Members rlm297 Posted June 21, 2011 Members Share Posted June 21, 2011 I've noticed I always get in the rut of writing descending or monotone lines for songs. It's not a problem for the song itself, but when I listen to recordings it just sounds like of stale. When I look at some of the bands I'm into, it seems their first albums have great hooks and melodies, but their newer albums are not only part of the "loudness war," but their chorus melodies are kind of lazy and the same as the last. How can a songwriter generate new melodies, short of ripping off someone else's melody and changing it a tad? I usually write music first and then try to retrofit my voice and lyrics to it, but it only takes me half the way there. When I write with an acoustic, it seems like I naturally fall into the same old melody or progression. I'm sure this has been discussed before, so maybe someone can give me the main methods they use to break out of a rut. I have ideas for songs and hooks, but the melodies just aren't coming like they used to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rlm297 Posted June 21, 2011 Author Members Share Posted June 21, 2011 Never stop searching for melodies. Alternate tunings and meters keep me experimenting. You really don't need to be trying to break the mold so much as making new ones. You mention bands you like. What attracted you to them and why do you think they've become stale? We're talking about a period of time here from discovery to discovery. In that period your ear has noticed a few things. Better said, your ear has learned a few things. It's now working the same way with your music - melodies - and is listening for you to break out. It's a very insidious, subliminally upward curve that plateaus from time to time and that's when you've stalled. It's also a hint to go in a different direction.I write the same way you do. For me, melody begets melody (lyrical). Words on a piece of paper or screen have never prompted/inspired melodies as satisfying as melodies inspire lyrics. A musical mood is much more weighted than words. Using music to make music is a much more natural way than using words to make music. But, we can stall out. That one stretch of adrenaline highs can leave us sapped. Recovering means walking new paths on the fretboard, so to speak, taking what the ear has learned, the hands have achieved and challenging them to start the search again. It doesn't have to be a complete departure. Progressing is what the ear and hands do only if challenged. I found this very insightful. I have been wondering about how I can take my music in a different direction. To me, music is the sum of all parts working together. I'd either need different instruments other than guitar, drum machine, and bass -or- new influences -or- both. But it's not as simple as it seems, if you want to get on the path of something genuine and legitimate. So, where do you go from there? I know getting a new sound is all relative, but you can't exactly forge a new sound with just a guitar in hand, your voice, and a tape recorder. You'd have to approach recording differently. If you're talking about mood influence, how can you find new influences and take from them and still come off as genuine. Maybe I'm expecting an Andy Kaufman moment, where he asked a monk... "What's the secret to comedy?" and the monk said, "Silence is the secret to comedy." And then the rest was history. Is there anything like that for songwriting and music? I went from recording Ham and Egger KISS style rock song songs to more Queen/Siamese Dream intensively produced stuff and am just kind of lost on how to evolve from there, other than taking the cliche "stripped down" thing. Melodies will come with the music, I'm sure. So maybe this was more about how to mature into a new sound. I've banked a lot of home recordings since 2003. Maybe 60 or 70. But am at this brick wall now and am trying to seek what others sought to power forward. And I have the will to do it, it's just confusing on how to begin. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kurdy Posted June 21, 2011 Members Share Posted June 21, 2011 Good question. Usually I start with the chord changes. Some people might disagree with this approach, because it locks you into a particular structure, but that Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted June 21, 2011 Moderators Share Posted June 21, 2011 Melodies are made up of smaller sections. Some call these motifs. Or motives. A motif's most recognizable trait tends to be the rhythmic figure the melody is based on. Take an old favorite... Happy Birthday "Happy Birthday?!?!?! That's lame!" Well wait, it's a melody that has stood the test of time. Why? The motif's rhythmic figure is reused, repetition, thoughout the short meldoy, but varied by changing the notes over the same rhythmic figure. 1. Happy Birthday to you (think of the rhythm and the notes) 2. Happy Birthday to you (exactly the same rhythmic figure, repetition. But the notes change yet again, variation. Take note of just how small a pitch/note variation does the trick) 3. Happy Birthday (same exact rhythm to this point but the notes change) 4. ...dear Batman (now we've actually repeated the mini rhythmic motif of just Happy Birthday but changed the rhythm slightly and changed to a brand new group of notes and direction) 5. Happy Birthday to you. (Same exact rhythm but yet another group of notes) Repetition and variation. Make sure your nucleus of an idea is a solid motif. Easy once you realize what it is. Think small and grow from there using the basic materials. "Happy Birthday", just that little phrase, is actually a pretty robust rhythmic figure. It's simple but strong. Strong enough to take note variations over and over again to create a memorable tune. Melody. Now take your ideas and distill them down to the strong kernel or nucleus. Find that motif within your material. Try variations while still retaining the rhythmic figure. Add another rhythmic figure. Shake it up into different orders until you get something that is all at once fresh yet familiar. It's not rocket science once you see how things really go together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members stickboymusic Posted June 21, 2011 Members Share Posted June 21, 2011 distill them down to the strong kernel or nucleus. and remember kids....music IS science Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted June 21, 2011 Moderators Share Posted June 21, 2011 and remember kids....music IS science Or ignore everything I wrote if you're firing on all cylinders. I'm not suggesting this is the way to write a melody. I don't. But I notice when I do kick out something I like there tends to be this sort of motif development. So yeah, it sounds dry and Mr Science Guy, but I don't mean that. I mean, if you're stuck. If you're having issues... ...take things apart a little and see how they tick. It won't turn you into a soulless robot. It'll just give you insight into why some things work. Then go forget it all and spew out a melody. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rhino55 Posted June 21, 2011 Members Share Posted June 21, 2011 keep them in the fridge Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rhino55 Posted June 21, 2011 Members Share Posted June 21, 2011 Never stop searching for melodies. Alternate tunings and meters keep me experimenting. You really don't need to be trying to break the mold so much as making new ones. You mention bands you like. What attracted you to them and why do you think they've become stale? We're talking about a period of time here from discovery to discovery. In that period your ear has noticed a few things. Better said, your ear has learned a few things. It's now working the same way with your music - melodies - and is listening for you to break out. It's a very insidious, subliminally upward curve that plateaus from time to time and that's when you've stalled. It's also a hint to go in a different direction.I write the same way you do. For me, melody begets melody (lyrical). Words on a piece of paper or screen have never prompted/inspired melodies as satisfying as melodies inspire lyrics. A musical mood is much more weighted than words. Using music to make music is a much more natural way than using words to make music. But, we can stall out. That one stretch of adrenaline highs can leave us sapped. Recovering means walking new paths on the fretboard, so to speak, taking what the ear has learned, the hands have achieved and challenging them to start the search again. It doesn't have to be a complete departure. Progressing is what the ear and hands do only if challenged. this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Matximus Posted June 21, 2011 Members Share Posted June 21, 2011 How can a songwriter generate new melodies, short of ripping off someone else's melody and changing it a tad?. Most of the best songs are mercenary retreads of older songs; like, straight up. And there is nothing wrong with that. People that think there is, don't understand songwriting. Want to write good melodies? Like most big mysteries, there is absolutely no mystery to this. Be born with natural gift for melody, the more talent you have, the better melodies you'll come up with. And learn a {censored}load of old and new songs in tons of different genres and freely borrow ideas you like. Pick any great popular songwriter; That is the general formula behind their greatness. The good news is that approach does wonders for people with ordinary drive or talent too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LCK Posted June 21, 2011 Members Share Posted June 21, 2011 Random thoughts. One way is to mix up the rhythm. Another is to shift keys a little. Think of "Put Your Records On," by Corinne Bailey Rae. She does both in that song. She starts out kind of smooth and slow: "Three little birds, sat on my window..." then gets more syncopated with "and they told me I don't need to worry..." Then she shifts keys in the bridge, also taking things slow and easy, rhythmically. Then goes back to the original key in the chorus, with a steadier beat. In other words, set a pattern, disrupt it, disrupt it a bit more, then rinse and repeat. Rhythm is probably the most important element of songwriting. Paul Simon said his album Hearts and Bones wasn't successful because he didn't have a groove for the songs on it. If you're writing in the same groove you've written in before, you may find inspiration just by playing around with a new one. Use templates. Everybody does it. The Beatles song, "I Call Your Name" is a rip-off of (or homage to) "Your Cheatin' Heart" by Hank Williams. "Heroes and Villains" (my favorite Brian Wilson song) was based on Gershwin's Rhapsody in Blue. In the golden era of songwriting, everyone was trying to imitate Jerome Kern. Those are some of my random ideas. LCK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bee3 Posted June 21, 2011 Members Share Posted June 21, 2011 Random thoughts. One way is to mix up the rhythm. Another is to shift keys a little.LCK I find that even putting a capo on tends to lead to different ideas. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted June 21, 2011 Members Share Posted June 21, 2011 I find that, for me, the best approach seems to be to not think about melody at all. It tends to take care of itself (or not, as the case may be). When I've got some inspiration, it's usually in the form of a line or two or a subject/feeling I want to explore. Coming up with chord progressions and melodies (not necessarily great ones, mind you) is not something that's ever been a chore. I just hash around until I've got some music that I feel does justice to whatever words I've got -- typically with the sense that if it's not good enough, it will evolve or mutate until I'm happy with it. So, for me, I'm really more focused on trying to come up with some lyric content, as the other stuff tends to just fall into place. (Or what passes for it around here. ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bee3 Posted June 21, 2011 Members Share Posted June 21, 2011 I don't know if I can appropriately contribute to this discussion as I'm still finding my own way. But I'll try... I tend to strum on the guitar or play piano and come up with a progression and a melody at the same time. It always seems to fall into place. I struggle more with my verses than the chorus typically... Lately I've been trying to come up with the verse first to counter that problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Matximus Posted June 21, 2011 Members Share Posted June 21, 2011 And another simple approach I just stumbled on is learning an old standard or forgotten oldie from way back when - like century-old or 80-year-old jazz or big band or spiritual; changing the timing and maybe tweaking a change or two to make the song conform with whatever style it becomes when you play it in a different time. I'm doing this right now with Fats Waller's Ain't Misbehavin, which sounds freaking awesome in whatever style you bend it into. That song is built like a Sherman tank - it works no matter how you do it. I took it from Jazz to a folky/doo whop kinda thing. Took out a couple of those jazz chords to adjust the shading of the chords. I'm avoiding "jack Horner" bit becuse that change just can't be disguised. Soon as I come up with a new lyrical hook I'm good to go. I'm also doing this with an even stranger source; That beautiful and creepy Nine Inch Nails Song "Ringfinger" at the close of Pretty Hate Machine. I love that song. I was working it out and breaking it down the other day and I discovered that if you work out the chords and do it in a finger-picking kinda way, but sped up a bit - that melody works amazingly splendid as a mid-tempo country ballad. NIN's song becomes overly wordy the faster you play it - so the melody takes on a naturally different and stronger shape if you excise about 1/3 of the words, and change the phrasing of the lyrics. And the industrial/techno treatment of the original makes it damn near unrecognizable in a different genre. But the basic competence of that melody shines through no matter what - it's a damn sound song. Trent Reznor is a very, very, very sharp melody writer. He woulda been a success in whatever genre he chose. You can strip down each song on that whole record to just voice and guitar and it's still pure pleasant magic - the sign of true great writing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bee3 Posted June 21, 2011 Members Share Posted June 21, 2011 And another simple approach I just stumbled on is learning an old standard or forgotten oldie from way back when - like century-old or 80-year-old jazz or big band or spiritual; changing the timing and maybe tweaking a change or two to make the song conform with whatever style it becomes when you play it in a different time. I'm doing this right now with Fats Waller's Ain't Misbehavin, which sounds freaking awesome in whatever style you bend it into. That song is built like a Sherman tank - it works no matter how you do it. I took it from Jazz to a folky/doo whop kinda thing. Took out a couple of those jazz chords to adjust the shading of the chords. I'm avoiding "jack Horner" bit becuse that change just can't be disguised. Soon as I come up with a new lyrical hook I'm good to go. I'm also doing this with an even stranger source; That beautiful and creepy Nine Inch Nails Song "Ringfinger" at the close of Pretty Hate Machine. I love that song. I was working it out and breaking it down the other day and I discovered that if you work out the chords and do it in a finger-picking kinda way, but sped up a bit - that melody works amazingly splendid as a mid-tempo country ballad. NIN's song becomes overly wordy the faster you play it - so the melody takes on a naturally different and stronger shape if you excise about 1/3 of the words, and change the phrasing of the lyrics. And the industrial/techno treatment of the original makes it damn near unrecognizable in a different genre. But the basic competence of that melody shines through no matter what - it's a damn sound song. Trent Reznor is a very, very, very sharp melody writer. He woulda been a success in whatever genre he chose. You can strip down each song on that whole record to just voice and guitar and it's still pure pleasant magic - the sign of true great writing. Wow... I don't think I have the patience to do something like this! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LCK Posted June 21, 2011 Members Share Posted June 21, 2011 I find that even putting a capo on tends to lead to different ideas. Me too. LCK It's hard to use a capo if you write on the piano. (Come to think of it, Irving Berlin could only play in C#, so he had a special piano built with -- believe it or not -- capo, so he could changes keys by shifting a lever!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bee3 Posted June 21, 2011 Members Share Posted June 21, 2011 Me too.LCKIt's hard to use a capo if you write on the piano. (Come to think of it, Irving Berlin could only play in C#, so he had a special piano built with -- believe it or not -- capo, so he could changes keys by shifting a lever!) I don't think I've EVER played in C#. Too many black keys... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rlm297 Posted June 21, 2011 Author Members Share Posted June 21, 2011 In other words, set a pattern, disrupt it, disrupt it a bit more, then rinse and repeat. This makes sense. I'm going to try that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LCK Posted June 21, 2011 Members Share Posted June 21, 2011 I don't think I've EVER played in C#. Too many black keys... I know, it's crazy, huh? But for some reason that was the only way Irving Berlin could play piano. He felt it was the easiest key! LCK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members honeyiscool Posted June 22, 2011 Members Share Posted June 22, 2011 Pianists don't call it C#. We call it D flat, and it's actually one of the most comfortable keys to play fast in because the black keys help you with arpeggios and stuff like that. Even if you lose your relative position for a couple of notes, you can easily find your keys again. It's actually quite difficult to play fast arpeggios and scales in C major because your hands can easily lose their relative position and then you lose the entire run. B major is also super comfortable because the major scale follows the shape of your hand quite nicely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LCK Posted June 22, 2011 Members Share Posted June 22, 2011 Pianists don't call it C#. I'm no expert, but one of my favorite pieces of music is Valse in "C# Minor" by Chopin. [video=youtube;4C-oiN_KDD0] But then again, the piece wasn't written in C# major. LCK Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted June 22, 2011 Moderators Share Posted June 22, 2011 You guys think I'm finicky? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members honeyiscool Posted June 24, 2011 Members Share Posted June 24, 2011 C# minor but I thought we were talking about D flat major. C#m only has three sharps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tbry Posted June 24, 2011 Members Share Posted June 24, 2011 Want better melodies...listen to stickboy music and do that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members donmak Posted June 26, 2011 Members Share Posted June 26, 2011 One way is to deliberately use notes not in the chord progression. This can often open up unique melody ideas (article) My favorite is to use the same chord progression for the melody and verse, which forces you (i.e. me) to change the melody line so the chorus and verse are clearly defined. I do it like this. Those are a couple good ways. Hope that helps! DM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.