Your music is not your product

[Cliftonb]

 

If a band has deep enough pockets to tour for a few years and lose money, they might start to gain some traction. Might.

 

 

And if that band sucks, they could play for double that time and still not gain any traction.

[PermaNoobie]

Unless our internet traffic is heavily monitored (and I'm 100% positive that's what the government would like and where they are inevitably headed), you cannot eliminate pirating. I don't care how many laws are in place.

 

I think you might want to reread what I wrote. I wrote that laws don't really make things impossible - they just provide redress. Defamation, murder, conversion, all that stuff isn't impossible either. What they provide is redress.

 

Even with 100% internet monitoring it still piracy still wouldn't be impossible - steganographic tech, adhoc networks, etc can help circumvent even that.

 

 

I think it's really a case of either adapt to the surroundings, or get a part-time job.

 

I think getting a part-time job has been PARTof adapting to surroundings for centuries, instruction is a big one. Even JS Bach got heavy reprimands at Arnstadt for what was seen as ignoring parts of his job. Santana's original drummer teaches drums just down the road from me, and we aren't talking master-class stuff.

 

Maybe demographics, or maybe just the idea of "if I can get it for free, why would I not?"

 

That can be part of the demographics too. Some demographic sectors might be more OK with that (social norms and mores, risk sensitivity, user experience like perceived convenience, etc), other sectors might be less inclined to that sort of thing.

 

I just pulled that out of the air, but realistically, yea I'd imagine it would be lower.

 

Me too - a lot lower

[sventvkg]

Jesus Christ, this thread is a circle jerk. It's gonna play out like it plays out. For me, being a full time music guy, I study this full time and i'm very interested in this subject. The bottom line is BE EXCELLENT! For me, My goal is to be as good or better than the other songwriters and performers who do what I do in town. If I can attain this goal, It leads to work. It's that simple. I've got 23 years experience and I work at this very hard everyday. I feel very good things as they stand now and i'm in the minority on both points on these forums but that's ok!

[PermaNoobie]

 

Jesus Christ, this thread is a circle jerk. It's gonna play out like it plays out. I feel very good things as they stand now and i'm in the minority on both points on these forums but that's ok!

 

 

Well yeah, it's going to play out like it plays out, socially, financially, legally, artistically, all that.

 

As individuals, we are all mintority and each guys' experiences are going to be different even if people agree on certain aspects. Doesn't have to be a one-size-fits-all type scenario.

It probably won't be. A couple of guys were talking about not being able to discover new music on the radio and then talking about discovering new music on the radio, but on particular stations, and not on others. That's part of the thing, markets can be fragmented and not all ways of doing things are going to be the same. An early music ensemble of people in their 40 and 50s might very well have to take a different approach than a punk band in their early 20s who might have to take a different approach than a musical theatre up-and-comer who might have to take a different approach than a guy that is scoring music for video games.

[BlueStrat]

Jesus Christ, this thread is a circle jerk. It's gonna play out like it plays out. For me, being a full time music guy, I study this full time and i'm very interested in this subject. The bottom line is BE EXCELLENT! For me, My goal is to be as good or better than the other songwriters and performers who do what I do in town. If I can attain this goal, It leads to work. It's that simple. I've got 23 years experience and I work at this very hard everyday. I feel very good things as they stand now and i'm in the minority on both points on these forums but that's ok!

 

 

True enough. I just like to be a observer. My time is past, I'm done trying to be anything, and I'm okay with it. But I still like to try to figure out where stuff is headed and what's wrong with things happening now. I like working with younger people to help them. I get tired of them going out and playing crap hole dives for next to nothing simply because they don't know what else to do.

I recently started playing electric guitar for this gal- we do a duo and a band, all her own songs, and I'm helping her arrange her stuff, and teaching her how to book, promote, etc. When she gets to a jumping off point I'll help her find a replacement for me and bow out.

 

[sventvkg]

She's got a lot of promise and it's a good time for her to get out there but you know in her genre it's all about touring around..You can play anywhere..Lots of house concerts are nice and pay best. I'm glad you're showing some of the younger folks the ropes. Doesn't matter if you don't do it full time anymore man. You're passing on your knowledge and I plan on doing precisely that myself at some point. Keep it up and lets keep the discourse going because we're all interesting in where the love of our lives which is music, is headed!

[BlueStrat]

Yeah, she wants to tour, and my goal is to get her ready to do that with a decent recording, a good band, a legit agent or manager, and at least a rudimentary understanding of what to expect, what to avoid, who to avoid, things to work toward, planning and strategy, realistic goal setting, and so on. Hell, maybe if it works out, I'd even tour a bit with her band. This video was recorded in a friend's living room at the spur of the moment. When she plays gigs, she really shines and lights up a crowd. One night last month after we played a band gig while we were packing up our gear, she was working the crowd and people kept asking her to play more so she grabbed her acoustic, hopped up on the bar and did a 3 song encore. The whole place went nuts. I thinks he has that "something" that's hard to quantify. She just needs some nuts and bolts things to help her channel it.

[mikedavid00]

 

She's got a lot of promise

 

 

I wouldn't say that. If you are talking about big label, radio play promise, I don't see it in the cards.

 

What I do KNOW is that she has youth, is a female, and can get bookings. For this she'll need help and be able to take direction.

 

That's where problems start. Do you think her goals are to tour and work or just get signed and famous?

 

You think these artists are down to earth and easy to work with? Especially young artists like her? Lol.. HECK NO

[mikedavid00]

 

I thinks he has that "something" that's hard to quantify.

 

 

This is what I keep saying. She has youth, and she's a female. The local crowd will always like it. But I wouldn't say she has a 'magic' like a Taylor Swift or something. Try to get her to sell tickets to see her or get FM radio play and that's a WHOLE other story.

 

Man you should set realistic expectation of touring and the work involved. Her song isn't great, she's not tall, she's a not a country dixie diva either. Just set realistic expectation. Being older you should do this. She CAN tour though. That's where she has the leg up on everyone else. she needs to tour to build her fan base if she's good with the crowd.

 

And good luck with communicating these things to her. You'll find she probably only wants stars. Then you'll see what i've been talking about.

[BlueStrat]

You know, I was going to tell you a few things, but then I realized what a colossal waste of time it is. You have it all figured out based on one video of a chick playing one song (she has written over 50) in her living room. She's just starting out on trying t become a full timer, but I'll let her know she's no Taylor Swift.

 

Oh, and welcome to my ignore list.

[richardmac]

I looked for stats but the best I could find was 2008 - the average household income in 2008 was 50,303. Keep in mind that includes single households as well as households where both people work. Not that it has a lot to do with this discussion but it did come up earlier.

 

This entire FORUM is a big circle jerk, really. That's pretty obvious. We just love to talk about this stuff. It makes us little artists feel like it's the system that's bad, that we're all super talented and we would be millionaires if it weren't for (insert excuse here.)

 

You know what we are? We are the 16 year old kid with the flannel and t-shirt that is standing to the side of the dance floor watching all the kids dance and telling each other that we're too cool to dance, that we're glad we're not out there looking stupid. The only problem is, THAT'S WHERE THE GIRLS ARE. Instead of being in here bitching, we should be over in Backstage With The Band reading the groupie thread.

 

And the majority of us LOVE music. In a way this environment is really unhealthy for us because it focuses on the negative and we all get sucked up into it. Over and over.

 

In some other forums I visit, this doom and gloom talk doesn't exist, because they're too busy talking about which microphone is best to record female vocals, or whether Texas Special pickups suck or sound great. (I think they sound great.)

 

I either practice material or try to write new material every night. I love it.

 

This sounds like I'm pissed off and negative, but I'm actually in a good mood as I type this. I don't know all the reasons I keep coming back here. But aside from hoping in vain to find answers, I think it's also because a lot of folks here are just like me. I'd love to sit down at a bar with BlueStrat one day and throw back a couple of beers, or do a 12 bar blues jam. I'll argue with some of the other forum regulars here and call them out if I don't agree with something, but I really enjoy everyone's opinion.

 

OK, now we can go back to bitching about how you can't make a living doing original music again.

[PermaNoobie]

EDIT : I posted useless math info, but this isn't a math forum, so I erased it.

 

 

As far as the young performer in the video, I leave it to those working with her to comment on her character, goals and attitude

[sventvkg]

 

I wouldn't say that. If you are talking about big label, radio play promise, I don't see it in the cards. What I do KNOW is that she has youth, is a female, and can get bookings. For this she'll need help and be able to take direction. That's where problems start. Do you think her goals are to tour and work or just get signed and famous? You think these artists are down to earth and easy to work with? Especially young artists like her? Lol.. HECK NO

 

 

Listen man, respectfully, you AIN'T getting what we are talking about. We aren't talking about big label lady gaga {censored}. I'm talking about the singer songwriter circuit which DOES EXIST where people tour, play house concerts, sell albums, get AAA, college and Public Broadcasting airplay, gain a following and make a living. That's what this chick should go for. There is alot more than the major label {censored} happening out there. In fact that's the smallest fraction of the music business.

[sventvkg]

You know, I was going to tell you a few things, but then I realized what a colossal waste of time it is. You have it all figured out based on one video of a chick playing one song (she has written over 50) in her living room. She's just starting out on trying t become a full timer, but I'll let her know she's no Taylor Swift. Oh, and welcome to my ignore list.

 

Pat, he's not getting it. He only seems to talk about the major label business which is DYING. HE just doesn't understand that yet. No worries. Tell me more about her bro because i'm sure I know people in the NW on that circuit that i can hook her up with. Get her gigging in Portland, Seattle, SLC, Boise, NCAL, etc....

[BlueStrat]

 

Pat, he's not getting it. He only seems to talk about the major label business which is DYING. HE just doesn't understand that yet.

 

Indeed. I'd love to know what tis twat would have said about Lucinda Williams or Paula Nelson. Tabbi may be new to trying to make a living a this but she isn't new to performing and the singer/songwriter circuit is exactly her plan. If he were remotely interested in a big record label deal, she'd have gone the Nashville or pop music route and certainly not become a singer/songwriter!

 

 

 

 

Tell me more about her bro because i'm sure I know people in the NW on that circuit that i can hook her up with. Get her gigging in Portland, Seattle, SLC, Boise, NCAL, etc....

 

 

Excellent. Whe she gets near that point I'll contact you through here.

[sventvkg]

Pat, there's a HUGE singer songwriter scene here in Nashville that's decidedly NOT the mainstream pop country thing. It's more the lucinda, Steve Earle thing. Killer killer talent! When the time comes and your friend wants to venture out this way I'd love to sit down and write some tunes with her

[mikedavid00]

When the time comes and your friend wants to venture out this way I'd love to sit down and write some tunes with her

 

That's the problem. Everyone wants a 'piece' of her. This effects ego unfortunately and then allows her to start asking questions 'who are you?'. You will answer I am x, y, z and can help. She'll think.. well.. you can't get me signed etc etc so I'm not going to deal with you. What you REALLY should be asking her is, "No. Who are YOU?" back to her.

 

In reality though, we probably both know that her songs need work and that you can help her make them better. I already know. The problem is ultimately her ego and if she's willing to accept your help or not. What do you think the answer is?

 

I am going through the very same things with artists right now. I am older, more experienced, and know what the radio wants and what make a good song. The problem is the artist has so many people that want a 'piece' of them, that they really believe they must be special. This girl has never toured, is not the greatest singer, isn't a star, and her songs need help. She needs YOUR help in order to HELP HERSELF.

 

I'm trying to ask BlueStrat if he really things that she's just going to take his advice. GOOD LUCK! You think she's going to tour just because she can? Lol we'll see about that. I would wager. I would bet. 100/1 that she's happy writing songs, being told how great she is, and won't move unless a label calls. I would bet everything on that.

 

The young artists these days.. well.. why not let a real industry insider tell you what I'm going to say next.. don't think I'm making this stuff up:

[Cliftonb]

 

I am going through the very same things with artists right now. I am older, more experienced, and know what the radio wants and what make a good song.

 

 

No disrespect, but I severely doubt that considering your disastrously ill-informed assessment of a fellow forum members music. Who even listens to the radio anymore? I haven't as so much looked at a radio dial in 10 years.

 

You're an anonymous internet no-name with zero proof of any major projects you've produced or had a hand in. If anything has come out of this, it's the realization of how utterly gracious the people here at HCF are for even giving you the time of day.

[sventvkg]

 

That's the problem. Everyone wants a 'piece' of her. This effects ego unfortunately and then allows her to start asking questions 'who are you?'. You will answer I am x, y, z and can help. She'll think.. well.. you can't get me signed etc etc so I'm not going to deal with you. What you REALLY should be asking her is, "No. Who are YOU?" back to her. In reality though, we probably both know that her songs need work and that you can help her make them better. I already know. The problem is ultimately her ego and if she's willing to accept your help or not. What do you think the answer is? I am going through the very same things with artists right now. I am older, more experienced, and know what the radio wants and what make a good song. The problem is the artist has so many people that want a 'piece' of them, that they really believe they must be special. This girl has never toured, is not the greatest singer, isn't a star, and her songs need help. She needs YOUR help in order to HELP HERSELF. I'm trying to ask BlueStrat if he really things that she's just going to take his advice. GOOD LUCK! You think she's going to tour just because she can? Lol we'll see about that. I would wager. I would bet. 100/1 that she's happy writing songs, being told how great she is, and won't move unless a label calls. I would bet everything on that. The young artists these days.. well.. why not let a real industry insider tell you what I'm going to say next.. don't think I'm making this stuff up: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XvIKTkHeulM&t=28s

 

 

No dude...You don't get it. That's what we do in Nashville..We get together and write songs. I certainly don't need her nor do I want a piece of her. We just like to get together and write! It's kinda what we are into in this songwriting community. It's how we meet and make a lot of friends too.

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

Yes, but anything played through a cell phone speaker sounds like ass, doesn't it? But your point is a good one, and I will concede that ringtones are big business compared to everything else in the music biz. I wonder if cell phones will eventually have sound on them like a mini- Bose WAVE technology system.

 

 

 

Not only the cell phone sound reproduction is very low quality, but also what people have hooked up to their computers.

 

Ringtone, mp4 and mp3 is between 10% to 90% market share today, depending on the country, e.g. in Switzerland with a very dense antenna structure, 85% of all music in 2010 was sold to mobile clients, or in China with 550 million mobile user, we sell more then 100 million mp4 and mp3 per week.

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

Btw, China has a huge demand for music. Chinese are very curious what all the music is out in the big world they never heard. Chinese don't know 0.1% of the music we consumed in the West in the last 80 years. They know "Hotel California" and Elvis, and that's it. Recently Deep Purple performed in China, and because nobody knows who Deep Purple is, they had to play in a 300 seat club.

[richardmac]

Yes and ringtones is all you're going to sell in China, because 95% of the music CD's sold there are illegal copies. They don't even try to stop it - it's on every street corner. The chinese artists make all their money doing concerts... lots and lots and lots and lots of them. But you're right, with them not knowing our huge catalog, it's too bad American artists can't cash in on that. Actually they could... if their music gets bootlegged there enough and gets promoted, they could probably perform some huge shows. That's totally possible.

[Barber Surgeon]

Sorry to just jump in here, but...

 

I give away my music freely because I have no interest in selling it. I absolutely agree that an artifact such as a CD or vinyl is a product, but when it comes to downloading, you're more or less getting the essence of the song. That is something I cannot and have no desire to put a price on. Having listeners is an important part of being a musician, but for me, the true reward is the live ritual. If people hear you're a good band with a unique intensity, they will come around. Having the music available to them is one way to bring them closer during the live experience. I am a musician with living ideals expressed through music; my recordings are not. They are inert. They are a vehicle for the message and only that. The songs exist as something outside of recordings. The recordings represent only one manifestation.

 

Another problem I see when I visit this forum, is that we tend to want more than is realistic for our small situations. Some bands are exceptions, but being regionally known as an artist is no less admirable than being a corporate product that reaches millions of houses. Yeah, we all want that grand notoriety, but to me these big acts are often comparable to large chain restaurants. Applebee's tastes the same no matter what part of the world you're at, and (no surprise) the quality of its food suffers from demanding easily and widely replicable results. I'd rather visit a small restaurant, even a regional chain, than the national brands. Why not get a flavor of the local culture?

 

Why not? Because it's being crushed in this country and many other parts in the world. We don't want new things. We don't want there to be places we can go and not feel comfortable. So we smash everything that can't be conglomerized.

 

Having a small, but dedicated fanbase is the most an artist should be able to ask. Anything more is great, but it should be seen as a bonus. Politically minded acts may scale this to the degree that is appropriate, but every band playing generic feel good music in bars and wanting to make it big should realize that no only is there no room for you, but also that just because you hear a band on the radio that's as good or less talented than yours doesn't mean anyone wants you.

 

[/soapbox]

[BlueStrat]

 

Having a small, but dedicated fanbase is the most an artist should be able to ask. Anything more is great, but it should be seen as a bonus.

 

 

That's exactly where I'm at. And it's okay with me and I'm lucky to have what I have. There are some good advantages to being a bigger fish in a smaller pond.

[sventvkg]

I have no problem at all with what you are saying Barber. In fact I have said the same thing many times on these forums. You don't have to be Lady Gaga to be good at what you do. the chances of gaining that kind of notoriety and success these days will be extremely rare.