Need help with mix, effects

[hogger]

Hello everyone. This is my first visit to the "In The Studio Trenches" forum. I've recorded lots of stuff over the decades, but I've never been serious enough about it to delve into much beyond laying down tracks, doing a rough mixdown, and calling it done.

 

My latest song and recording attempt is here:

 

http://soundclick.com/share?songid=8765630

 

I'm anxious to learn more, and would really love to get some (painfully if need be) honest advice regarding the mix, effects, EQ, choice of drum samples, or anything else you all have to say about it.

 

Thanks very much for any help.

[hogger]

I can only assume that the lack of response means that I've achieved perfection!

 

Nobody's got nuthin?

 

From reading here I've since (since being since I mixed this song) learned that rolling the highs off of instruments can de-emphasize them, put them into the back just a tad. I'm thinking that's what I needed to do to my drums in this song. I was shooting for drums that were barely noticable, but those crash cymbals are so bright and clean that they always jump out. I'm thinking I need to roll the highs off the drums. And maybe on the nylon a little bit too in the parts where I'm strumming it.

 

Is that a common problem with nylon recording -- if the guitarist ever decides to strum it, the EQ needs change dramatically when compared to what's needed for the finger plucking.

[speierg]

Hogger,

 

Hey man...I've seen you over in the songwriting forums and that is where I "hang out" most often. So, I'm not a regular poster over here in the recording forums, but I thought I'd take a shot at giving you some feedback nonetheless (take it all with a grain of salt for sure). I'm listening on headphones here, so that should also be factored in.

 

Let me start by saying that I really like what you've done here. This is a very nce song and to my ears, it's been well recorded/produced. The acoustic guitar sounded, well, not sure how to describe it...at times it has a bit of that "quacky" sound that you sometimes get from piezo pickups...in other places it sounded just a little bit brittle to me...like the low-mids were cut out a bit too much. During the strummed parts, that seems to work fine in the overall mix, but during the more delicate passages, I was wanting a bit more warmth (hate to use that word) from the guitar. Some of the finger-squeaks almost sound like percussion...maybe this is where the "brittle" idea popped into my head. Perhaps this is a mic technique issue? EQ? Not sure.

 

The harmonica sounds spot on to me. Nicely done. I'm getting ready to add harmonica to one of my own songs and I'd be very happy to get it sounding like the one here.

 

I like the drum tones...sounds are kinda jazzy/old-school...not too much ringing from the snare. I'm not hearing much in the way of a kick...but in this song, I'm also not missing it...the sparse drums fit just right. The kick comes in briefly around 2:20 and sounds good for it's short appearance.

 

The piano has a nice dark sound to it. Again, kind of an old-school sound that really fits this song, which to me has a bit of a Van Morrison type of vibe going on.

 

Vocals...I like the tone. Sounds like you've got things EQ'd just right. The vocal sits very nicely in the mix. No harsh sibilance...no over-compression...sounds good. There are a few notes here and there that aren't dead perfect, but I'm totally cool with that...again, it contributes to the overall vibe of the song to not make it too perfect.

 

On first listen, I thought that maybe I would have tried to get away with a tiny bit less reverb, but after listening 6 or 7 times I'm not sure I would suggest that now.

 

Very well done here man! Wish I could offer more constructive help.

[UstadKhanAli]

 

Nobody's got nuthin?

 

 

I do most of my posting at work, and I can't really listen to things here.

 

 

From reading here I've since (since being since I mixed this song) learned that rolling the highs off of instruments can de-emphasize them, put them into the back just a tad. I'm thinking that's what I needed to do to my drums in this song. I was shooting for drums that were barely noticable, but those crash cymbals are so bright and clean that they always jump out. I'm thinking I need to roll the highs off the drums.

 

 

That would certainly help, as often de-emphasizing the highs or rolling them off can make something sound more "distant" or seemingly change the spatial relationship (IOW, giving the illusion of different placement). Also, sometimes, especially with digital recording, not having things have really sharp transients can help sink it in to the mix as much, especially with things like drums.

 

 

 

And maybe on the nylon a little bit too in the parts where I'm strumming it. Is that a common problem with nylon recording -- if the guitarist ever decides to strum it, the EQ needs change dramatically when compared to what's needed for the finger plucking.

 

 

So much so that I would consider tracking the strumming parts separately so I could mic it differently as well as address it differently. However, you can always move the strummed part to a different track and treat it differently there, of course, which I'm sure you've done already.

[hogger]

Thanks speierg and ustadkhanali for the comments!

 

Moving just the strummed nylon sections over to another track makes great sense. I hadn't considered it, but it sounds like something straight out of "Multitracking 201" class, whereas I'm just now finishing up "Multitracking 102." If I've got the tracks to spare on my little Boss BR600, I'll be using the hell out'a that trick.

[Lee Knight]

I like this song.

 

The harmonica really is perfect. I pretty much agree with everything speierg said. Try a mic and not the pickup in your guitar. I'd mute those stick clicks from the drummer early on, or turn them way down. That's a little out of perspective.

 

And the singing. You sound good. I think you need to determine where your strengths are as a singer and go there. There are some passages that aren't really something you sound comfortable pulling off. I'd re-route those to your range. Really, when you're singing within your comfort zone, you sound very real and sincere. It's good.

 

Play off of that. Nicely done.

[hogger]

Thanks for the comments Lee!

 

When you say "those stick clicks", are you talking about the clicks in the very beginning, in the first couple of chords of the guitar intro? If so, those aren't stick clicks, they're fret noise. I'm thinking you're right about using a mic rather than the piezo in my guitar, that would solve a lot or EQ and noise problems. However, it will create some problems too. I live in an apartment, and it's SO easy to plug into the guitar and keep getting takes until I get it "just so". If I do this with a mic then I'll have to deal with the noise from the family. When I record vocals I usually wait til everyone's gone. Nevertheless, I'm looking forward to recording this guitar with my condenser mic, rather than the piezo. I think it will wind up sounding much more like what I hear when I write the songs.

 

About the passages that sound like I'm not comfortable pulling off, which ones are you talking about? Is it the high notes at the end of the verse phrases ("I never meant, to cause this much pain"), or some other phrase?

[speierg]

 

When you say "those stick clicks", are you talking about the clicks in the very beginning, in the first couple of chords of the guitar intro? If so, those aren't stick clicks, they're fret noise. I'm thinking you're right about using a mic rather than the piezo in my guitar, that would solve a lot or EQ and noise problems. However, it will create some problems too. I live in an apartment, and it's SO easy to plug into the guitar and keep getting takes until I get it "just so". If I do this with a mic then I'll have to deal with the noise from the family. When I record vocals I usually wait til everyone's gone. Nevertheless, I'm looking forward to recording this guitar with my condenser mic, rather than the piezo. I think it will wind up sounding much more like what I hear when I write the songs.

 

 

Ahhh, so you were using your piezo pickup...glad my ears aren't totally worthless. When I was saying that the string squeaks sounded like percussion, this is what I meant...almost sounded like a drumstick on a rim at times. I think you'll like the results you'll get by tracking your guitar with a condenser mic. It might not be a bad idea to also keep it plugged in and track the pick-up at the same time. Then you'd have the option of blending those two sounds together to see what you could come up with tone-wise. In the end, you might not blend any of the pick-up into the final product, but better to give yourself that option if you have the inputs to do so.

[Lee Knight]

 

Thanks for the comments Lee! When you say "those stick clicks", are you talking about the clicks in the very beginning, in the first couple of chords of the guitar intro? If so, those aren't stick clicks, they're fret noise. I'm thinking you're right about using a mic rather than the piezo in my guitar, that would solve a lot or EQ and noise problems. However, it will create some problems too. I live in an apartment, and it's SO easy to plug into the guitar and keep getting takes until I get it "just so". If I do this with a mic then I'll have to deal with the noise from the family. When I record vocals I usually wait til everyone's gone. Nevertheless, I'm looking forward to recording this guitar with my condenser mic, rather than the piezo. I think it will wind up sounding much more like what I hear when I write the songs. About the passages that sound like I'm not comfortable pulling off, which ones are you talking about? Is it the high notes at the end of the verse phrases ("I never meant, to cause this much pain "), or some other phrase?

 

 

 

Ah, finger noise. You can try Finger Ease. That works great for that.

 

So the singing. Anytime you go for a more complex or busy run with your voice, you almost get it. But not quite.

 

 

...to cause this much

 

Bottomless hole

 

 

Those bits could be done simpler. To me, it always more important to execute "simple", done well. As opposed to a good but more complex idea that might not be pulled off as well. It's an important concept in recording your music. To hear with the audience's ear.

 

I mean,Dylan's not trying any Ella riffs for a reason. And it still works for him. Or Willie or Cobain or whoever.

 

I mentioned to you on your songwriting demo of this that I liked your voice. I do. There's a sincerity to it that's really cool. I'm really hearing it in those opening phrases in particular. Try to get that quality of execution in all you vocals. If you can't, then you back off on the complexity of the run until you'll nail it with that sort of ease and assured vibe.

[UstadKhanAli]

 

Thanks speierg and ustadkhanali for the comments! Moving just the strummed nylon sections over to another track makes great sense.

 

 

Well, cool, I'm glad I mentioned it then!!! I almost didn't!!!

 

The other alternative, which to me is far more of a pain in the rear, is to automate your EQ, compression, etc. so that it differs for each section. But for me, it's way easier to simply move the different parts to a different track.

[hogger]

Lee -- THANKS! Your comments about "this bottomless hole" are dead on. I hadn't noticed it in the kazillion times I've listened to it, but sho nuff I didn't sing what I thought I sang. I was hearing a fancy soulful stepping down "hole", whereas in the non-fantasy world outside my head, it glissando'd down. I definitely get what you're saying about executing "simple" being MUCH more preferable than halfway executing "complex." Back to work I go on it...

[Synonym Music]

Well, cool, I'm glad I mentioned it then!!! I almost didn't!!! The other alternative, which to me is far more of a pain in the rear, is to automate your EQ, compression, etc. so that it differs for each section. But for me, it's way easier to simply move the different parts to a different track.

I agree. If you have the processing overhead to do so and the automations are getting a bit thick, it's easier to copy and slide the differently treated part in on a separate track. When I start hitting 5 automatable parameters plus in Reaper, the track starts getting cluttered and I start not wanting to work on it...

 

The rest of these comments are spot on. Hitting those Gs a bit flat on the vocals when the piano goes back up to C major (?) does throw the song off more than need be.

[Spleencage]

try micing the guitar behind the strum hand and another sort of off-axis to the hole to reduce fret squeek.