you are going to learn from. the people writing the geat songs, or people selling you books about writing great songs (which they've never done to begin with)

[kennychaffin]

it wasn't an argument. it was a statement of fact: none of the people writing "how to" books has ever written a great song you can counter that fact by providing evidence to the contrary the argument (using that fact) is as follows: since none of the people writing the "how to" books have ever written a great song, i don't think they know what they are talking about when it comes to writing a great song my point, stemming from the above argument, is as follows: if Bob Dylan or Bruce Springsteen ever wrote a "how to book," you better believe i'd read it. until then, reading such books is probably a waste of my time it's a question of who you are going to learn from. the people writing the geat songs, or people selling you books about writing great songs (which they've never done to begin with)

 

 

No the point is, that your arguement doesn't matter. Please re-read what I (and others) wrote. It doesn't matter what kind of reputation the teacher has, it matters whether they understand the topic and can teach it. Many creative geniuses can't teach worth beans, that's why they don't.

 

You are better to have a teacher than to fumble around on your own if you want to make progress.

 

 

 

KAC

P.S. What hit song have you written following your method?

[Eclepto Funk]

 

P.S. What hit song have you written following your method?

 

 

 

but i'm not trying to make money teaching others how to do something i don't know how to do myself

 

of course, there's a name for that ....

 

btw, i noticed you declined to argue with me using facts ... instead, you resorted to a personal attack .. fine enough, here it comes back at you

 

i could as easily ask, what hit songs have you written using the books? perhaps you need to list all of them in chronological order so that i may be suitably impressed, no? feel free to take up several posts if the list won't fit in a single post ...

 

i'll be over here waiting for you to finish. no hurry ...

[Eclepto Funk]

oops double post

[kennychaffin]

The thing you are not understanding is that you don't have an argument, I'm not arguing, you are.

 

All I'm saying is if you want to write songs you should learn everything you can, in whatever manner you can. You are arguing to NOT do something, that's silly, but if that's what you want to do feel free.

 

I'll be watching for your name on the Billboard charts and at the Grammies.

 

KAC

[Eclepto Funk]

I'll be watching for your name on the Billboard charts and at the Grammies.

 

hey, you're the one reading the books that will show you how to do that ... what's your excuse for not having a Grammy already? or having every song you write be a hit?

 

slacker ... no excuse for having learned to do something and refusing to do it

 

i suggest you write a book about it

 

[kennychaffin]

hey, you're the one reading the books that will show you how to do that ... what's your excuse for not having a Grammy already? or having every song you write be a hit? slacker ... no excuse for having learned to do something and refusing to do it

 

 

Keep watchin'

 

and keep writing and learning and playing music. That's the main thing.

 

KAC

[Eclepto Funk]

Keep watchin'

 

 

and i wish you the best ... i hope you do write a bunch of great songs, whichever way you do it

[kennychaffin]

and i wish you the best ... i hope you do write a bunch of great songs, whichever way you do it

 

Thanks. Much appreciated and the same for you and all the other songwriters here as well!

 

KAC

[kurdy]

 

it wasn't an argument. it was a statement of fact: none of the people writing "how to" books has ever written a great song you can counter that fact by providing evidence to the contrary

 

 

OK. I think Jimmy Webb wrote one, didn't he? I haven't read it though.

[kennychaffin]

 

OK. I think Jimmy Webb wrote one, didn't he? I haven't read it though.

 

 

Yep, Tunesmith. I'm reading it now.

 

KAC

[Eclepto Funk]

 

OK. I think Jimmy Webb wrote one, didn't he? I haven't read it though.

 

 

Wichita Lineman is a pretty good song (in my opinion, of course) ... i am not too crazy about his other stuff

 

"someone left a cake out in the rain ...??"

 

wtf.

 

"By the Time I get to Phoenix" is plain tripe

 

i wouldn't buy his book, though he seems to know how to write a commercial song, i just don't happen to like his style

 

let me put it this way, i don't want to learn to write like he does, other than Wichita Lineman -- i don't think his songs "have it" but i do admit that's my opinion

 

i did say i'd buy Dylan's or Springsteen's books if they ever wrote one

 

i'm beginning to think this may have to do more with what someone thinks is "A GREAT SONG" than with any objectively measurable criteria

 

that said, i think the people who write the "how to books" are at this level of talent: good enough to write somewhat decent songs, but nothing extraordinary

 

or let me put it this way: how many of us are going around saying "I want to have the talent Jimmy Webb has ... God please give me Jimmy Webb's ability to write songs" ????

 

not me ... however, i would say both about Dylan and Springsteen, and quite a few more people ... none of whom, as it happens, are writing "how to" books

[kurdy]

 

Wichita Lineman is a pretty good song (in my opinion, of course) ... i am not too crazy about his other stuff "someone left a cake out in the rain ...??" wtf. "By the Time I get to Phoenix" is plain tripe

 

 

Yeah--"McCarthur Park" is cheesy as hell. Not as familiar with "Pheonix". Actually, from what I heard about Webb's book, it's a bit too doctrinaire. Exactly the kind of book you probably wouldn't like (of course I haven't read it myself, so I can't say for sure). However, most of the books that I've read on the subject, they don't pretend to be the definitive authority on songwriting. They're just meant to be a tool to help you pick apart songs and see what makes them tick, so you can apply the knowledge to your own writing. "Looking under the hood", so to speak. Of course, it's entirely possible to figure it out on your own, but I figure, if the tools are there to help you get there quicker, can't hurt to use them.

[captain average]

eclepto's right. all the great writers did it the same way. they learned a bunch of songs and copied them or used them for inspiration.

[bibleboy3]

I need to figure out syncopation?? ... when you write some thing how do you know what the time sig. is going to be??

[KennethNishimot]

The two books I'd have to say have helped me most lyrically are probably "The Writers Journey" and the unrelated "The Artist's Way".

 

I find the majority of songwriting books tend to focus far too much on creating functional lyrics, and not enough on creating, period. When I write lyrics, I try to trancend the several cliche "boxes" that the english language tends to fall into, and I embrace the true nature of creativity. It's a more ergonomic, minimalist, repetitive process, but at the same time, I get these beautiful organic results that truly express what exactly I'm trying to express.

[leopardstar]

jeez, i just read this whole thread hoping that the op would start a few lesson's. the one link to pat's book was a little helpful. imo, the more one can learn about doing what he wants to do, the better off he'll be. the more info the better.

i look at it like trying to learn a new job, you don't just walk in not knowing what to do, hopefully someone is there to teach you how to best do it.

of course after awhile you'll develope your own way of doing the job. the same with writing, learn all you can, then develope your own style. ymmv

[Fenderman1991]

THanks! Ill be sure to look out for it, as I deffinaely need to improve in this field. I currently have Songwriting for Dummies, and Writing Songs on Guitar, which is more about the music not lyrics.

 

THanks agian!

[Kestral]

It's 6 years later and I just ordered the book, cool_E

[wwwjd]

hahahahhahaa! You got me looking into it also. THEN I noticed the date on this thread. hahahahah THANKS

 

I've been thru some books, and now days I gotta ask myself.... do these methods STILL apply in TODAYS market? Seems pop music has moved to the new system of "Writing hits"

1. Collaborate "Featuring" someone else

2. only talk about sex and dancing

3. loop or sample older songs

4. talk more than you sing.

 

Lyrics and melody no longer matter as much as beats and banging. Is there a book about how to write that? .... if you are trying to write "hits", not just good music

[kennychaffin]

hahahahhahaa! You got me looking into it also. THEN I noticed the date on this thread. hahahahah THANKS I've been thru some books, and now days I gotta ask myself.... do these methods STILL apply in TODAYS market? Seems pop music has moved to the new system of "Writing hits" 1. Collaborate "Featuring" someone else 2. only talk about sex and dancing 3. loop or sample older songs 4. talk more than you sing. Lyrics and melody no longer matter as much as beats and banging. Is there a book about how to write that? .... if you are trying to write "hits", not just good music

 

Hey I think you've hit on something!

 

KAC