Members BuleriaChk Posted January 27, 2007 Members Share Posted January 27, 2007 I play a nylon string (Flamenco) guitar with Pickup The World pickups, which are great, but have a low output signal. I have both Power Plugs, which give a decent signal, but not enough to effectively drive some guitar processors. So far, (for AC), the best solution for me has been to use the mic input of the Boss GS-10 for my studio and for performing where there is power. But I'm searching for a portable solution now. I tried an Ultrasound DI +, which only provided a small amount of signal over the Power Plug. I have a Zoom G2, with gain up which also seems to work, but I'm not wild about the effects for Flamenco. I don't need tone shaping; the PUTW gives a great sound the way is.... 1. Have any of you had experience with the Tech21 Para Driver DI (or any Tech 21 DI's); are they basic preamps like the Power Plug (which matches the impedance of the PUTW pickup), or are they made for electric guitars? 2. Is the Aura a preamp (how much), or merely a tone shaper (which I don't need). Also, I have learned that any amp I use will be a PA to keep the tone clear.... Thanks, Best Regards, Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sdelsolray Posted January 27, 2007 Members Share Posted January 27, 2007 What's the remainder of your signal chain? The PUTW power plug provides 40dB of gain, which is more than most acoustic guitar preamps, and is plenty to raise the signal (even the initial weak signals from PUTW's film based pickups) to line level. Something is amiss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BuleriaChk Posted January 27, 2007 Author Members Share Posted January 27, 2007 sdelsoray - Thanks for your response.... Good to know that about the PUTW plug; I'm thinking now that is probably as good as I'm going to get. I'm thinking now that that is not the issue. I am particularly interested in going into channel 2 of my TransAudio 50, which may be a line level... 40 Db certainly should be powerful enough (I would use Channel 1 for the microphone). But I'm also thinking about a Fender Passport PD-150; the mic input is not a very high impedance 2K; line 66K, stereo /line 76 K, so don't know if any would be useable without the power plug - Anyway, my dealer here is letting me try the tech21 today, so I will be able to test it - still not sure I know what I want, but my benchmark is the gs-10 into the line input of the transaudio, which is perfect for my present gig (small room - actually, unless it is crowded with a huge loud party like last Tuesday, the GS-10 is sufficient.....) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Terry Allan Hall Posted January 27, 2007 Members Share Posted January 27, 2007 Try a Baggs Paracoustic...I usually have mine set at about "3", because the USTs I use are fairly powerful, so turned up to "5" or "6", it just might work for you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sdelsolray Posted January 27, 2007 Members Share Posted January 27, 2007 The Baggs unit would not be a good choice for a PUTW SBT. That series of pickups (#27, #54, #40 etc.) need the first gain stage close by. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sdelsolray Posted January 27, 2007 Members Share Posted January 27, 2007 sdelsoray - Thanks for your response....Good to know that about the PUTW plug; I'm thinking now that is probably as good as I'm going to get. I'm thinking now that that is not the issue. I am particularly interested in going into channel 2 of my TransAudio 50, which may be a line level... 40 Db certainly should be powerful enough (I would use Channel 1 for the microphone).But I'm also thinking about a Fender Passport PD-150; the mic input is not a very high impedance 2K; line 66K, stereo /line 76 K, so don't know if any would be useable without the power plug - Anyway, my dealer here is letting me try the tech21 today, so I will be able to test it - still not sure I know what I want, but my benchmark is the gs-10 into the line input of the transaudio, which is perfect for my present gig (small room - actually, unless it is crowded with a huge loud party like last Tuesday, the GS-10 is sufficient.....) The signal from PUTW power plug/line driver lowers the impedance of the pockup's original signal and is designed to work with line level inputs. Line level inputs usually have input impedances in the 20k to 50k range. Dunno about a 2k input impedance, plus that's a mic l evel input - that won't work right. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Terry Allan Hall Posted January 27, 2007 Members Share Posted January 27, 2007 The Baggs unit would not be a good choice for a PUTW SBT. That series of pickups (#27, #54, #40 etc.) need the first gain stage close by. As long as the cable from the guitar/pickup to the Baggs is less than 12 feet or so, they work great, actually. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BuleriaChk Posted January 27, 2007 Author Members Share Posted January 27, 2007 I just tried the SansAmp Para DI, which gave me a bit more boost than the PowerPlug (or the Ultrasound)... (this is kind of subjective, since I can't compare them side by side..), but I'll stick with the Powerplug... I have OD-20 which gives me plenty of gain, but has too much bass/mid which I can't dial out - I then tried a GP-20, and got a soiund very much like my GS-20 (not identical, of course), with plenty of signal for the various models into a flat amp. (I always turn the cabs off, since they seem to add too much bass - I think it is because the speakers for rock guitars boost the bass strings, since the dynamic range from bass to treble is much less in rock (electric) guitars than it is in nylon string guitars.... (I think - but if I use my effects with consumer boomboxes, they sound much better than in guitar amps with speakers. If I dial out the cabs in ampsims such as Amplitube 2 and Guitar Rig 2, I get the same improvement for my application) (I used to think the "edge" I was after was overdrive/distortion, but the OD-20 has that bassy emphasis (which I think rock guitarists want), whereas the gp-20, gs-10 and amp sims give a much better sound without the cabs. YMMV, and all this is a moving target, but it finally is beginning to make a little sense (to me, anyway.....:-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Terry Allan Hall Posted January 27, 2007 Members Share Posted January 27, 2007 BuleriaChk, have you tried a dedicated acoustic amp? Electric guitar amps don't work all that well for acoustic instruments, but dedicated acoustic amps are very much like "Mini-PAs". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BuleriaChk Posted January 28, 2007 Author Members Share Posted January 28, 2007 Actually, I have a Fender Acoustasonic SFX, which I am selling locally (it is 50lb, and won't fit on my motorcycle...:-) It sounded good, but not great to me (but I am trying for a slightly distorted/amp'd sound). I find that "acoustic" amps are optimized for steel string, not nylon strings (for a long time I was fooled by the "acoustic" settings on effects modules, because they were trying to make ELECTRIC guitars sound acoustic (steel string). Nylon strings have their own characteristics, and (for me) classical guitar is quite different from flamenco (which is rhythmically oriented - compas - like rock). What I'm trying for is a slightly "distorted" sound with a bit of reverb, but a flat amplification. As I said, consumer boomboxes work really well for the latter (my Altec-Lansing IM7 sounds GREAT with the GS-10). As a matter of fact, I just returned from my dealer (gave back the Tech 21), and he turne me on the the new Vox DA5. I played with it a bit and bought it on the spot - MUCH better than the Microcube (I have one for sale now, cheap....:-) It also has a mic input (as well as CD), which was one of my main searching for a preamp, since I wanted to use a mic with the microcube for dance classes. That problem is now solved (for less than the preamp would have cost)..... Stay tuned (at least for awhile....:-) BuleriaChk, have you tried a dedicated acoustic amp? Electric guitar amps don't work all that well for acoustic instruments, but dedicated acoustic amps are very much like "Mini-PAs". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sdelsolray Posted January 28, 2007 Members Share Posted January 28, 2007 As long as the cable from the guitar/pickup to the Baggs is less than 12 feet or so, they work great, actually. Great is a relative term, I guess. Must better performance putting the first gain stage in the guitar or at the endpin. I'm talking PUTW film SBTs here. Have you tried it both ways? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BuleriaChk Posted January 28, 2007 Author Members Share Posted January 28, 2007 So far (3 hrs) I am very, very impressed with the DA5 - I think it is true Microcube killer.....:-) My CD player sounds great through the Aux In (it sounded muddy to me in the Aux in of the Microcube), and to me the effects sound just as good, if not better..... Microcube, you've been a good ol' hoss, but ...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BuleriaChk Posted January 29, 2007 Author Members Share Posted January 29, 2007 An update - the DA-5 is most impressive. With NO preamp in the signal chain (other than whatever is in the devices), using a PUTW pickup without the Powerplug. 1. I connected the GS-10 amp output to the Aux In of the DA-10.. Whoa! Extraordinary detail. Huge volume.... 2. I then did the same thing with a GP-20 Amp Factory and a Pandora PX4 - Great sound, Huge Volume.... 3. Even my OD-20 (Drive Zone) almost sounded good (but not quite - it still has that bassy emphasis in most of the presets). The DA5 had NONE of that bassy coloring to which I was referring above intrinsically....and the sound (to me) is much more alive than thru my Transactive 50, although I will have to revisit that amp to make sure. All of the above is through the Aux In, meaning that the processors have enough juice to drive them even with a PUTW pickup without the preamp.Most impressive. Th DA5's own effects are excellent as well, of course... To me, the DA5 blows the Microcube off the map. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sdelsolray Posted January 29, 2007 Members Share Posted January 29, 2007 Yeah, the comparison between the Roland Microcube and the Vox DA5 must be something, a real Battle of the Titans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Terry Allan Hall Posted January 29, 2007 Members Share Posted January 29, 2007 Great is a relative term, I guess. Must better performance putting the first gain stage in the guitar or at the endpin. I'm talking PUTW film SBTs here. Have you tried it both ways? Certainly...will never have a pre-amp inside one of my good guitars...that sort of things is OK for cheap guitar, but not a quality axe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BuleriaChk Posted January 29, 2007 Author Members Share Posted January 29, 2007 :-) LoL I should mention that I don't amplify much; although Flamenco rasgueo is dynamic, and techniques should be strong, right now I'm focusing on intimate venues (small rooms; perhaps a ballroom at the most), and even then the emphasis is on the music itself, since Flamenco rhythms are unfamiliar to most (you gotta know a LOT about Flamenco to boogie to Bulerias.....:-) Also, my focus right now is getting a good sound mobile (i.e., AC independent) that will fit on a motorcycle..... So right now, I'm trying to get good tone at low levels (with the system within arms reach). I would need special sound guys for Madison Square Garden..:-) But I have spent a LOT of money and time on false paths, blind alleys, and equipment that was not quite ready for prime time (although it was incrementally better than that that had gone before.) And much of the sound I'm searching for is unique to my own application - I can only report my progress, and make no claim to generalities..... Anyway, so far the GS-10, the GP-20, and the G2 sound best through the DA5.... (I'm kind of curious how an ME-33 would sound - I'd think ME-50, but the reverb on that unit is - to me - underwhelming, if it exists at all.....) But I"m getting real close now.....:-) Yeah, the comparison between the Roland Microcube and the Vox DA5 must be something, a real Battle of the Titans. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sdelsolray Posted January 29, 2007 Members Share Posted January 29, 2007 Why are you using electric guitar gear, for the most part, to build a Flamenco guitar signal chain, other than because the motorcycle (i.e., transportation) issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BuleriaChk Posted January 29, 2007 Author Members Share Posted January 29, 2007 I'm trying to improve the strength of the sound (like rock) without losing the articulation necessary. In the '60's and '70's (when I was in Spain), we recorded fiestas with cheap tape decks which had distortion built in.... Actually, it sounded pretty good in some cases... it provided extra sustain, etc... But it was only on the recordings - at the time, we couldn't get the live sound - pickups were awful, feedback was impossible, etc. For a long time, I thought the effect I wanted was reverb. When that became available, it was fun to play with, but still not exact. Then I thought overdrive/distortion was what I needed (hence the OD-20 experiment). That was sort of right, but still lacking, and as I said above, most effects were oriented toward electric guitar. For me, the solution has been gravitating toward amp sims (without cabs) - Line 6 was a start, but GR2 and Amp2 provide more interesting results for computers with studio speakers (Bx5a's). But all live sound to date has been frustrating, although slowly improving.. The PUTW pickups were the first major break in what has been a 35 year struggle - they finally gave a natural sound without feedback for normal volumes (slightly above the natural sound of the guitar). I have tried many devices, but the GS-10 has been the second major breakthrough for me. (the GP-20 does the same thing without other effects - which I"m discovering I don't need or want) Granted, it is a very subjective thing, but a bit of amp od makes the strings sound more live when I play - kind of a reverb with bite... But true Flamenco has its own unique set of parameters, and part of the challenge is to remain convincing within the tradition. It is still a moving target for me, and I don't know anyone else doing this, although I am certain they are out there..... and then, of course, the next step is trying to figure out how the hell to get the live sound I like down on the hard disk, which is a whole other can of worms.... but I have a steady gig now (for at least another week, anyway), so have shifted my focus to live sound..... Why are you using electric guitar gear, for the most part, to build a Flamenco guitar signal chain, other than because the motorcycle (i.e., transportation) issue? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sdelsolray Posted January 29, 2007 Members Share Posted January 29, 2007 Certainly...will never have a pre-amp inside one of my good guitars...that sort of things is OK for cheap guitar, but not a quality axe.There are several that simply plug into the endpin, from outside the guitar. PUTW makes a couple. Pendulum's preamp module has been around for nearly 20 years. I use a PUTW #54 in one of my guitars, along with an internal mic. That #54 pickup really needs the juice early, and the Pendulum module is just the ticket. Plus, having volume and balance control at the endpin is very useful. My other guitar has a K&K mini and an internal mic. Works just as well with the Pendulum. Running the PUTW#54 to a DI or acoustic amp, say using a 10' cable, degrades the sound of that pickup. Degradation with the K&K isn't near as much, but it still occurs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Terry Allan Hall Posted January 29, 2007 Members Share Posted January 29, 2007 There are several that simply plug into the endpin, from outside the guitar. PUTW makes a couple. Pendulum's preamp module has been around for nearly 20 years.I use a PUTW #54 in one of my guitars, along with an internal mic. That #54 pickup really needs the juice early, and the Pendulum module is just the ticket. Plus, having volume and balance control at the endpin is very useful. My other guitar has a K&K mini and an internal mic. Works just as well with the Pendulum.Running the PUTW#54 to a DI or acoustic amp, say using a 10' cable, degrades the sound of that pickup. Degradation with the K&K isn't near as much, but it still occurs. If the cable is under about 12' and is of decent quality, there should be no degradation, unless the P/U is defective (or possibly installed incorrectly, although I'm not sure how much difference that could really make). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Terry Allan Hall Posted January 29, 2007 Members Share Posted January 29, 2007 I'm trying to improve the strength of the sound (like rock) without losing the articulation necessary. In the '60's and '70's (when I was in Spain), we recorded fiestas with cheap tape decks which had distortion built in.... Actually, it sounded pretty good in some cases... it provided extra sustain, etc... But it was only on the recordings - at the time, we couldn't get the live sound - pickups were awful, feedback was impossible, etc. For a long time, I thought the effect I wanted was reverb. When that became available, it was fun to play with, but still not exact. Then I thought overdrive/distortion was what I needed (hence the OD-20 experiment). That was sort of right, but still lacking, and as I said above, most effects were oriented toward electric guitar. For me, the solution has been gravitating toward amp sims (without cabs) - Line 6 was a start, but GR2 and Amp2 provide more interesting results for computers with studio speakers (Bx5a's). But all live sound to date has been frustrating, although slowly improving.. The PUTW pickups were the first major break in what has been a 35 year struggle - they finally gave a natural sound without feedback for normal volumes (slightly above the natural sound of the guitar). I have tried many devices, but the GS-10 has been the second major breakthrough for me. (the GP-20 does the same thing without other effects - which I"m discovering I don't need or want) Granted, it is a very subjective thing, but a bit of amp od makes the strings sound more live when I play - kind of a reverb with bite... But true Flamenco has its own unique set of parameters, and part of the challenge is to remain convincing within the tradition. It is still a moving target for me, and I don't know anyone else doing this, although I am certain they are out there..... and then, of course, the next step is trying to figure out how the hell to get the live sound I like down on the hard disk, which is a whole other can of worms.... but I have a steady gig now (for at least another week, anyway), so have shifted my focus to live sound..... Have you ever experimented w/ a solid-body a/e nylon string...something like this? : Might be easier to control the feedback while allowing sound you seek... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BuleriaChk Posted January 29, 2007 Author Members Share Posted January 29, 2007 Yes, I have a Yamaha Silent guitar. It does remove all feedback issues, but it sounds very different from a Flamenco guitar, although I haven't had a chance yet to try it with my new toys... It was really fun to experiment with Heavy Metal Flamenco at one time, but I lost all articulation, especially in rasgueo (strumming) which is really important for Flamenco compas (rhythm). But the sustain was really fun for string melodies.... However, for low volumes, I can get almost the same effect from PUTW #40 (?) and my Flamenco guitars (I have the stereo version installed). So I'm thinking of putting the Yamaha up on EBay (it is really a fine instrument for its own applications).... Have you ever experimented w/ a solid-body a/e nylon string...something like this? : Might be easier to control the feedback while allowing sound you seek... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BuleriaChk Posted January 21, 2008 Author Members Share Posted January 21, 2008 Thought I'd check into this thread again, as things have changed. I sent the Power Plugs to PUTW as requested (by them) to check an possibly modify them, but now I think it may have been a fools' errand, since I am (almost) supremely happy with my guitar's sound now.... 1. I swapped the PUTW sensors so the tip of the TRS now picks up the sensor on the treble side (actually rewired the jack, since the sensors are on the soundboard forever.....:-). VAST improvement! (I can't believe i didn't do that a couple of years ago, ... duh....) 2. I purchased an ACX450 ($179) (won't fit on my mc, but if I get paid, I'll take my car.....:-) Sounds really excellent, especially when paired with...The reverb is OK, not great, though......... and it lacks a DI output, an effects loop, and all sorts of other stuff. 3. my new Tech21 Para Driver DI - the driver adds just the tiny amount of grit I was searching for, and can be dialed out... The Tech21 also works great with the DA5 (and my DA10), however. But now I have decided to get serious about all of this, and have the new LR Baggs Core 1 (A-Ref) amplifier on order. If you bug me in a month or so, I'll report back - I get ten days to try it out from Musician's Friend (I'll know in an hour or so), but it is worth the return postage to test it. If the Baggs amp doesn't work out, I'll consider the bigger Behringers, or maybe a Loudbox, or maybe...... But changing the sensors was the MAJOR boost. The Zoom G2 also works great into all the amps (not to mention my GS-10, which is REALLY fun!) I also got the Behringer ADI21 - it is sort of a clone of the Baggs/Tech21, but not as advanced as the latter - still, for $30 it sounds good, and I'll just stick it in the gig bag as a backup..... There are a lot of neat things about the LR Bags A-Ref amp (I think) - if it works out, I'll probably be selling a bunch of the above stuff at discounted prices on EBay; but make me an offer, and you'll get it first......:-) And I really should test the Acoustasonic with the new sensor configuration.... since it doesn't seem to be selling to the local market, and is kind of heavy to ship for EBay..... Stay tuned...... Best Regards, Chuck Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OldGuitarPlayer Posted January 21, 2008 Members Share Posted January 21, 2008 So far (3 hrs) I am very, very impressed with the DA5 - I think it is true Microcube killer.....:-) My CD player sounds great through the Aux In (it sounded muddy to me in the Aux in of the Microcube), and to me the effects sound just as good, if not better..... Microcube, you've been a good ol' hoss, but ...... I am glad to see another happy Vox DA5 user out there. I have one too and I use it for outdoor patio gigs and busking in the summer. It's a versatile little amp and if you just need slight amplication for acoustic guitar it's great. I've run a microphone through it too. I've also used it for those times when I've been asked to play electric guitar backup for an acoustic player. It has a pretty good compressor and reverb too. I managed to find a padded cooler bag with a shoulder strap that the amp fits perfectly inside. Between that and my guitar in a gigbag I can walk all over town making music. I also read that you have the Behringer ADI-21 pre-amp/DI and again I am another satisfied user here. My only acoustic guitar pickup is a Fishman NeoD sondhole unit that I can use in any of my guitars. I run it through the Behringer ADI-21 and it gives a nice boost to the signal and also gives the added bonus of EQ. Like you said for $30 it's a good deal and it goes with me to all acoustic shows. All the best! OGP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BuleriaChk Posted January 21, 2008 Author Members Share Posted January 21, 2008 I also bought the DA-10 which sounds even better than the DA-5, and is still battery powered and portable (the two speakers make a difference). However, apparently the DA-20 doesn't sound as good as either the DA-5 or DA-10 for some reason..... go figure...........:-) I am glad to see another happy Vox DA5 user out there. I have one too and I use it for outdoor patio gigs and busking in the summer. It's a versatile little amp and if you just need slight amplication for acoustic guitar it's great. I've run a microphone through it too. I've also used it for those times when I've been asked to play electric guitar backup for an acoustic player. It has a pretty good compressor and reverb too. I managed to find a padded cooler bag with a shoulder strap that the amp fits perfectly inside. Between that and my guitar in a gigbag I can walk all over town making music. OGP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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