Bass Direct: How to Make it Cut

[Myramyd]

I've been having issues with bass sounds in the mix as well. I tried out the Ampeg SVX demo and really liked it (played by itself). My question for those who have it is--how does it sound/sit in the mix? I've also considered getting a Sansamp RBI instead, so I have a longer lasting piece of hardware I don't have to update every year. Any further thoughts on this?

 

I probably want to update my bass as well. Thinking about an Amer Jazz or a Gibson SG bass (I have smaller hands). Right now I have a Schecter and it sounds great live but a little thin in the mix at times.

 

PS-- To Dean Roddey--I first bought a Roland Handsonic to "play" drums in the studio (somewhat similar to a ZenDrum) and found it to be even less intuitive than banging the keyboard or pads when playing a drum set. (It's great for percussion though). So I ended up squeezing room for a Roland TD-3 kit and am far happier. It takes me almost no time to record a drum part, where with the Handsonic or keyboard would take forever to get it right. If you are a wiz with your fingers you might be okay though!

[Dean Roddey]

The keyboard is a very bad way to play drums, definitely. The padKontrol isn't completely bad, it's just not laid out in a way that's conducive to playing as a real instrument. I'm sure the ZenDrum is going to require learning just like learning any other instrument before I'll really get really comfortable with it. The other issue of course is that by the time you look at what's a really high quality e-kit, with mesh heads and with all the control you need to map all of the hit variations that BFD provides, you are talking about quite a bit more money.

[Myramyd]

I use DFHS and just program in any nuances or special hits or variations after the fact if needed, since I can bang out a beat quickly with the TD3 set. It's been real nice. But I hear you.

 

Dean, from your experience how do you like the Ampeg SVX software in a mix?

[Dean Roddey]

So far so good, but I am just now getting beyond the low hanging fruit stage and really learning how to get some good tones. I'm sure it would be better with a better bass as well. But my experiments over the last few days have convinced me that I can do good stuff with what I've got.

It just takes so long to really find good tones because it's a combination of so many things that all interact. The bass pickup/EQ settings, the pre-amp settings, the hi/lo-z DI setting, which pickup you play over, how you finger it, compression before and/or after the amp sim, the mic selection, near or far micing, on/off axis, the cabinet selection, the amp selection, the many and various amp settings, etc...

There are so many variations that you can get lost in them. And it's quite possible that at any point you were just a knob twist away from a great tone or a big improvement anyway, but didn't twist the right knob, and twisted the wrong one instead and never made it back there.

[Myramyd]

Agreed. Bass is a big challenge.

 

The bass guitar has been a huge gotcha for me in mixing for some reason. It just never works right, probably for the reasons you list. I think the tips earlier in this thread are great and I'm going to refer back to them the next time. It just seems the tone of the bass is SO touchy and inconsistent throughout any track. I've pretty much resorted to a brick wall limiter with near extreme EQ just so I can move on! Luckily I'm not to any final mixing yet, so I have plenty of time to fix later.

 

I too am wondering if a better quality bass would fix some of this. Although one of the problem tracks was a DI Music Man bass. It has virtually zero treble or high mids, which seems strange to me. I think the bassist had the treble knob rolled off but he insists it wasn't. Another story...

[Dean Roddey]

I think you are definitely better off leaving the sound of the bass fairly even, i.e. plenty of highs and lows and selectively getting rid of what you don't want in the amp, since you have more control there, or worst case with an EQ after the amp sim. You can generally find the fret rattle frequency and notch it down to minimize that, if it's an issue, and roll of the highs as needed. But if you get a dull tone out of the bass, there's probably not much you can do after that.

What I'm finding is good is to use mostly towards the neck pickup, and with the Ibanez it's more complicated because of a 'sweep' control, which is kind of an overall low/high rolloff thingie, but the with the sweep a little more towards the brighter side. That gives me a good tone out of the bass since the neck pickup is rounder and less prone to transmitting rattle, but with the sweep knob brightening it up.

Then into the SVT-Pro amp, where I pull down the 600 and 900 EQ filters, pretty low and the 10K one all the way down, and the 2500 down a bit since the fret rattle tends to be around there, and the 5K left alone for the bite. I may pull the bass tone down a bit but leave the mid/treble neutral. I push up the gain a good bit and pull down the master, so that it as a lot of drive.

I use the 8x10 or 1x15 cabinet with the Vintage 20 or 421 mic, on axis and close.

I put a Waves C1 after the amp sim, with a 20 to 40ms attack according to how much I want to make it more punchy, with the release in the same range, a ratio in the 4 to 6x range. This will let some to most of the attack through, then pull down after that to emphasize the attack more or less.

I'm using the Solo/610 as mentioned and it seems to do best, for me on the bass anyway, using less tube drive. More seems to thicken it up too much and gets it muddy and pushes the low end too much. My bass has active electronics so I generally use the hi-z setting on the pre-amp's DI input. I should though play more with using lo-z on it and see what happens.

If the player is good, or at least restrained, I think you should be able to get away with out a limiter. But if they really bash away you may need it I guess. You can always set it just to really clamp down only when it's danger of driving the amp sim too hard, putting the limiter before the amp sim, and setting it for a short release, like 10ms or 12ms or something like that, just so it'll clamp down on the initial attack if it's too high. The really bad peak is usually over really quickly. Then put the compressor after the amp sim to control the dynamics.

Anyway, that's working well for me in my recent expriments. I may later decide it still sucks, I dunno. It doesn't need to have the lows rolled off to avoid being overbearing in the low end, and it has enough punch and attack but it isn't sitting all over everything with plenty of space in the mid-range left free for other things to slot into. It has heft but isn't bloated.

I think that definitely there are limits that only a different/better bass will get around. If you want a growly sound, you probably need a growly sounding bass. Some basses have a nice growl when you play them a little hard, and others just have horrible fret rattle I think. Mine rattles pretty badly if played too hard, so I have to have a fairly light touch. I see these folks on stage just banging the bejeebers out of the bass and wonder how they keep it sounding good. Of course they may be using heavier gauge strings that are much tighter and higher action, and therefore less likely to rattle. I use lighter gauge strings and fairly low action (for a bass anyway.)

One thing you have to often do is go through first before putting any compression on it and put a gain envelope on it and knock down any obvious big peaks manually. This way, you aren't using the limiter and compressor to control volume, but are using to control dynamics which is what you really want. It can work wonders to smooth out a performance in a way that's very controlled and lets the compressor work much less harder.

[Myramyd]

Okay, thanks for the advice. I appreciate it. I will take those things into account next time around.

 

I do like a good healthy growl in the bass for sure. So far the only thing I have that will do that is a cheap P-Bass knockoff silly enough. It sounded excellent with the SVX plug. It's almost unplayable though.

 

I think I will try starting with an instrument upgrade and rebuild from there. I'm hoping to try out a Jazz bass (Geddy Lee growl) and SG bass (for the shorter scale--and for the Jack Bruce vibe) and see if I like the straight tones of either better. Might even try a P-Bass as well to add to one of these.