Members TonyCrazyMan Posted July 28, 2005 Members Share Posted July 28, 2005 Something I've been struggling with pretty much lately is loudness, both the loudness of the total mix and the loudness of single tracks in a mix. What feeling this is causing is that the brightness and clearity is not there. One told me it feels like dynamic range dissapears. I fully agree! I have the eq reset on my analog mixer. If I record completely dry and normalize each track to peak at -0dB with equal volume levels for each track it's loud enough and I'm satisifed with the result, in terms of loudness. But when the mixing and mastering process is finished I always end up with a much less loud result both in terms of the total mix not being loud enough and some instruments not noticable/standing out enough. It has nothing to do with the speakers because I can hear the sounds very well coming from my Mackie HR824 studio monitors in my studio when I mix. I am fully aware of the fact the panning causes decreased loudness to some extent and applying too much reverb or other effects can make the instrument dissapear. I recently tried doing a crazy thing with an EQ effect. I took a parametric 10-band EQ and turned up whole frequence range to the full, 18dB. I thought that worked for the better! Should I continue adding more...?! Someone mentioned "phasing" of stereo sampled sounds, could cause this loudness problem. Is that true and what does it mean? What should I do to avoid that problem? I don't want to lose the stereo picture in the sound. Can I "lose" any loudness by adding effects that causes clipping and I later turn down the output level to avoid clipping? Also, is overdubbing tracks bad for the loudness of the overall mix? Should I avoid overdubbing tracks for this reason? Another thing I've started thinking is that something bad happens with the loudness on input tracks when the fader is moved below the -12dB level in Cakewalk Sonar, it's like the loudness decrease accelerates after that! Is this due some bad dynamic range in my RME Fireface 800 audio interface or why does it feel like the instrument is dying out under that level? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members where02190 Posted July 28, 2005 Members Share Posted July 28, 2005 First off, stop normalizing each track to 0dbfs. Target the tracks nominal (average) level to the 0dbu reference of your converters. Having every track go to 0dbfs, then subsequently probably running each track fader at or near 0, you're creaming your summing into oblivion!!!!!!!!! I shutter to think what the level looks like going into the mix buss!!!!!! Pushing up all 10 bands on the 10 band eq to +18 only increases the level 18db, and just compounds the overdriven mix buss summing if you inserted it on the master buss. TURN EVERYTHING DOWN!!!!!!!!!! With your master fader at 0, target your master fader level (which is POST fader in most DAW's) and keep the nominal (average) level on yoru master fader meters at the 0dbu reference of your converters. IF it's not loud enough, turn up your monitors, NOT the tracks!!!!!! This yields optimum quality audio while leaving adequate transient headroom to prevent clipping, and leaves sufficient dynamic room for the mastering process, be it you or a professional mastering house. In addition, do NOT use any mix buss compression or eq, leave that for the mastering engineer. Louder ? better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members greendoor Posted July 28, 2005 Members Share Posted July 28, 2005 +1! I hope the message about normalisation is sinking in. We've been trying to convince Tony over in the 'other' forum that normalisation is a sin. Obsession with loudness at the tracking or mixing stage will result in damaged audio. If loud is what you want, the mastering engineer (even if that is yourself) can smash it into oblivion later on. (Just keep the original undamaged mix file in case you repent afterwards). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kranak Posted July 28, 2005 Members Share Posted July 28, 2005 In digital audio, what is a good level to leave unmastered mixes? How hot should it be while still allowing the mastering engineer headroom to do his/her work? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TonyCrazyMan Posted July 28, 2005 Author Members Share Posted July 28, 2005 Thank you for the replies! As far as normalization is concirned, it has sinked in now. I was playing around a little with the volume faders when I suddenly thought I should try normalize all the tracks to see how it affects the output peak level. I selected all the tracks and pressed normalize! I was close to destroying my speakers after that! I got this extreme noise on the snare channel!! I then pressed undo and tested the normalize on only the snare track. Then it was ok. I pressed undo again and applied normalize on all the tracks. The same problem! Then I realised the quality of the normalization in Cakewalk Sonar 4... I will not press that normalize button ever again, because next time I press it I might really destroy my speakers from distortion...! (I think it was a bug though...) It seems like my mistakes so far with loudness seems to be eq related. I have also measured the loudness against the peak level, which is completely wrong in practise. Instead I have to start using a UV meter and a spectrum analyzer, I think I have those tools in the digital check software. With your master fader at 0, target your master fader level (which is POST fader in most DAW's) and keep the nominal (average) level on yoru master fader meters at the 0dbu reference of your converters. IF it's not loud enough, turn up your monitors, NOT the tracks!!!!!! I'm sorry, but I really don't understand all this. How can you know how much headroom is available if you don't know exactly how close the peak -0dB an input track is. If a track really peaks at -0db and you move down the input fader -10dB you know that the exact amount of headrooom is 10dB before clipping. Of course I am able to turn down the source volume and leave 15dB headroom going in(with the help of a manual approximation on the spectrum analyzer) and keep the input fader at -0dB, but doesn't that mean I get a worse signal-to-noise ratio before the digital conversion, a loss which is bigger than the loss in sound quality I would get by going in as loud as possible, normalize the track in 24-bit and then turn down the input track faders to such a low level that I get a nice suitable headroom? I use a digital check spectrum analyzer that shows how loud the signal is coming in and whether clipping happens or not. But by ear I've noticed that the final result is marginally better the closer the -0db I can get when the signal comes in. Target the tracks nominal (average) level to the 0dbu reference of your converters. I have the input level set to -10dBV on the converter. The analog mixer is giving signals at around the 0dB reference point, which is not near clipping. When the spectrum analyzer clips it turns red, hence I know exactly how loud I can play coming in. For practical reasons I usually try to stay in the area -5dB (before clipping) on the analog input level. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members where02190 Posted July 28, 2005 Members Share Posted July 28, 2005 Lowereing the master fader does NOTHING to prevent mix buss overloadm, and gives you inaccurate meter reading, since the mix buss meter is POST FADER!!!!!! Leave the mix buss fader at zero. Target your converters 0dbu reference (which has nothing to do with the mentioned -10 input sensitivity setting). typically this is somewhere between -12 and -20dbfs. See the specs on your specific converters for the exact level. If you move the master fader down 10db all you've done is reduced your output level by 10, and you have no idea what's going INTO the mix buss, because the meter reads output. By keeping it at 0, if you start clipping the mix buss, you know you need to lower your individual track levels. Again, target that mix buss level to the 0dbu reference point of your specific converters. If you need to hear the mix louder, turn up your monitors, NOT THE MIX. On that note, be aware of mixing too loud. the human curve is not linear, and mixes at loud volumes will not sound good at lower volumes. get yourself a $35 Radio Shack SPL meter, and target your average mix levels around 75db A weighted. Monitoring at high levels creates ear fatigue, as well as the potential for long term permanent hearing loss. Take frequent breaks. I have a kitchen timer in the studio that goes off every 2 hours. When it does, I get up, and leave the control room for 10-15 minutes to give my ears and brain a break. A track should NEVER peak at 0dbfs. If your tracks are consistantly peaking at 0dbfs, you are recording your imputs too hot!!! Again, refer to the 0dbu reference point of your converters, and target your nominal(average) level when you record to that. If you're connecting +4 gear into those converters set to -10, you need to correct that. read up on input sensitivity, and learn about how your gear should be connected properly. Driving +4 into -10 will quickly overload the converters and cause distortion that, while maybe not very audible, combined over a few dozen channels will detract greatly from the sonic quality of your mix. It also limits your input headroom severly. Think about this: You have 24 tracks all peaking at 0dbfs, nominally running -6dbfs. That puts the average track level around +15dbu. Across 24 tracks. You pull down the master fader, but it still sounds like crap. Why? Beacuse you are driving the hell out of the mix buss INPUT!!!!! Lowering the master fader lowers the mix buss OUTPUT, but does nothing for the INPUT!!!!! Don't go for loud, go for good, with proper gain staging and levels. Then, go for loud. You'll find it much easier to achieve. AFA how much headroom to leave for the mastering engineer, check the 0dbu reference of your specific converters, and target your nominal(average) DBFS level to that. typicially that will leave a good 6dbfs for the mastering engineer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TonyCrazyMan Posted July 28, 2005 Author Members Share Posted July 28, 2005 Originally posted by where02190 Lowereing the master fader does NOTHING to prevent mix buss overloadm, and gives you inaccurate meter reading, since the mix buss meter is POST FADER!!!!!! Leave the mix buss fader at zero. Target your converters 0dbu reference (which has nothing to do with the mentioned -10 input sensitivity setting). typically this is somewhere between -12 and -20dbfs. See the specs on your specific converters for the exact level. If you move the master fader down 10db all you've done is reduced your output level by 10, and you have no idea what's going INTO the mix buss, because the meter reads output. By keeping it at 0, if you start clipping the mix buss, you know you need to lower your individual track levels. Again, target that mix buss level to the 0dbu reference point of your specific converters. If you need to hear the mix louder, turn up your monitors, NOT THE MIX. On that note, be aware of mixing too loud. the human curve is not linear, and mixes at loud volumes will not sound good at lower volumes. get yourself a $35 Radio Shack SPL meter, and target your average mix levels around 75db A weighted. Monitoring at high levels creates ear fatigue, as well as the potential for long term permanent hearing loss. Take frequent breaks. I have a kitchen timer in the studio that goes off every 2 hours. When it does, I get up, and leave the control room for 10-15 minutes to give my ears and brain a break. A track should NEVER peak at 0dbfs. If your tracks are consistantly peaking at 0dbfs, you are recording your imputs too hot!!! Again, refer to the 0dbu reference point of your converters, and target your nominal(average) level when you record to that. If you're connecting +4 gear into those converters set to -10, you need to correct that. read up on input sensitivity, and learn about how your gear should be connected properly. Driving +4 into -10 will quickly overload the converters and cause distortion that, while maybe not very audible, combined over a few dozen channels will detract greatly from the sonic quality of your mix. It also limits your input headroom severly. Think about this: You have 24 tracks all peaking at 0dbfs, nominally running -6dbfs. That puts the average track level around +15dbu. Across 24 tracks. You pull down the master fader, but it still sounds like crap. Why? Beacuse you are driving the hell out of the mix buss INPUT!!!!! Lowering the master fader lowers the mix buss OUTPUT, but does nothing for the INPUT!!!!! Don't go for loud, go for good, with proper gain staging and levels. Then, go for loud. You'll find it much easier to achieve. AFA how much headroom to leave for the mastering engineer, check the 0dbu reference of your specific converters, and target your nominal(average) DBFS level to that. typicially that will leave a good 6dbfs for the mastering engineer. Great reply, now I learned a lot of new things! Thanks! I will read the RME Fireface 800 manual now and look for that 0dbu reference level... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TonyCrazyMan Posted July 28, 2005 Author Members Share Posted July 28, 2005 I made great progress by doing this update! As a matter of fact, I got a new best sound quality record. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted July 28, 2005 Share Posted July 28, 2005 As a matter of fact, I got a new best sound quality record. Cool - that's what I like to hear! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members AudioMaverick Posted July 30, 2005 Members Share Posted July 30, 2005 Where... That was absoletely excellent! That should be framed and followed as a model. I think some major labels need to read those words! I don't have my own thums-up icon thingy. But, if I had one... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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