There are only two chords!

[Terje]

The only real motion in our music is the one from the V chord, the Dominant chord, to the I chord or the tonic. Then a song can have many tonal centers and therefore many V chords and I chords but basically this is all that happens. Tension an release. It can be good to remember sometimes when soloing but also when writing.

[Brian Marshall]

I would have to disagree. There's a lot of songs in minor keys. Resolving from a V to I chord would make a nice key change, but usually your would resolve to the vi chord (realtive minor chord) I guess you could argue that it is similar, but make your IV chord a 9th chord, play your vi chord as a 7th...... ahhh never mind.

[sevenroy]

 

Originally posted by Terje The only real motion in our music is the one from the V chord, the Dominant chord, to the I chord or the tonic. Then a song can have many tonal centers and therefore many V chords and I chords but basically this is all that happens. Tension an release. It can be good to remember sometimes when soloing but also when writing.

 

 

Can you elaborate a bit? I understand what you're saying, but I don't agree. If you're talking about rock/pop music, then yeah, I agree. This seems to be the trend.

 

What about a V-ii-I progression, sometimes used in jazz. That's a IV-I, then a ii-I, which is also a good tension releaser.

[Terje]

I'm not good with the minor keys here so I might be off in that case. But in a major key the real motion is from the V chord (or it's substitutions) to the I chord (or it's subtitutions). A ii chord is just a V chord in disguise. A IV chord is mostly a I chord with a little suspended tension added to it.

 

Let's take the notes of the C major scale ans see what chord they go with. C and E go with the I chord. D goes with the V chord. F goes with the V chord and G goes with both. A goes with the I chord. B goes with the V chord. All the non-scale tone you might add all go with the V chord.

 

"If you're using more than two chords you're showing off!"

[WattsUrizen]

 

Originally posted by Terje The only real motion in our music is the one from the V chord, the Dominant chord, to the I chord or the tonic. Then a song can have many tonal centers and therefore many V chords and I chords but basically this is all that happens. Tension an release. It can be good to remember sometimes when soloing but also when writing.

 

 

I see what you are getting at. But it's still a fallacy. Yes, harmonic progressions are about tension and release. But tension and release is not merely the V chord to the I chord (and its derivatives). Of course, in tonal music, the V-I is the most important harmonic progression. But it is not the only one.

 

Also, your claim that 'the only real motion in our music is the one from the V chord... to the I chord' is untrue, not only for the reason I stated above, but also because you are thinking only in a harmonic sense. You are forgeting the motion created in music by melodic and contrapuntal designs. Often it is these designs which create the motion in the harmonic design, and the harmonic progression is a consequence of the melody.

 

Also, your example of trying to relate scale tones to chords is unreasonable. Scale tones can work in any manner depending on the harmonic and melodic design, and are not rigidly related to any chord. Notes that do not appear in a diatonic scale can be used to form chromatic harmony, which always creates tension, but of course is not always related to the perfect cadence.

 

So again, I can see what you are getting at, and why you might think it, since it is so abundant in music. But it is untrue in a technical and a musical sense.

[Pace]

This is a philosiphical over simplification. Songs can be written That incoporate neither the 5 nor the 1 chord. Well, without the one is rare....but it's also neato!

[swingset]

Well, going back to John Cage, I contend that the only rules to art and music is having the panache to pass it off as art and music. Otherwise, there's not much you can define, classify or pass judgement on. I just stick junk together till it sounds neat. If I knew what I were doing, or anyone else was doing, it would lose all it's worth.

[ninjaaron]

why did you post this?

I can't think of a single reason

[fingerpicker]

This thread has a whole lot to do with nothing.

[ebmm_axis]

 

Man, that was a ridiculous statement. Even if you were kidding. Geez...

[sevenroy]

Yeah! And explain to me how a ii is a V in disguise. Let's look at the notes, shall we?

 

C:V=G or G B D

C:ii=Dm or D F A

 

Where's the disguise? Maybe you can substitute a Dm for G, but it's not as close as say, a Bm, which would be a C:iii/V.

[Terje]

 

Originally posted by ninjaaron why did you post this? I can't think of a single reason

 

 

The point with this over simplification is that it can help you see the big movements in a very complex pice of music. It can be useful whether you're composing or improvising, but maybe especially for the latter.

[Terje]

 

Originally posted by sevenroy Yeah! And explain to me how a ii is a V in disguise.

 

 

In a ii-V-I progression the ii chord is really just a substitute for the V chord, they're interchangeable. But actually the ii chord has more in common with the IV chord. The IV chord is ambigious, it's either a weak V chord or a suspended I chord.

[Terje]

 

Originally posted by Anomandaris Also, your example of trying to relate scale tones to chords is unreasonable.

 

 

No, it's not.

 

 

Scale tones can work in any manner depending on the harmonic and melodic design, and are not rigidly related to any chord.

 

 

And the chords are made up of what? Scale tones. They are related to chords. Depending on how the melody goes they will absolutely imply certain chord changes. And if we want to see/hear the big movement going on this is the one, V-I.

 

 

Notes that do not appear in a diatonic scale can be used to form chromatic harmony, which always creates tension, but of course is not always related to the perfect cadence.

 

 

Tension is created by moving away from the tonal center, which is the function of the V chord.

[Terje]

 

Originally posted by ebmm_axis "If you're using more than two chords you're showing off!" Man, that was a ridiculous statement. Even if you were kidding. Geez...

 

 

It's a Woody Guthrie quote. It was indeed a joke and the rest of the quote is "And if I wanna impress a girl in the audience I just might throw in a C". Kinda funny actually. Don't take things too seriously.

 

The reason I came to think about that was that I used to say it to a friend of mine, a bebop guitar player who has taught me lots about chords and harmony, when he had driven me nuts with all these chords.

 

Much later we're standing at a festival listening to Chock Chorea's band and he suddenly says to me "Well, that's exaclty how these players think, two chords. They're just playing tension notes that resolve nicely to different tonic chords". "What about IV chords?" I said. "Nah, they're just strong I chords".

[sevenroy]

You know what Terje, I'm starting to get you. Sad, really, but it does make sense. Dm to G to C. Okay, you got me.

 

The strongest chord progressions, however, are up a fourth (V-I), down a third (iii-I), and up a second (vii-I). Explain the latter two as V-I progressions.

[fingerpicker]

this thread is killing me!... (sitting over my computer laughing wildly.!!)

 

So is a major chord really a minor "in disguise?!" Is the 1 chord really a diminished chord but with a flatted root, which then could act like a V chord taking into consideration the barometric pressure and of course depending on the time zone in which you live.....oh forget it...

[sevenroy]

I'm testing you here.

[Terje]

Originally posted by fingerpicker this thread is killing me!... (sitting over my computer laughing wildly.!!)

 

Well, maybe you should stop doing that.

 

So is a major chord really a minor "in disguise?!"

 

Dm or Dm7 is dominant minor chord of G7 and used as a substitute, mostly in jazz and blues, but in all other kinds of music as well.

 

Why? Cause it has the notes F and D in it. And especially the F is going to lead very strongly to E which is one of the most important, if not the most important note of C, the I chord here.

 

But Dm7 can also be seen as F6. That's why the ii-V-I progression is so appealing, it's actually a IV-V-I. But I'd still say that most jazz players treat it as V-V-I.

[Terje]

 

Originally posted by sevenroy The strongest chord progressions, however, are up a fourth (V-I), down a third (iii-I), and up a second (vii-I). Explain the latter two as V-I progressions.

 

 

Well let's see... iii-I can be either a V-I progression if the B is emphasized or not a change at all really but a vamp on the I chord with the major 7th as a color tone.

 

vii-I is that a Bb7 or a Bm7b5? If it's Bm7b5 it's obvious cause that really is just a G9 chord, minus the root. Which we don't need here for anything cause G is alreay present in the I chord.

 

Don't know about a Bb7 chord, could it be seen as a G7 altered perhaps? Again, any tension that moves away from the tonic chord works as a V chord. That's how for instance tritone subs work (but in these the tritone of the V chord is retained which is not the case here).

[WattsUrizen]

 

Originally posted by Terje Again, any tension that moves away from the tonic chord works as a V chord.

 

 

That is utter ignorance.

 

 

And the chords are made up of what? Scale tones. They are related to chords. Depending on how the melody goes they will absolutely imply certain chord changes. And if we want to see/hear the big movement going on this is the one, V-I.

 

 

Chords comes from scales, yes thats true. And if you choose to make it so, a melody can imply certain chord changes - but not necessarily. But to say that the overall movement is V-I is a fallacy. It fails to acknowledge all the motion created elsewhere, be it rhythmic/melodic/harmonic.

 

Rhythmically, we can syncopate, we can use polyrhythms, we can change time signatures, etc.

 

Melodically, we can invert, retrograde, transpose, diminish, augment, etc.

 

Harmonically, we can use chromaticism, non-diatonic scales, atonality, serialism, etc.

 

Contrapuntally, we can use canon, fugue, oblique motion, parallel motion, contrary motion, etc.

 

All of these things create tension and motion. None of them imply the V-I.

[sevenroy]

 

Originally posted by Terje vii-I is that a Bb7 or a Bm7b5? If it's Bm7b5 it's obvious cause that really is just a G9 chord, minus the root. Which we don't need here for anything cause G is alreay present in the I chord. Don't know about a Bb7 chord, could it be seen as a G7 altered perhaps? Again, any tension that moves away from the tonic chord works as a V chord. That's how for instance tritone subs work (but in these the tritone of the V chord is retained which is not the case here).

 

 

the vii or VII can be either chord. You're right with the B half diminished chord, it is a substitute for G9. The Bb7 chord, or Bbmaj7 chords are also substitutes for G, the former being for Gmb9 the latter being for Gm9. Minor key stuff.

 

Also, I think what Anomandaris is trying to say is that chord tones don't always have to come from the key scale of the piece. For example, though a song may be in the key of C, that doesn't mean you can't have a Dm9#11.

[Terje]

Originally posted by Anomandaris That is utter ignorance.

 

No, it's not. Let me shoot a hole in your argument... let's first look at your argmuentation...

 

Chords comes from scales, yes thats true. And if you choose to make it so, a melody can imply certain chord changes - but not necessarily. But to say that the overall movement is V-I is a fallacy. It fails to acknowledge all the motion created elsewhere, be it rhythmic/melodic/harmonic. Rhythmically, we can syncopate, we can use polyrhythms, we can change time signatures, etc. Melodically, we can invert, retrograde, transpose, diminish, augment, etc. Harmonically, we can use chromaticism, non-diatonic scales, atonality, serialism, etc. Contrapuntally, we can use canon, fugue, oblique motion, parallel motion, contrary motion, etc. All of these things create tension and motion. None of them imply the V-I.

 

You're trying to trick yourself out of this by adding rhytm to the whole debate. That's another discussion. Nice try though

 

However, harmonically you must know that the tritone in the V7 chord supports any tension. Any form of tension is actually a sub for the V chord. Any release of that tension is a move to the I chord.

 

Harmonically speaking.

 

Rhythmic tension is a whole other thing to be added to this to make it even more intersting.

[WattsUrizen]

Originally posted by Terje You're trying to trick yourself out of this by adding rhytm to the whole debate. That's another discussion. Nice try though

 

Harmony can not be analysed successfully without attention to rhythm. As such, tension can not be explained properly without attention to rhythm.

 

Harmony can also not be analysed successfully without attention to melody. The basis for good harmony is voice-leading. So to explain harmony properly, we need to pay attention to melody.

 

This is why I brought additional aspects into the debate. Because you can not talk about the tension that is created by harmony, without also looking at the melody which creates the voice leading, and the rhythm which supports that.

 

The reality is that even if you have the same harmonic progression, it can function differently if the rhythm is changed.

 

Of course, the perfect cadence is so strong that rhythm does not alter it a great deal.

 

However, harmonically you must know that the tritone in the V7 chord supports any tension. Any form of tension is actually a sub for the V chord. Any release of that tension is a move to the I chord.

 

Classically, the tritone resolves to the major third, and this forms the basis for the perfect cadence.

 

However in modern idioms the tritone does not necessarily resolve to the major third. In fact, any interval does not necessarily resolve anywhere. Thus any tension can be used anywhere to resolve to any place. Yes, the most profound tension-release is the dominant to tonic (tritone to major third). But it is not the only.

[Terje]

Originally posted by Anomandaris Harmony can not be analysed successfully without attention to rhythm. As such, tension can not be explained properly without attention to rhythm. Harmony can also not be analysed successfully without attention to melody. The basis for good harmony is voice-leading. So to explain harmony properly, we need to pay attention to melody. This is why I brought additional aspects into the debate. Because you can not talk about the tension that is created by harmony, without also looking at the melody which creates the voice leading, and the rhythm which supports that. The reality is that even if you have the same harmonic progression, it can function differently if the rhythm is changed.

 

You are actually right.

 

Of course, the perfect cadence is so strong that rhythm does not alter it a great deal.

 

This was partly my point.

 

Classically, the tritone resolves to the major third, and this forms the basis for the perfect cadence.

 

You know, this is good enough for most of us.

 

However in modern idioms the tritone does not necessarily resolve to the major third. In fact, any interval does not necessarily resolve anywhere. Thus any tension can be used anywhere to resolve to any place. Yes, the most profound tension-release is the dominant to tonic (tritone to major third). But it is not the only.

 

I know, but this is for you advanced guys