I used to laugh at people that spent the money on NOS tubes. Not anymore.

[Soundstorm]

As some of you know, I recently aquired some barely used Telefunkens and original Mullard 12ax7's.

 

This whole weekend was spent trying different combinations of my new production tubes and the NOS ones. The difference is *ASTOUNDING* (and this is just the preamp section!).

 

In the mix were two Groove Tubes 12ax7/(7025), 2 Tung Sol Reissues, Sovtek WC, Sovtek LPS, two original Mullards, and a half dozen original Telefunken.

 

I will never, I repeat NEVER go without NOS tubes in my amp again. The difference in my tone now is just unbelievable. I have a mullard in the clean slot, two Telefunkens in the OD slots, and a Sovtek LPS in the Phase Inverter.

 

I tried every possible combination possible, and this works the best for my sound. I never knew preamp tubes could make such a huge impact in sound. I just bought my new Tiny Terror today, still with the stock tubes, and it sounds great...but I can't wait to see what it's going to sound like with the Teles or Mullards in there. Then I'm thinking either JJ EL84 or TAD EL84 for the power section.

 

The moral of the story is, if you scour ebay and come across some great deals on NOS tubes, do yourself a favor and go for it....but I have a feeling you'll be spoiled from then on out.

[HKSblade1]

[Soundstorm]

 

Corn chips?

[HKSblade1]

naaa that's for bad breath

[HKSblade1]

Funny that posting that made me run down for some popcorn in the machine here! Out of buttered, had to go with orig flavor

 

To go ahead and add to the post. I've tried many tubes. Some make a change, some seem to not make any. Depends more

on the amp your swapping tubes in.

[Soundstorm]

Funny that posting that made me run down for some popcorn in the machine here! Out of buttered, had to go with orig flavor To go ahead and add to the post. I've tried many tubes. Some make a change, some seem to not make any. Depends more on the amp your swapping tubes in.

 

I guess so....but I've owned many amps over the years, and I always try many different types of tubes before I eventually sell it. I always found the changes to be minute, but this time I found there was a huge improvement

[HKSblade1]

I honestly think on some amps, it's placebo at best. Some of the better built amps do have appreciable change with NOS tubes. I had a friend spend over $300 on tubes for a Valveking 1x12 He swore up and down things were better. I just said uhh huh

[jockman]

I honestly think on some amps, it's placebo at best. Some of the better built amps do have appreciable change with NOS tubes. I had a friend spend over $300 on tubes for a Valveking 1x12 He swore up and down things were better. I just said uhh huh

 

Thats a very valid point. Most modern amps do not really benifit from Nos valves, but a lot of 'vintage' stuff does, My Carlsbro combo HATES modern valves.

[Soundstorm]

 

Thats a very valid point. Most modern amps do not really benifit from Nos valves, but a lot of 'vintage' stuff does, My Carlsbro combo HATES modern valves.

 

 

Trust me on this. I make a living with my ears. I've been a FOH engineer for 5 years, and done studio work on the side. This wasn't only a difference, but a big one.........***when your drummer notices it without you saying anything about it, there's a difference! LOL***

[lndianScout]

my Ampeg came with Groove tubes, dunno if I should bother changing them or not 6L6

[JoshuaLogan]

 

Trust me on this. I make a living with my ears. I've been a FOH engineer for 5 years, and done studio work on the side. This wasn't only a difference, but a big one.........***when your drummer notices it without you saying anything about it, there's a difference! LOL***

 

 

using different cabs/speakers/pickups = 100x more of a difference

[Skunx]

^truth^

[JoshuaLogan]

 

my Ampeg came with Groove tubes, dunno if I should bother changing them or not 6L6

 

 

i wouldn't worry about it if you're not having any problems. most groove tubes are just other brands relabeled anyways.... jj, sovteks, svetlana, etc.

[lndianScout]

ahh thanks, I'll leave it as it, huge big round fat sound I love..

[Teleplayer]

I am not a FOH engineer, but I have done well over 200 gigs, recorded in two pro studios in Chicago and been playing 30 years.

 

With that said, most of the amps made today are designed around current production tubes. Most amp designers and manufacturers won't design their amps around NOS tubes because they are not plentiful and are really expensive.

 

Next, the global inventory of NOS tubes is pretty small....and dwindling. Think about it, NOS tubes were produced....well.....years ago. Thus, there will never be a fresh supply of NOS tubes. So......there are tons of fakes out there and if you don't know what you are doing, then it is easy to be taken in by guys selling faux NOS tubes. Only buy them from a reputable tube dealer like Mike at KCA, Doug at Doug's Tubes, Lord Valve, etc. I would trust eBay auctions about as far as I could throw them. Not sayin' they are all untrustworthy, but let's just say you are probably better off making sure the NOS tubes you are buying are not current production models with an old looking silk screen or bogus numbers etched in the glass. Think about it, does it really make sense that there could be a never-ending supply of Mullards, Telefunkens, Brimar's, Mazdas, GEs, RCAs, etc. and that so many of them just happen to wind up in the hands of people selling them on eBay?

 

Lastly, NOS tubes are great for amps where you can actually hear the difference - like clean sounding old Fender tweeds, BF Fenders, old Marshalls and old Voxes. I would venture to say that 95% of people could never tell the difference between a new production tube versus NOS in a higher gain amp. As one of the top amp builders/designers told me over the phone a couple months ago when we were discussing NOS tubes, "If you are in a perfectly quiet recording studio layng down a tack with a 3,000 dollar tube mic in front of your amp, then you would probably be able to hear the differences. Otherwise, especially in a live stage mix, you will not be able to tell." He has sold more than 2,500 amps worldwide and has incredble ears -- and mad skills as a builder.

 

NOS tubes are cool as long as: you are certain they are NOS tubes, you get them from a well-respected dealer, you get them for a sensible price, and you own an amp in which they will make a difference.

[lndianScout]

my old Ampeg vt40 still has the orig 7027a (6L6) I believe, still sound killer since 1972, needs the speakers reconed tho..

[Slaymoar]

NOS tubes were built in the world wars. Lot of equipment used tubes before the 50's .. hell tubes were still used up to about the 90's. They were produced in mega loads in fear of the wars would not end. Warehouses full of tubes were filled ready to ship into war territory. When the wars ended, tube warehouses replenished their stocks to as much as possible in fear of another war. It was a market boom for tubes.

 

Now, we are still left with an abundant source of it. I can reassure everyone that there are plenty of NOS tubes left today. Kind of like fossil fuel, they will probably run out in the next 20-30 years or so...

 

-D

[Oops-A-Paisley]

[Teleplayer]

 

NOS tubes were built in the world wars. Lot of equipment used tubes before the 50's .. hell tubes were still used up to about the 90's. They were produced in mega loads in fear of the wars would not end. Warehouses full of tubes were filled ready to ship into war territory. When the wars ended, tube warehouses replenished their stocks to as much as possible in fear of another war. It was a market boom for tubes. Now, we are still left with an abundant source of it. I can reassure everyone that there are plenty of NOS tubes left today. Kind of like fossil fuel, they will probably run out in the next 20-30 years or so... -D

 

 

Interesting analogy. However, many of the tubes manufactured for military prodcution in the 50s and 60s were not tubes that are usable in guitar amps.

 

Also, many of the top tube sellers and amp builders do not believe there is an abundant supply of NOS tubes suitable for use in guitar amps at all. This is one of the various reasons the builders do not create or build their circuits around NOS tubes.

[newholland]

 

Interesting analogy. However, many of the tubes manufactured for military prodcution in the 50s and 60s were not tubes that are usable in guitar amps. Also, many of the top tube sellers and amp builders do not believe there is an abundant supply of NOS tubes suitable for use in guitar amps at all. This is one of the various reasons the builders do not create or build their circuits around NOS tubes.

 

 

i'm not really sure why you'd say this-- the 'specs' of tubes are fairly constant, as they were created for specific purposes out of reference manuals FOR tube design. it's not as if 'modern' tube amps are designed around different specification tubes- the specs of modern tubes are roughly the same, they're just made cheaper. a 12ax7's amplification specs are still roughly the same as they were in the 50's.

 

meanwhile, by the same token-- there's LOTS of tubes out there that're 'standards' for their gain ratios-- 12ax7's, at's, au's.. lots of 'em are great, reliable, small, and cheap-- and they used them in TONS of field equipment.

 

musikazoo isn't full of {censored} here-- i've experienced THE EXACT same transformation in my mesas, as well as multiple hifi amps, and it's easy to scoff if you don't want to spend the money up front. just say 'i don't want to spend the money'- if that's the case-- fully understandable. but when people say 'NOS is CRAP' or 'speaker changes are bigger changes'.. you're kinda missing the point. SURE-- a speaker change WILL make a huge dif-- but there are changes in feel and response that a speaker won't do. a circuit with 'traction' does make a difference that isn't a placebo.

 

in order of magnitude-- NOS tubes in my mesa make the amp a LOT more responsive. not in a way a speaker could, and compared to an amp full of gt 12ax7rs.. it's unrecognizable. all the cold brittleness is gone, and it's got a WAY better, thicker feel. it's still the same amp-- it's just got more midbass, more clarity with gain, and more harmonic content. did i swap it back to check? yep. nope..'i'm not deaf or imagining it. and on a daily basis, i use tube amps for listening as well. same deal. a telefunken 12ax7 is a glorious thing, and nothing sounds quite the same. similar-- sure. but they're sure my preference for sound.

 

inasfar as people not hearing a difference outside of a studio.. sure-- there's a lot of deaf guitarists out there who couldn't tell the difference between a les paul through an orange and a squier tele throught a jc120. hell.. line6 cashes in on that. that's saying NOTHING of value, and is an embarrassing statement that only an engineer could have generated. yep-- 2 identically spec'd 12ax7's will work. as will 2 identical length cables. in theory, any 2 guitar'sll also create the same tones. but they don't. it's not magic.. but there ARE differences in production and materials that make substantial differences in sound.

 

some folks may be using amps with such high gain that those differences are obliterated-- that's a far different thing than saying 'NOS is a farce'. of COURSE the circuit makes a difference! but for those folks NOT driving their sounds into necessitating noise gates, there are a LOT of gains to be made by having really well made tubes from an era where high quality tubes were prized a LOT more than they are now in an era where the defacto standard for sound is the mp3 and chip amps!

[Teleplayer]

i'm not really sure why you'd say this-- the 'specs' of tubes are fairly constant, as they were created for specific purposes out of reference manuals FOR tube design. it's not as if 'modern' tube amps are designed around different specification tubes- the specs of modern tubes are roughly the same, they're just made cheaper. a 12ax7's amplification specs are still roughly the same as they were in the 50's....

 

 

Believe this or not, but not all tubes that were manufactured were not of the 12AX7/12AT7/12AY7/5751 and 6L6/EL34/EL84/6V6/6550/5881 power and preamp variety that are usable in guitar amps. There are tons of other types of circuits and tubes that were designed and manufatured for industrial and military efforts - that could never be used in a guitar amplifier circuit.

 

[ProjectBert]

I had a Carlton Camel 112 combo untill recently and when I switched 2 preamp tubes it made A HUGE difference, I went from bluesy to almost a slayer sound on my distortion So u know it can make a difference big time and I'm not even a veteran in engineering or whatever, I had 2 gigs, on bass -_-.

[ravelm3nt]

It may be that Orange amps are the type that are greatly effected by different tubes. My old Rocker 50 sounded very different when I swapped the EH 6V6's for JJ's.

[Teleplayer]

 

....musikazoo isn't full of {censored} here-- i've experienced THE EXACT same transformation in my mesas, as well as multiple hifi amps, and it's easy to scoff if you don't want to spend the money up front. just say 'i don't want to spend the money'- if that's the case-- fully understandable. but when people say 'NOS is CRAP' or 'speaker changes are bigger changes'.. you're kinda missing the point. SURE-- a speaker change WILL make a huge dif-- but there are changes in feel and response that a speaker won't do. a circuit with 'traction' does make a difference that isn't a placebo. in order of magnitude-- NOS tubes in my mesa make the amp a LOT more responsive. not in a way a speaker could, and compared to an amp full of gt 12ax7rs.. it's unrecognizable. all the cold brittleness is gone, and it's got a WAY better, thicker feel. it's still the same amp-- it's just got more midbass, more clarity with gain, and more harmonic content. did i swap it back to check? yep. nope..'i'm not deaf or imagining it. and on a daily basis, i use tube amps for listening as well. same deal. a telefunken 12ax7 is a glorious thing, and nothing sounds quite the same. similar-- sure. but they're sure my preference for sound. inasfar as people not hearing a difference outside of a studio.. sure-- there's a lot of deaf guitarists out there who couldn't tell the difference between a les paul through an orange and a squier tele throught a jc120. hell.. line6 cashes in on that. that's saying NOTHING of value, and is an embarrassing statement that only an engineer could have generated. yep-- 2 identically spec'd 12ax7's will work. as will 2 identical length cables. in theory, any 2 guitar'sll also create the same tones. but they don't. it's not magic.. but there ARE differences in production and materials that make substantial differences in sound. some folks may be using amps with such high gain that those differences are obliterated-- that's a far different thing than saying 'NOS is a farce'. of COURSE the circuit makes a difference! but for those folks NOT driving their sounds into necessitating noise gates, there are a LOT of gains to be made by having really well made tubes from an era where high quality tubes were prized a LOT more than they are now in an era where the defacto standard for sound is the mp3 and chip amps!

 

 

Let's go point by point, since you are making a ton of inferences and giant assumptions from my original post.

 

First off, I never said the OP is full of anything. I was merely pointing out what I have gleaned from many hours of discussions with top tube shops and one of the absolute top tube amp builders around today.

 

Next, I never said anything about not wanting - or being able to - spend the money. I make enough dough to be able to buy a literal ton of NOS tubes if I so desired. No big deal. I have a fair share of NOS tubes.

 

Regarding the difference NOS tubes make in your amp - can you explain what you hear as the difference in the midst of a band mix on stage in a live setting? As an example, when you gig a raised stage with a 5,000 watt FOH sound system, 2,500 watt monitor mix, and 400-500 people in the crowd listening/drinking/talking, what are the main differences you hear between your NOS tubes and newer production tubes?

 

Re: deaf guitarists - it has nothing to do with deaf guitarsists. And I never said there was no difference between NOS and new-production tubes. There is -- especially in the studio and with circuits that are relatively low-to-medium gain. Discuss this topic with any reputable tube shop or amp manufacturer and you will hear the same thing.

 

Regarding the sound of Telefunkens and nothing else sounding the same (your thoughts above, not mine) - some Teles are great tubes. But so are some Amperex, some Brimars, some Mullards, some Mazdas, some GEs, some RCAs, some Philips (Holland) and on and on. You may dig Telefunkens, while others dig Amperexes. Depends on the circuit, player and position (i.e., V1, V2, etc.) the tube is being placed in -- in addition to many other variables. Saying one tube is "better" than the other is like saying a certain amp or guitar is "better" than another. It's all subjective and there are no absolutes here.

 

Regarding the gains to be made from really well made tubes - NOS tubes were simply made "as is" back in their era. There was no specialization in the way they were made. It was the standards of the day. Are they made better than tubes manufactured today - for the most part yes. However, there are also some pretty good tubes being produced today as well.

[Stevenexp]

TS is obvious troll...