The story behind EVERYONE WANTS TO RULE THE WORLD'S off pitch mastering?

[dinnerpianist]

I play the tune in Eflat and sometimes E major. Was it a band or producer decision to tamper with tempo during mastering? If it had been written in E major then the tempo was slowed (tempo alteration with no impact on pitch wasn't a sure thing in the mid 80s as it is today of course). Maybe the band tuned down for the track but didn't quite match a true Eflat. Keys do matter not just tempo when considering the mood and impact on a listener

[blue2blue]

Well... I can't tell you the answer to your question -- and behind-the-sessions backchat is really rather beyond the rather narrow scope of the Songwriting Forum, but it does raise the old question of the importance of both the relative relationships of harmony as well as the real -- but extremely hard to pin down -- effect of pitch on the music informed by those relationships.

 

Of course, for those of us who sing, and particularly those of us who are self-trained -- and therefore, possibly, somewhat less flexible than our formally trained and well-practiced singing brethren -- the placing of a given work at a given pitch can mean the difference between being able to comfortably sing a given work and not.

 

But it also raises the old issue of just how much absolute pitch affects our interpretation and appreciation of music.

 

A given work, transposed a half step or two, is mostly the same piece. But our impression of it may well be shifted. But when it's transposed up or down by a fifth or so -- the effects can be quite noticeable... if still somewhat hard to define.

[dinnerpianist]

Duly noted -your comment about timbre and key and transposition. Sting and Henley know the cheap trick of singing on the edge to imply urgency even if the tune doesn't merit it. They get away with it but Michael Bolton isn't given a pass on his overwrought earnestness even though he has written some appealing songs (to the hairdresser set of course)

A semi-tone up or down for a vocalist is rarely a challenge but for an instrumentalist/accompanist some keys are not as friendly as others for certain stylings where grace notes and slides are heavily used.

Vocal tics and quirks are often the most potent and appealing draw of a recorded vocal -I digress. Still no one has any curiosity about decisions to slow or speed up tunes for better affect in the post production stage?

[eddieboston2]

I don't know about that song. Maybe they just didn't have an electronic tuner handy.

 

I have found that no matter how well written a song, or how experienced the vocalist, if you play it at double speed they always sound like a chipmunk.

[dinnerpianist]

If you played the cassette, LP, CD, or wax cynlinder at double speed and used a Lexicon time shifter or Roland Variphrase it would sound at pitch but be at double the tempo. The early Lexicon was $12K and was used for radio spots to hasten an advertisement pitch (pun) without elevating the pitch.

[rsadasiv]

Lots of older tunes did this in the mastering stage - they used to call in "tightening things up". I'm pretty sure Layla is also sped up to the point where the pitch on the record it is about halfway between semitones.

[blue2blue]

 

Lots of older tunes did this in the mastering stage - they used to call in "tightening things up". I'm pretty sure Layla is also sped up to the point where the pitch on the record it is about halfway between semitones.

 

This is certainly the case.

 

When I was in school in the early 80s, varispeed was a commonly discussed option. It was certainly used on some projects I was involved with. FWIW, I think I only heard of one person actually slowing things down,though. Slapping electronic pitch-shifting on in that era was pretty much a no-go for music, though. The artifacts were too nasty. Still, that didn't keep people from occasionally retuning a syllable or note or two every once in a great while with either a digital box or via a varispeed bounce (I've been party to both -- the varispeed bounce is a PITA).

 

Maybe it's just me remembering long ago events this a.m., but now that I've had a chance to cogitate on this, it seems like I actually recall someone discussing the very song in the OP back then as a possible example of 'tightening up.' (Although we didn't necessarily call it that, but I certainly heard it called that.)

[Boydog]

another good example I think is "The Highway Song" by Blackfoot.

[dinnerpianist]

When students at Wyncote Academy want to jam with their CDs and even downloaded stuff I encourage them to burn a CD just in case the piece being studied is not at concert pitch. Of course when the Ipod gets around to it there will be pitch correction. We should make a list of what may have been just sloppy tuneup or deliberate afterthought. No Woman No Cry? Geez, do they tune to a referenced quarter tone in Jamaica? I've heard the organ intro to LIGHT MY FIRE floating within a major second either way from all the compilations. I doubt Manzarek could play it in Gflat. EVERYBODY WANTS TO RULE THE WORLD has some editing seams showing and the vamp at the beginning is quite odd in that I think something was clipped. Some of the synth lines were probably flown in by session guys. Well, thanks to all who responded. I had access to that $12k Lexicon time shifter I think in late 70s. It was usually a rental item. No artifacts whatsoever but sometimes the two 24 tracks units weren't running in sync. I'm sure glad that era is over. Songwriters today don't have to hassle with balky and bulky multi track tape stuff. I've been in the business since '67 with a two year hiatus as pianist for the Army and I've seen marriages fold because the equipment demands were punishing. Again thanks.

[samtrips]

I seem to remember having difficulty playing along to The Rolling Stones 'Beggars Banquet' in concert pitch, think it is a little out one way or another.

[dinnerpianist]

Wasn't that the era where bands like the Stones were recording bits and pieces of various songs and productions at chic chateaus and glitzy studios and then some poor bastard had to take 100 reels of 2 inch tape and somehow make an "album" out of the material? Dolby test tones, sync tones etc etc. Alligning of the overdubs would have been a nightmare. It is probably amazing anything matches at all let alone match concert pitch.

But getting back to the Tears for Fears tune- my guess is that the recorded tempo was reconsidered and the machine was most likely slowed down. It was such an odd hit with the triplet feel. I think slowing it down gave the tune a very gravis vibe.

Another thing- guys who may have been called to overdub stuff on keys would have asked for the tracks to be brought into concert pitch before overlaying I know I would have. It was easy to tune electronic keyboards and synths to off pitch tracks but with some analogue gear most session guys would prefer to keep their equipment in perfect tune and ask the engineer to tune the tracks to concert pitch.

[Stackabones]

Actually a half-step or step up or down can be important to experienced & trained singers. Everyone has a tessitura.

[dinnerpianist]

Because pop songs are malleable (and that is the best aspect) each performer can adjust the melodic curve to suit one's range. A good pop song (not tune) has negotiable tones all over the place and if one can't quite dip low enough one can come up with satisfying solutions. Of course trying to muster the range of a tune like THE WORLD WE KNEW (which isn't really a song but a tune with words) you'd better plan ahead.

[Stackabones]

Because pop songs are malleable (and that is the best aspect) each performer can adjust the melodic curve to suit one's range. A good pop song (not tune) has negotiable tones all over the place and if one can't quite dip low enough one can come up with satisfying solutions.

 

Not really sure by what you mean by adjusting? Transposing, perhaps?

 

As far as negotiable tones, I think that if you sing some clams on the low or high end of the song's range, an audience will notice. What satisifying solutions would a singer come up for something like "Friends in Low Places" or "Folsom Prison Blues"? Both have low sections that are important in the tune.

[rsadasiv]

You know, we haven't had an equal tempered tuning discussion in a while

[blue2blue]

[ears perk up at mention of 12TET / Just Intonation issues... can Auto-Tune be far behind...?]

 

 

...

[rsadasiv]

...

 

Settle down Beavis ....

[kennychaffin]

You know, we haven't had an equal tempered tuning discussion in a while

 

Run AWAY!

 

I just had one of "those" on another forum recently!

 

But it also involved piano keyboard layout....

[Main Offender]

I'm going to throw my hat in here, and say the reason I think some of these older recordings don't sound tuned to true concert pitch was due to someone tuning the guitar by ear. Then, everyone else tuned to that guitar. However, the guitar strings were in tune right to EACH OTHER, but a little flat or sharp, but when everyone else tuned to that offset "standard", it was all in tune. Then, someone vari-speeded the tapes, or the reels ran a bit slow during mixing for whatever reason, etc, and these wacky quarter-tone tunings were created.....At least that's my guess....

[blue2blue]

Run AWAY! I just had one of "those" on another forum recently! But it also involved piano keyboard layout....

 

12TET is a necessary bargain with the devil.

 

Although digital synth players do have some dynamic intonation options... but, there, again, you end up compromising -- you just make smaller compromises and continually readjust them to be closer to true harmony as the harmonic center modulates. Dynamic intonation hasn't exactly bowled over the keyboard world, I'm afraid.

 

But in my experience many keyboardists are utterly incredulous if you talk to them about how conventional keyboards (and straight fretting on conventional guitars, for that matter) are always out of tune... I've had people tell me flat out I was crazy.

[blue2blue]

 

I'm going to throw my hat in here, and say the reason I think some of these older recordings don't sound tuned to true concert pitch was due to someone tuning the guitar by ear. Then, everyone else tuned to that guitar. However, the guitar strings were in tune right to EACH OTHER, but a little flat or sharp, but when everyone else tuned to that offset "standard", it was all in tune. Then, someone vari-speeded the tapes, or the reels ran a bit slow during mixing for whatever reason, etc, and these wacky quarter-tone tunings were created.....At least that's my guess....

 

 

It's like Indonesian gamalan (the melodic communal drumming that has spiritual and social significance). Each village tunes to their own pitch, traditionally. So if you're a gamalan player and you travel to another town, you can't normally play your own instrument. And, I'm not sure if I remember clearly, but I think there's seen to be a special connection between the player and the drum, so jumping on someone else's axe isn't exactly the norm.

 

But, hell, this forum is such a globe-trotting spread out lot, maybe one of you all has some more direct gamalan experience. I only picked up what little I know from a band mate in my old band Walk on Fire, ethnomusicologist Loren Nerell. WoF didn't seem to rate inclusion on Loren's Wikipedia page and I gotta tell you, I'm crushed. But I think you have to sell some records to become an actual Wikipedia item... or play some shows. (Actually, it's really quite rigorous as I keep telling a few friends of mine. Getting a Wikipedia page (and keeping it) is a lot trickier than you'd probalby think.)

[dinnerpianist]

Many piano modules do have a few tunings besides WT. One sample set tuned to "ensemble" in the MicroPiano made it possible to work with traditional vibraharpists. Most savvy pianists knew chording voicings and unison would produce problems. A savvy french horn player when asked to give an A will respond with, "Which one?". Keyboardists rarely understand that good players will tweak their tone by a few cents. Is the person asking for the leading tone to Bflat or the minor sixth type A.

Gary Burton can bend the pitch slightly on the traditional vibraphone evidently by adding to the mass of the bar which would flatten it I assume. He had one mallet out of his three or four with a brass head and pressed it firmly to the bar and then used his regular yarn head to strike the bar. If that is true that is quite ingenious. Clever guy!