Members newholland Posted November 12, 2008 Members Share Posted November 12, 2008 {censored}. i just played a bad cat hot cat 15 on friday. played it through the preamp. did not like. plugged into the 'clean' input-- one stage and the power amp? beautiful! perfect crystalline cleanliness.. amazing! i've been working on cleaning up my mesa .22 for a year now.. never been quite happy with it- not horribly.. but enough.. and i couldn't quite pin it down-- just too much slop, too much crud from somewhere. just not enough snap. so i thought about it. how do i cut out the front end of my damn amp? well.. plug in the FX return. SO-- i put an mxr micro amp out front-- run it hot as i like, and use the volume knob on an LP. i set up the neck pickup with the volume way down, and eq the thing with the 5 band on the thing. nothing works on the preamp but the master volume, the eq, and the presence knob. PERFECT.. i totally just lost 15 pounds of bad sound by bypassing the entire front end of my mesa! now, it's basically a power amp with a 5 band eq and a volume knob! i've tried it with a tube driver (3 band eq, drive and volume)-- nice mix as well.. softer than the micro amp.. but still very nice. wow-- what a revelation! if you ever want to hear how much damage your preamp does to your tone... try it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 17 Tubes Posted November 12, 2008 Members Share Posted November 12, 2008 I TOTALLY disagree. I just can;t believe the Bad Cat has a horrible preamp. But do what you must. I pretty much EXCLUSIVELY use outboard preamps/"modellers"(it's a preamp). 99.9% of H-CAF thinks there's some law you have to tap into the FX loop/poweramp in with an outboard preamp. But, I have found MOST of the time, using the amps preamp allows me more flexibility. It's like having post controls built in. I might keep the channel gain down low, eq's low. Or I might keep my preamp output low and CRANK the amp pre andpoweramp section. I can make slight EQ adjustments, rather than mess with preamp presets. I am not saying i NEVER plug into the loop/poweramp in. But most often I do. It's been proven with more than several amps and preamps. As usual...ALWAYS do what you think best. But remeber, always be willing to be objective. Change for the sake of change isn't always for the better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thinkpad20 Posted November 12, 2008 Members Share Posted November 12, 2008 I plugged direct into my Mark IV FX return. One of the best clean tones I've heard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sirlimecat Posted November 12, 2008 Members Share Posted November 12, 2008 how loud is it plugging into your fx loop? i plugged an mp3 player into my 6505 loop and it was WAY TO LOUD Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members newholland Posted November 12, 2008 Author Members Share Posted November 12, 2008 I TOTALLY disagree. I just can;t believe the Bad Cat has a horrible preamp. But do what you must.I pretty much EXCLUSIVELY use outboard preamps/"modellers"(it's a preamp). 99.9% of H-CAF thinks there's some law you have to tap into the FX loop/poweramp in with an outboard preamp. But, I have found MOST of the time, using the amps preamp allows me more flexibility. It's like having post controls built in. I might keep the channel gain down low, eq's low. Or I might keep my preamp output low and CRANK the amp pre andpoweramp section. I can make slight EQ adjustments, rather than mess with preamp presets. I am not saying i NEVER plug into the loop/poweramp in. But most often I do. It's been proven with more than several amps and preamps. meanwhile-- can't say that the badcat was BAD-- it just sounded bad by comparison to the direct line into the power amp to ME-- i couldn't get a really good sound out of the badcat's pre..As usual...ALWAYS do what you think best. But remeber, always be willing to be objective. Change for the sake of change isn't always for the better. what's to disagree with? i can only say that the simpicity of one preamp tube, and no eq really 'lifted the blanket' on this amp. it's not that it's BAD, per se, just not what i WANT.. which is something a lot more nimble and fast. sans pre, the thing speaks a lot more freely-- and i get the sound i want via strings/pickup/playing... so all i need is an overdrive to put me where i want.. sides, all i use the eq for is to roll back a little bass and roll up a little treble.. easy peasy for the eq, minus the 'interactivity' of the mesa circuit. can't say it'd work with every amp.. but it sure does with this one! 'sides.. i don't use any FX whatsoever... just pretty much straight gain... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members newholland Posted November 12, 2008 Author Members Share Posted November 12, 2008 how loud is it plugging into your fx loop? i plugged an mp3 player into my 6505 loop and it was WAY TO LOUD it was a scoch quieter than running where i was on the preamp set at 3ish.. but with the micro amp in front, same. coulda been the signal off of the mp3 player was set too loud? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sirlimecat Posted November 12, 2008 Members Share Posted November 12, 2008 it was a scoch quieter than running where i was on the preamp set at 3ish.. but with the micro amp in front, same. coulda been the signal off of the mp3 player was set too loud? it was pretty low, lower than my guitar, sometimes i play straight into this speaker/sub system with m guitar, but it scared the {censored} out of me, im to much of a woman to try my guitar through it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members newholland Posted November 12, 2008 Author Members Share Posted November 12, 2008 it was pretty low, lower than my guitar, sometimes i play straight into this speaker/sub system with m guitar, but it scared the {censored} out of me, im to much of a woman to try my guitar through it why man? hell.. i plugged straight in-- worked as well as plugging into the front end-- just no gain! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Sardocasm Posted November 12, 2008 Members Share Posted November 12, 2008 I liked the preamp of the Hot Cat 30 I had. I never tried the 15, though. I'm not a huge fan of el84s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members newholland Posted November 12, 2008 Author Members Share Posted November 12, 2008 I liked the preamp of the Hot Cat 30 I had. I never tried the 15, though. I'm not a huge fan of el84s. just curious-- did you find it kinda buzzy and NON-tubey sounding? i'm a little puzzled as to how they sound.. they've got almost a fuzz-type distortion i can't quite jive with. 84s're definitely middly and not super bottom heavy... but it's more the whole amp than just the tube! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Sardocasm Posted November 12, 2008 Members Share Posted November 12, 2008 No, it wasn't buzzy or non-tube sounding. The only gripes I had with it really was that it could get incredibly bright and paired with the Eminence GB12s I had in my 412 cab, it gave me severe ear fatigue. It sounded a lot better and didn't give the same ear strain when paired up with the V30s in my Avatar 212. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sirlimecat Posted November 13, 2008 Members Share Posted November 13, 2008 why man? hell.. i plugged straight in-- worked as well as plugging into the front end-- just no gain! shh my map will hear you, you;ll make it angry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OverDriven Posted November 13, 2008 Members Share Posted November 13, 2008 I plugged direct into my Mark IV FX return. One of the best clean tones I've heard. I just tried this, but it sounds really dull and lifeless with no top end. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members newholland Posted November 13, 2008 Author Members Share Posted November 13, 2008 I just tried this, but it sounds really dull and lifeless with no top end. try using a booster or gain pedal out front-- basically supplanting the preamp. it works better with my amp with a clean boost on than off, but still pretty good cleans.. but i use low output p/u's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 17 Tubes Posted November 13, 2008 Members Share Posted November 13, 2008 try using a booster or gain pedal out front-- basically supplanting the preamp. it works better with my amp with a clean boost on than off, but still pretty good cleans.. but i use low output p/u's Wait.... YOu use any bull{censored} pedal as your preamp, but not a Bad Cat built in preamp. Look...sorry, but I think you have the wrong amp. You need to SERIOUSLY rethink where you stand on your amp. You could get inNUMERABLE sounds off ANY other set up. The Marshall JMP-1, the Peavey rack preamp, the AWESOME Rocktron stuff...plus a cool VHT/MESA/Rocktron poweramp It doesn't make ANY sense (to me) to use a fine amp like Bad Cat and totally HATE the amp based on it's preamp. Sorry dude..it doesn't make ANY sense. There's too much gear out there for this. But...it's just my opinion and you have to find what works for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thinkpad20 Posted November 13, 2008 Members Share Posted November 13, 2008 I just tried this, but it sounds really dull and lifeless with no top end. It probably depends on the guitar, as with many things Mesa (I don't remember which guitar I used, but probably my Parker which generally has a fantastic clean tone anyway). And yeah, you can use the GEQ since it's post-loop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Zozobra Posted November 13, 2008 Members Share Posted November 13, 2008 Never tried it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members newholland Posted November 13, 2008 Author Members Share Posted November 13, 2008 Wait....YOu use any bull{censored} pedal as your preamp, but not a Bad Cat built in preamp. Look...sorry, but I think you have the wrong amp. You need to SERIOUSLY rethink where you stand on your amp. You could get inNUMERABLE sounds off ANY other set up. The Marshall JMP-1, the Peavey rack preamp, the AWESOME Rocktron stuff...plus a cool VHT/MESA/Rocktron poweramp It doesn't make ANY sense (to me) to use a fine amp like Bad Cat and totally HATE the amp based on it's preamp. Sorry dude..it doesn't make ANY sense. There's too much gear out there for this. But...it's just my opinion and you have to find what works for you. i'm not saying that it IS the right amp- clearly, it's not if i'm bypassing EVERYTHING that constitutes it's preamp. i was discussing the EFFECT of what i did, mr. contrary, nothing more. i'm not telling anybody to go out and drop their highgainer, pedalboar, or amps frontside on the curb. for {censored}s sake, francis, lighten up. and clearly the bad cat has the same said effect. SO-- since this appears to be the case, yep-- an amp with practically NO or a minimal preamp section (e.g a dr.z etc) DOES appear to be the best fit. i'm glad you figured that out for me in such a paternalistic and condescending manner. unfortunately, i'd already figured that out, but thanks anyhow. good lord man- everything is NOT a personal affront to you. the effect of circumventing your preamp with a simple boost pedal set to unity is hardly 'using any bull{censored} pedall'-- but acting as a full gain preamp IN LIEU OF your preamp. of COURSE you'll end up with different effects based on the quality of the pedal. it's to illustrate an EFFECT, not to create a be all end all. and yeah-- i didn't like the badcat preamp. haven't liked them much, but that's neither here nor there. its merely taste. carry on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 17 Tubes Posted November 13, 2008 Members Share Posted November 13, 2008 Dude...you are reading too much into my post. You are doing the EXACT same thing you are accusing ME of doing. I have already said do what you must. But you have taken such a personal affront to me saying you bought the wrong amp. What is so WRONG with me saying that? Well whats wrong is you are being too defensive, that's what. Gosh...let me buy this big expensive amp, bypass half the amp, complain about it on the message board, have someone tell me I bought the wrong amp then get pissed about it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members code_blue Posted November 13, 2008 Members Share Posted November 13, 2008 Stop abusing your amp settings! lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members newholland Posted November 13, 2008 Author Members Share Posted November 13, 2008 Dude...you are reading too much into my post. You are doing the EXACT same thing you are accusing ME of doing. I have already said do what you must. But you have taken such a personal affront to me saying you bought the wrong amp. What is so WRONG with me saying that? Well whats wrong is you are being too defensive, that's what. Gosh...let me buy this big expensive amp, bypass half the amp, complain about it on the message board, have someone tell me I bought the wrong amp then get pissed about it. what big expensive amp? i play a mesa i bought for $400? i don't OWN a bad cat.. i played one in a store. it was what inspired me to bypass the pre, as it's an ONBOARD front panel option on the amp. all i'm doing is saying 'look at what happened when i bypassed my pre, very much the same way you would on the bad cat. i found mine doing more damage than good with MY amp.' nothing more nothing less. much in the same way as i felt it did with the bad cat. which is not mine. then you basically lectured me on the fact that a) you disagree, to what, i haven't figured out yet, as what i said was 'look what happened when i did x'. b) that i was somehow condoning the use of any random pedal as a preamp (not so) c) that i clearly have the wrong amp and need to rethink something that i have quite often done, which is that there's better fits sonically, and d) that the whole kit and kaboodle was somehow beneath you, as there's obviously better ways to skin a cat. man- i get it. it's not optimal-- it just IS the amp i have, and this emulates the same effect, for the very simple reason that it's the same sorta configuration, with an eq in the way, which happens to work well in this instance. i'm not disagreeing that it's a cobbed solution. but it's an interesting effect nonetheless, and very MUCH a stopgap before going with something way better LIKE a dr.z with a simpler tone circuit. i haven't got any interest in ARGUING.. but at the same time-- thats how you started the interchange. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chuckgp Posted November 13, 2008 Members Share Posted November 13, 2008 Shit dude one of the reasons I love my BadCat MiniCat is the preamp! I went through a lot of amps with beautiful clean tones, but the lead channels were...kinda... "buzzy and NON-tubey sounding" -- well-known highly-regarded amp expert. Definitely the best preamp I've ever heard for anything from clean to heavy. I'm a big Boogie fan too, but now I just use my '82 Fender Super Champ Boogie Killer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members newholland Posted November 13, 2008 Author Members Share Posted November 13, 2008 Shit dude one of the reasons I love my BadCat MiniCat is the preamp! I went through a lot of amps with beautiful clean tones, but the lead channels were...kinda... "buzzy and NON-tubey sounding" -- well-known highly-regarded amp expert. Definitely the best preamp I've ever heard for anything from clean to heavy. I'm a big Boogie fan too, but now I just use my '82 Fender Super Champ Boogie Killer. aw, that's cool chuck.. i'm a fusspot when stuff gets 'too granular' sounding.. a lotta folks dig that sound a lot! that same reason's been the demise of a lotta pedals and speakers for me, but clean.. god DAMN is that a gorgeous amp! no offense meant to bad cat lovers- just didn't suit me! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 17 Tubes Posted November 13, 2008 Members Share Posted November 13, 2008 what big expensive amp? i play a mesa i bought for $400? i don't OWN a bad cat.. i played one in a store. it was what inspired me to bypass the pre, as it's an ONBOARD front panel option on the amp. all i'm doing is saying 'look at what happened when i bypassed my pre, very much the same way you would on the bad cat. i found mine doing more damage than good with MY amp.' nothing more nothing less. much in the same way as i felt it did with the bad cat. which is not mine.then you basically lectured me on the fact that a) you disagree, to what, i haven't figured out yet, as what i said was 'look what happened when i did x'. b) that i was somehow condoning the use of any random pedal as a preamp (not so) c) that i clearly have the wrong amp and need to rethink something that i have quite often done, which is that there's better fits sonically, and d) that the whole kit and kaboodle was somehow beneath you, as there's obviously better ways to skin a cat.man- i get it. it's not optimal-- it just IS the amp i have, and this emulates the same effect, for the very simple reason that it's the same sorta configuration, with an eq in the way, which happens to work well in this instance.i'm not disagreeing that it's a cobbed solution. but it's an interesting effect nonetheless, and very MUCH a stopgap before going with something way better LIKE a dr.z with a simpler tone circuit. i haven't got any interest in ARGUING.. but at the same time-- thats how you started the interchange. Okay. I get you now. I'm sorry I misunderstood. I'm the dumb{censored}. I thought you actually gave the amp a real chance. You played it at the store and were judge jury and executioner. Sorry. This is TOTALLY my fault. Really. I am sorry. I am glad..however, that you are forthcoming with more detail. The more one "argues" with you, the more info one can get. Then of course you bitch at the guy that can't read your mind. One thing I said at least 2 or 3 times, is do what you want. However...since you did all this at the store...You know....I can't really honor your opinion at all. But that is just me, and you are still cool in my book. I just don't give reviews out of the store all that much credibility...and I really should have been smart enough to have seen that from the begining. Sorry...really my bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members chuckgp Posted November 13, 2008 Members Share Posted November 13, 2008 aw, that's cool chuck.. i'm a fusspot when stuff gets 'too granular' sounding.. a lotta folks dig that sound a lot! that same reason's been the demise of a lotta pedals and speakers for me, but clean.. god DAMN is that a gorgeous amp!no offense meant to bad cat lovers- just didn't suit me! HISSSSSSS!!SPIT-HIsssssSSSSSS!!!:poke: Oh, I must be like, totally granular dude, cause I have the BadCat X-Treme tone pedal in front of it(The Feral Kitten rig). Of course I run a NOS Tungsram EL-84 and Mullard 12AX7s exclusively in this amp/pedal combo. The clean is definitely to die for. My VHT PittBull45 had the same tone nearly when I run the amp in 'Class A':facepalm: mode. You might try one of those, its more of a Hiwatt meets Marshall lead channel, IMO, combined with the killer clean. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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