Woodwind instruments and Guitar note pitch

[mysterybat35]

Hi,

 

I was just wondering is it just me? I find that when someone plays a note on a woodwind instrument , say if someone were to play an Eb on a Saxophone or clarinet, and if someone played an Eb on a Guitar, the pitch seems to be off. Is this true for all woodwind instruments? OR are my ears just playing tricks on me?

 

Here is another example:

 

A school band plays Earth Wind and Fire's Groove tonight, in the same key it was written, but yet it doesn't have the same pitch as when you hear the song on cd.

 

Thanks for your help!!

 

MB35

[mysterybat35]

My reason for asking is because I want to invest in a saxophone but I don't want to have to detune my guitar just to get the same pitch as the saxophone.. You know what I mean?

 

MB35

[walfordr]

For the tuning issue there are a few effects:

 

1) Not all woodwind instruments you buy are intonated well. There are ways to correct them by putting small bits of packing in the holes or filing them on one side etc., but ultimately a cheap instrument may well play out of tune.

 

2) Not all guitars are intonated well. Do a search and you'll find a {censored} load of stuff about how to improve this.

 

3) Even if both instruments are perfect, the temperaments are different. Woodwinds use "just intonation", guitars are "equal tempered". They will never be completely in tune for all notes.

 

There are a number of reasons as to why a CD can be different to the score. They may have tuned their instruments differently or the production process may have changed the pitch for some reason.

[mysterybat35]

Thanks.. that seems to make sense. But ill see what happens once/if I get the sax. If I have to detune something then I guess I'll do what I have to do.

 

MB35

[mongrel876]

You tune a sax by moving the mouthpiece in or out. In to raise pitch and out to lower it. You also control it with your mouth and the tension of your lips and cheeks. Listen to Scofield and his frequent tenor accompianst Joe Lovano for an excellent example of guitar/sax interplay.

[nevermind]

To match the pitch of woodwinds most symphonies/orchestras will tune stinged instruments up a few cents. Standard for these situations is A=442 but I've heard some go as high as A=445

[SteinbergerHack]

 

Originally posted by nevermind To match the pitch of woodwinds most symphonies/orchestras will tune stinged instruments up a few cents. Standard for these situations is A=442 but I've heard some go as high as A=445

 

Huh??? Is this new?

 

20 years ago, when I was playing violin semi-professionally (local symphonies & chamber orchestras), our oboists all carried A440 pitch pipes; they tuned to that, and everyone alse tuned to them.

 

Has it changed that much in just 20 years? [Caveat: I do remember reading that centuries ago, A was a lower pitch, and it has worked its way up over time....]

[Chicken Monkey]

A guitar is a "C" instrument. An alto saxaphone is an "Eb" instrument. A C played on a guitar sounds like a C, and a C played on a saxaphone sounds like an Eb. If you didn't know that, then that is the problem. If you did know that, then I probably have insulted you.

[turnip]

 

Originally posted by Chicken Monkey A guitar is a "C" instrument. An alto saxaphone is an "Eb" instrument. A C played on a guitar sounds like a C, and a C played on a saxaphone sounds like an Eb. If you didn't know that, then that is the problem. If you did know that, then I probably have insulted you.

 

 

What?

[Hunter6]

Originally posted by turnip What?

 

My thoughts exactly.

[SteinbergerHack]

 

Originally posted by mysterybat35 Hi, Is this true for all woodwind instruments? OR are my ears just playing tricks on me?

 

If your issue is the transposition for certain woodwinds, then, no, it's not the same for all. There are Bflat, C, and Eflat instruments. Flute, for example, is a C instrument, so it reads directly into concert pitch. Eb clarinet, however, plays a minor third higher than the written pitch; playing a 'C' on an Eb instrument results in an Eb concert note sounding.

 

Basically, music for Bb and Eb instruments is all transposed. If the strings and flute are playing a song in Bb Major, the Bb instruments' music will be written in C Major, and the Eb instruments' music will be written in G Major. When they all play together, though, it all comes out in Bb Major (concert pitch).

 

Hope this helps.....

[Collapse]

 

Originally posted by SteinbergerHack Eb clarinet, however, plays a minor third higher than the written pitch; playing a 'C' on an Eb instrument results in an Eb concert note sounding.

 

 

Doesn't that just mean you're playing an Eb? Something about this is not making sense to me.

[SteinbergerHack]

 

Originally posted by Collapse Doesn't that just mean you're playing an Eb? Something about this is not making sense to me.

 

 

Yes, you're playing an Eb, but the music you are playing from is written as a 'C', and they teach that you are playing a 'C', which is equivalent to a 'Concert Eb'.

 

It has to do with fingerings and the natural key of the instrument. Example: a Bb and Eb sax will use basically the same fingering for a 'C', but the concert pitch will come out different. This way, the written notes match the fingerings, so it's easier to move from one instrument to another.

[GibsonQC]

 

Originally posted by Collapse Doesn't that just mean you're playing an Eb? Something about this is not making sense to me.

 

 

 

Bands and orchestras usually have many instruments that are built in keys other than C. Horns in F, Trumpets in Bb, Clarinets in Bb and Eb (sometimes in Ab), and so on. What it basically means is that the composer has to write the score in numerous keys to get the sounds to "gel". An instrument's "key" is a result of the pitch that sounds when that instrument plays a written C.

 

When a Bb instrument plays a C on the staff, a Bb comes out of the instrument; if an Eb instrument plays a C on the staff, an Eb comes out. It's one of the first things you learn in orchestration class, but it's a tricky concept to grasp if you've never been in band, orchestra, or done orchestration.

[nevermind]

Originally posted by SteinbergerHack Huh??? Is this new? 20 years ago, when I was playing violin semi-professionally (local symphonies & chamber orchestras), our oboists all carried A440 pitch pipes; they tuned to that, and everyone alse tuned to them. Has it changed that much in just 20 years? [Caveat: I do remember reading that centuries ago, A was a lower pitch, and it has worked its way up over time....]

 

I know our local symphony tunes higher than A440. I have been told A442 and A444, not sure which is accurate or if it differs by performance. It was a surprise to me when I learned it, since I figured 440 was concert pitch since it has been the standard for tuning forever. It got me interested enough to begin reading what I could find on the net about the subject. What I could find was tuning freq has been steadily on the increase in the past few years. Type A444 into a google search and have fun reading.

 

I also know that in the fall last year we purchased a clarinet for our daughter to take lessons and was told specificly to purchase only one tuned to A442. While we were there I was messing with a concert Xylophone and while reading the brochure noticed one of the big selling points on it was that it is tuned A442.

 

Also this from the web: " Many of today's orchestras tune to "A" at 444 Hz, and the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra lead the field with their own concert pitch "A" at 447 Hz."

 

 

Check out the tuning of the forks listed on the end of this page:

 

http://www.mozartpiano.com/pitch.html

 

A457.2:eek:

[SteinbergerHack]

 

Originally posted by nevermind I also know that in the fall last year we purchased a clarinet for our daughter to take lessons and was told specificly to purchase only one tuned to A442. While we were there I was messing with a concert Xylophone and while reading the brochure noticed one of the big selling points on it was that it is tuned A442. Also this from the web: " Many of today's orchestras tune to "A" at 444 Hz, and the Berlin Philharmonic Orchestra lead the field with their own concert pitch "A" at 447 Hz."

 

 

Interesting - I've gotta check this out.....

[mysterybat35]

I was thinking about getting a Soprano Sax. MOST I have seen say they are F#. So would an F# on a guitar sound like an F# on the soprano sax?

 

MB35

[Frets99]

Makes me glad I learned to play by ear!!!

 

 

It is a hard concept to grasp at first. I ran into it trying to converse with an F# sax player. Confronted with me telling him what key the song was in, he'd sigh, look at me and say just play...I'll find it.