More questions on OM's and OOO'S. What are the real differences?

[LDF]

I was just on Martins site looking at the OM-21 (which I will soon have) and the 000-28. I noticed that there is not much difference in price even though the 000-28 has all the appointments of an OM-28 (which has a list price of a $1,000 more). The only real difference between the OM-28 and the 000-28 aside from nut width and a few minor things is the bracing pattern. As far as I can tell, this is the only thing that makes the OM models comparatively more expensive than the 000's.

 

So my question is; what is it about om bracing that makes it so much more expensive, also what makes them different tonally? Or is it the bracings at all???

 

I'm just trying to find out the fundamental differences that make one more expensive than the other. I know this has been discussed before, but I need more info. Hopefully with your help I can put the issue to rest.

 

Merci Mille Fois...

[Danocoustic]

Traditionally, 000s had a shorter scale length and 12 fret necks, while OMs had the longer scale length and 14 fret necks.

 

Those distinctions have become blurred in more modern times.

[solitaire]

There's a thread on the Unofficial Martin Forum that sort this out.

 

Danocoustic is right in a way. When the 000 was originally designed by Martin it had a 12-frets to the body, as did all guitars at the time. By the late 1920s, a Banjo player I've forgot the name of (see the Martin Story at www.mguitars.com) asked Martin to build a guitar with a longer neck to enable him to switch from one instrument to the other.

 

The 14-fret 000 was born, and it was dubbed Orchestra Model. At this point guitars of this size all had 25.4" scales and 1.75" width at the nut. The remakes of these still have the same length and width as their originals.

 

I'm a bit in the dark when the shortscale OM/ contemporary 14-fret 000 was introduced, but the fact the Eric Clapton is considered a Vintage series instrument with herringbone purfling would suggest it's a P/W instrument. Note it still retained the 1.75" wide neck.

 

Today most 14-fret 000s have the narrower 1 11/16" wide neck and the shortscale/ 24.9" scale, except for the 16 series and lower that have longscale/ 25.4" scale necks.

[JasmineTea]

I clicked around at that link, but did'nt find anything that seemed useful.(mabey just me)

[solitaire]

Originally posted by JasmineTea I clicked around at that link, but did'nt find anything that seemed useful.(mabey just me)

The Martin webmaste has made a mess of things on the Martin homepage. You should click on any of the available buttons in the second index pages. www.mguitars.com > enter > any button > catalogues and downloads > Martin story

[54merk]

There are many differences between these two guitars. Let's start with price. The OM21 lists for $2399 and the 00028 for $2749. OK, not a $1000 difference, only $250.

 

The OM uses scalloped 1/4" braces, which add some cost compared to the 00028's 5/16" non-scalloped braces.

 

The bracing aside however, IMHO the most important differences between these two instruments are the neck width and scale length. Both are 14 fret necks, however the 000 neck has a 24.9" scale while the OM scale is 25.5", the same length as their Dreads. Also, the OM has a 1.75" nut width but the 000 has a 1 11/16" nut, like the Dreads. I really do not understand the advantage of a 000 14 fret neck. Although the shorter neck is easier to play because there is less string tension, the cost is decreased volume. So, it's really not a great choice for fingerstyle or flatpicking. I would think that a shoter neck would favor fingerstyle, so why don't they put on a wider neck?

 

I still have not answered your question about the price differential.

[bjorn-fjord]

Don't try to make sense of the pricing differential between various guitars. In many cases, a difference in pricing has much more to do with marketing than with the actual production cost of the guitar. The salesman's game is not always rooted in logic. The best example I can provide is the difference in cost between a rosewood guitar and a mahogany guitar. In many cases, a rosewood guitar retails for $500-$1000 more than an identical guitar in mahogany despite the fact that the difference in cost between the two woods is pretty insignificant.

 

Don't believe me? Luthier's Mercantile lists a set of Indian Rosewood for $74.25 and a set of Honduras Mahogany for $48.50. A whopping difference of $25.75 per guitar.

 

http://www.lmii.com/CartTwo/Secondproducthead.asp?CategoryName=+Backs+and+Sides

[JasmineTea]

bjorn fjord, that ROCKS. thank you.

[LDF]

Originally posted by 54merk There are many differences between these two guitars. Let's start with price. The OM21 lists for $2399 and the 00028 for $2749. OK, not a $1000 difference, only $250. The OM uses scalloped 1/4" braces, which add some cost compared to the 00028's 5/16" non-scalloped braces. The bracing aside however, IMHO the most important differences between these two instruments are the neck width and scale length. Both are 14 fret necks, however the 000 neck has a 24.9" scale while the OM scale is 25.5", the same length as their Dreads. Also, the OM has a 1.75" nut width but the 000 has a 1 11/16" nut, like the Dreads. I really do not understand the advantage of a 000 14 fret neck. Although the shorter neck is easier to play because there is less string tension, the cost is decreased volume. So, it's really not a great choice for fingerstyle or flatpicking. I would think that a shoter neck would favor fingerstyle, so why don't they put on a wider neck? I still have not answered your question about the price differential.

 

You misunderstood my price question. I did say there is not much of a difference in price between the OM-21 and 000-28. The question is, more simply put, why does an OM-28 cost roughly $1000 more than a 000-28. That's 28!

 

I realize there is a difference in scale length as well as nut width. Still, why the price gap??? Both of the 28 models have roughly the same appointments and types of wood etc... So again, What is the real difference in construction that makes the OM-28 so much more costly than the 000-28?

 

we're gettin' there!

[solitaire]

Originally posted by LDF You misunderstood my price question. I did say there is not much of a difference in price between the OM-21 and 000-28. The question is, more simply put, why does an OM-28 cost roughly $1000 more than a 000-28. That's 28! I realize there is a difference in scale length as well as nut width. Still, why the price gap??? Both of the 28 models have roughly the same appointments and types of wood etc... So again, What is the real difference in construction that makes the OM-28 so much more costly than the 000-28? we're gettin' there!

Maybe that has a few things to do with the OM-28 being a CS instrument. I'm surprised of the price gap though - at Elderly's the 28 is some $100 or so more than the 21.

 

Edit: At Elderly's the OM is $880 more than the 14-f 000. Should be about the same elsewhere. That's their retail price, btw.

[solitaire]

 

Originally posted by 54merk ...//while the OM scale is 25.5", the same length as their Dreads.

 

If I may correct you, 54, but that's 25.4". I know eg Larrivee and other brands have 25.5" scales though. But then, what difference does 1/10" make?

[LDF]

 

Originally posted by solitaire Maybe that has a few things to do with the OM-28 being a CS instrument. I'm surprised of the price gap though - at Elderly's the 28 is some $100 or so more than the 21. Edit: At Elderly's the OM is $880 more than the 14-f 000. Should be about the same elsewhere. That's their retail price, btw.

 

 

I checked a couple other sites. They list the om-28 at $2,700 and the 000-28 at $2,000. That's the price they're selling for. So we can conclude that generally an om-28 is going to sell for $700 to $800 more than the 000-28.

 

So what you're saying is that because the om is a CS (custom shop?) instrument, it costs more. What is it they do then that makes the difference. My guess would be the bracings, but your guess is as good as mine, OK better than mine:D

 

Maybe they break expensive bottles of champagne on the headstocks....

[nylon rock]

Recently I bought an OM-21 Custom off the floor at Mandolin's.

They were pricing it at $2600, which included a Geib case.

 

With CS instruments, they're somewhat desireable, and so there's not much you can do to talk down the price. You like the guitar and it is one of a kind. To say that you'll just go elsewhere and get the same thing involves waiting for it to be manufactured, and you may have buyer's remorse during the waiting period. I was able to talk Mandolin's down in price below their price, but it involved going with their cash payment routine. Did save taxes, though. Had it shipped.

 

So, I struggled with what the upgrades might be worth and wondered what the probable list price would have been.

 

In my analysis, I sized it up after the fact as:

 

OM-21: $2399

Englemann top (Premium): $400

Cutaway: $200

Butterbean Open Back Gotohs (Nickel): $100

Tortise Heelcap: Free

I-03 Tortise Pickguard: Free

Custom Top Inlay (.073" B/W Boltaron/.049" BWB Boltaron): $100

Geib Case Substitution: $100

Custom Shop Attention to Detail: $400

 

Total: $3699

 

With this analysis, going the CS route added on $1300 to a "very nice" OM-21. Now you might wonder, who in their right mind would even consider an OM-21 for $3699.

 

Well, when it was all said and done I was happy with the final out the door price, which I won't mention here.

 

It is a wonderful guitar, and the few upgrades were money well spent. It looks very classy with its top inlay to compliment the rosette, and the top being premium Englemann, the "to die for" cutaway (I flipped when I saw it because that was a prerequisite for me; punchy, beefier electric style leads on those thicker strings up in the high end---penetrates you to the core with new strings, not to mention the high notes on the B and E), the upgraded open tuners in nickel. And the Geib case.

 

Custom Shop is attention to detail and pride in workmanship that translates into a one of a kind instrument. You pay for this sort of stuff like you would anything else that is custom made.

 

No bottle of chamgagne, but I had several bottles in the fridge left over from Thanksgiving.

[nylon rock]

One more thing, aside from string spacing, it would seem that you could turn an OM into a OOO or a OOO into an OM very easily.

 

For an an OM, just put on slightly light strings to make it into a OOO, and put slightly medium strings on a OOO to make it into an OM.

 

It would be an interesting blindfold test.

[solitaire]

 

Originally posted by LDF I checked a couple other sites. They list the om-28 at $2,700 and the 000-28 at $2,000. That's the price they're selling for. So we can conclude that generally an om-28 is going to sell for $700 to $800 more than the 000-28. So what you're saying is that because the om is a CS (custom shop?) instrument, it costs more. What is it they do then that makes the difference. My guess would be the bracings, but your guess is as good as mine, OK better than mine:D Maybe they break expensive bottles of champagne on the headstocks....

 

The scalloping of braces definately enters into this discussion. This difference in treatment is quite comparable with the D-28 and the HD-28.

 

Then, the OM-28 being a CS inst. it's produced off the main series and at a smaller number, this would mean some more attention to detail.

 

The longer and wider neck means more wood per instrument and the price would be adjusted to that (though this would not affect price much).

 

Nylonrock: You're right in saying the guage of strings is the other factor in increasing or decreasing tension of strings. However the scalloped bracing of the OMs will give you a slightly more dynamic and muddier sound (and a sloppier feel).

[nylon rock]

solitaire, an OM compared to a OOO, I would think that the OOO would have the sloppier feel due to the reduced tension in the strings.

 

Friday Night I put John Pearse Phosphor Bronze Slightly Lights on after having had the same strings in Light on. The Slightly Lights are midway between Extra Lights and Lights.

 

Entirely different guitar now!

 

I have to lighten up on my attack and settle for less digging...requires a much lighter approach with the pick. The volume has decreased, and I think the action became a little lowered as I am just at the brink of buzzing.

 

But, suddenly the guitar is a "blues" guitar. I can bend these strings left and right with incredible added vibrato. My leads are very stylistic now, though they do lack the punch they had with the Lights. Still, it is so much fun now. Big string bends are possible without having to change your fingering just prior to the bend to the middle finger to get some muscle behind them. Even putting barre chords on is effortless. It is like the guitar just had a pro setup.

 

So, it is great to know that an OM can have an added dimension similar to a OOO just by going to these Slightly Lights.

[LDF]

Solitaire, Nylon - What gauge and type of strings would y'all recommend for my OM-21? My playing preference is easy playability with fingerpicking, but not exclusively. I don't want buzzing when I decide to strum a little (which I usually do with my fingernails).

 

Or maybe I should just ask, what string would YOU prefer?

 

Good info btw, I agree that the scalloped bracing is probably what makes the biggest difference in price not to mention sound. Do you suppose they select their tonewood more carefully with the om's?

[solitaire]

Originally posted by LDF Solitaire, Nylon - What gauge and type of strings would y'all recommend for my OM-21? My playing preference is easy playability with fingerpicking, but not exclusively. I don't want buzzing when I decide to strum a little (which I usually do with my fingernails). Or maybe I should just ask, what string would YOU prefer? Good info btw, I agree that the scalloped bracing is probably what makes the biggest difference in price not to mention sound. Do you suppose they select their tonewood more carefully with the om's?

I believe Martin has stamped a heaviest gauge recommended on the inside midstrip (I believe that to be Lights).

 

Some people prefer Elixirs but I find them a bit unpleasingly chunky, dry and rattly. My OM came with these, but I will soon change them to Dean Markley Bluesteels, which are brighter, sweeter and more vividly dynamic. Another pro is they require less tension for any given pitch.

 

I know Martin have developed their own Fingerpicking string, but I couldn't vouch for these since they're not available around here.

"Fingerpicker" on here had many suggestions the last time this topic was on the agenda.

 

I'm not sure they'd choose better tonewoods for the OMs, under any moon not for the 21 series instruments.

[nylon rock]

LDF, for you, go with Lights right out of the box. That's where to start. It is a good middle of the road thickness, and the OM-21 ships with these on. This gage is considered by Martin to be the best for the guitar. The OM-21 can take Mediums, and that is the maximum. Heavier and you technically void the warranty.

 

By the way, you will love your OM-21. Take good care of it, hopefully it won't get banged around. They look incredible with age due to the ruggedness of the tortise binding, and the teardrop tortise pickguard, complimented by a beautiful body style in orange. The small 1/8th inch MOP fingerboard dots round it out as strictly business.

 

I remember the first time I saw an OM-21. It was in a music store alongside a bunch of new instruments, and it was used, 10 years old. It looked so cool with its orange top from aging. Played better than any guitar I tried in the store. Its balanced sound, mellow sound from age, and lack of showy appointments made it stand out as a "player's guitar." Though I can't recommend this, the guitar looked like its fingerboard had been treated with an oil. It had a darker look than normal which looked cool as hell, and close to the frets was slight-green corrosion, which at the time I attributed as decendent of musical blood, sweat, and tears. If not for all the dings on its face, I would have bought it. (I dreamt of owning it that whole week, was going to go back and make an offer, but decided I'd try to find a better one. Found out in my search that OM-21s, used and in excellent condition, are near impossible to find---the owners just won't part with them. Very endearing instruments because of their simplicity.)

[solitaire]

 

Originally posted by nylon rock By the way, you will love your OM-21. Take good care of it, hopefully it won't get banged around. They look incredible with age due to the ruggedness of the tortise binding, and the teardrop tortise pickguard, complimented by a beautiful body style in orange. The small 1/8th inch MOP fingerboard dots round it out as strictly business. I remember the first time I saw an OM-21. It was in a music store alongside a bunch of new instruments, and it was used, 10 years old. It looked so cool with its orange top from aging. Played better than any guitar I tried in the store. Its balanced sound, mellow sound from age, and lack of showy appointments made it stand out as a "player's guitar." Though I can't recommend this, the guitar looked like its fingerboard had been treated with an oil. It had a darker look than normal which looked cool as hell, and close to the frets was slight-green corrosion, which at the time I attributed as decendent of musical blood, sweat, and tears. If not for all the dings on its face, I would have bought it. (I dreamt of owning it that whole week, was going to go back and make an offer, but decided I'd try to find a better one. Found out in my search that OM-21s, used and in excellent condition, are near impossible to find---the owners just won't part with them. Very endearing instruments because of their simplicity.)

 

I agree to the full. Before I ran into that Sigurdson on eBay I had the OM-21 in my sights. Actually, I still got images of that model on my harddrive (one of which can be seen below). I too find the small MOP dots a thrill and the understated tortoise to Spruce and Rosewood I find more pleasing to the eye than that white binding of the Standard Series instruments.

[nylon rock]

Yeah, with my OM-21 Cutaway, I kind of miss not having the understated look of the rosewood to tortise to spruce.

 

But my guitar departs with several custom upgrades---the cutaway, the Englemann, rosewood to tortise to two different pin stripe thichnesses---a BW and a BWB, and the butterbeans with open back Gotohs,and so it actually looks only slightly like an OM-21. Still I can't wait till it gets a little orange to its face.

[LDF]

Originally posted by solitaire I agree to the full. Before I ran into that Sigurdson on eBay I had the OM-21 in my sights. Actually, I still got images of that model on my harddrive (one of which can be seen below). I too find the small MOP dots a thrill and the understated tortoise to Spruce and Rosewood I find more pleasing to the eye than that white binding of the Standard Series instruments.

 

Yes I keep looking at pictures of it online. I still don't have the guitar yet. Southpaw is taking their sweet time shipping it. I only today got the tracking number and found out it's being shipped now. They've had since last week to ship it:mad: The waiting is killing me. If all goes well it'll be here thursday.

 

Four...more...days....can't...hold...out..much..longer....

[solitaire]

 

Originally posted by nylon rock Yeah, with my OM-21 Cutaway, I kind of miss not having the understated look of the rosewood to tortise to spruce. But my guitar departs with several custom upgrades---the cutaway, the Englemann, rosewood to tortise to two different pin stripe thichnesses---a BW and a BWB, and the butterbeans with open back Gotohs,and so it actually looks only slightly like an OM-21. Still I can't wait till it gets a little orange to its face.

 

A guitar like that, I'm sure it didn't come for a song. All those upgrades, though perhaps not costier in labour and material than of those features of the original model (or the 28 for that matter) would account for a few pennies.

[solitaire]

Originally posted by LDF Yes I keep looking at pictures of it online. I still don't have the guitar yet. Southpaw is taking their sweet time shipping it. I only today got the tracking number and found out it's being shipped now. They've had since last week to ship it:mad: The waiting is killing me. If all goes well it'll be here thursday. Four...more...days....can't...hold...out..much..longer....

I know what you mean. I ordered my OM from Canada and it had something of a vacation in Ireland for 5 days before getting here. I was promised a Canada - Sweden shipping elapse of 5 days.

[jknj]

OK, just to clarify the difference in price between the OM28V and the 000-28: The OM28V, which is th eonly model you commonly find, since Martin does not make a standard OM28 without the V, has several enhancements over the 000-28. It has higher grade wood, a long saddle, which is harder to install and adjust, more expensive tuners, diamond and square fretboard inlays, top herringbone inlay, and a Geib (upgrade) case. This in addition to the scalloped braces. The OM28 Custom that Elderly has on their site is a custom model that they have made for them. Because it is not a standard model, it is built in lower volume, and Eldelry takes the risk of selling it. Since people are not looking around for that model from multiple sites, Elderly feels that they can sell it for more. It is less than the OM-28V, but not as little as the 000-28. Buffalo Bros has several Custom modified models, as does Maurys Music. In nearly all these cases, the price is a bit higher, although Muarys tries to give a good deal. I think they may be selling a lot of their 00-18 and 28 Customs. The OM-21 is a rosewood fingerboard and bridge design, with very spartan appointments (less trim than even the 000-28). It sells for slightly less than the 000-28, showing that there is nothing inherent in the pricing structure of Martins products which is weird. If Martin offered a standard OM-28, which I believe they used to, it would cost very close to the 000-28. Martin is the epitome of a logical German company.