Members Foozman Posted January 22, 2007 Members Share Posted January 22, 2007 What's the correlation between the 2?Let's say i have a 5W amp head (such as the Epi Valve Jr. head or similar). What's the relationship between that rating and that of the speaker in the cab in plug into (say a 50W rated Celestion speaker in an 112 cab, vs. a 100W 2x12). What does the 50W really mean? What effect does it have on the 5W head? Is the point at which the amp overdrives a factor of BOTH components? Or only the head? Explanations much appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Prages Posted January 22, 2007 Members Share Posted January 22, 2007 It means the head is capable of putting out 5 clean watts. The speaker is capable of handling 50 continuous watts before the speaker blows. Running a 5 watt amp into a 50 watt speaker is fine. Running a 50 watt amp into a 5 watt speaker is not a good idea. Make sure the impedance of the speaker matches the amp. IE, if your speaker is 16 ohms, make sure you have the amp set to 16 ohms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Foozman Posted January 22, 2007 Author Members Share Posted January 22, 2007 Right I know about the impedance part. Thanks for the info though. I guess what I'm wondering is how does the 5W into 50W speaker affect the point at which the amp overdrives (if at all). Will it overdrive sooner if the 5W is pushing a 20W speaker? (or is it irrelevant?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members datru Posted January 22, 2007 Members Share Posted January 22, 2007 Right I know about the impedance part. Thanks for the info though. I guess what I'm wondering is how does the 5W into 50W speaker affect the point at which the amp overdrives (if at all). Will it overdrive sooner if the 5W is pushing a 20W speaker? (or is it irrelevant?) I'm interested in this too. Is this what is meant when someone suggests plugging an amp into an"inefficient speaker?" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ryan Trevisol Posted January 22, 2007 Members Share Posted January 22, 2007 Well when you plug a 5 watt amp into a 2x12, even with it cranked to the max, you won't get that sound of the amp pushing the speaker to overdrive. There's a certain sound you get from pushing evenly-matched speakers and amps. It's subtle. So if you're not looking for that, go ahead. As a matter of fact, my Tech 21 trademark 10-watt has a 35-watt rated 8" speaker and I'm shortly going to be building a 1x12 combo for it, with a 50 or 75-watt speaker in it. Don't expect the speakers to make your amp much louder though. Maybe a teeny bit but not much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Foozman Posted January 22, 2007 Author Members Share Posted January 22, 2007 I'm not really looking for loud. I'm a bedroom player anyway. I'm looking for nice pleasing OD tube tone (as best possible) at reasonable volumes.Would I be better off with, say, a Peavey Classic 30 amp vs a 5W epi valve jr head pushing a 1x12 Avatar cab with a 30W speaker? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ryan Trevisol Posted January 22, 2007 Members Share Posted January 22, 2007 Hmm . . . well there's an apples to oranges comparison. A Peavey Classic 30 is NOT a bedroom amp. I love it as an amp, it's probably the most compatible single amp with the tone that's in my head, but it's loud, and it sounds best at above-bedroom levels (I'm a bedroom player too). See this thread for some ideas of low-watt tube amps, some with 12" speakers. As you can tell by what I said before, I'm a fan of 12" speakers on low-wattage amps. I think one of the main reasons we don't see more SS and Tube practice amps with 12" speakers is cost, not because smaller speakers are inherently better suited to low-wattage amps. I loved my Epi Galaxie 10 (similar to a valve special), but it had an 8" speaker which didn't have the bass response I wanted. Ergo why I bought my Tech 21 with the idea to upgrade it to a 12". So bottom line is, I think practice amps sound better through bigger speakers. But don't buy an amp just because of its speaker size. Cabinets are easy to build and not that expensive to buy. And decent speakers aren't all that expensive either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Foozman Posted January 22, 2007 Author Members Share Posted January 22, 2007 Hmmm.....I keep hearing different things about the Classic 30. everyone seems to love it, but i cant seem to get a feel as to whether it would be ok at bedroom levels or not.Mind you, when i say bedroom, i actually live in a house. So I can get fairly loud. But i dont play out at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GCDEF Posted January 22, 2007 Members Share Posted January 22, 2007 Right I know about the impedance part. Thanks for the info though. I guess what I'm wondering is how does the 5W into 50W speaker affect the point at which the amp overdrives (if at all). Will it overdrive sooner if the 5W is pushing a 20W speaker? (or is it irrelevant?) No. Speaker wattage and amp distortion are unrelated. Lower wattage speakers will add their own speaker distortion sooner, but it doesn't sound like that's what you're talking about. Overdrive comes from the amp. Speaker wattage as mentioned, is only how much power you can safely put into the speaker. Nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GCDEF Posted January 22, 2007 Members Share Posted January 22, 2007 I'm interested in this too. Is this what is meant when someone suggests plugging an amp into an"inefficient speaker?" Inefficient speakers don't produce as much sound from a given wattage as efficient speakers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Psychotronic Posted January 22, 2007 Members Share Posted January 22, 2007 This is a very good question (as opposed to all of the "What's the BEST guitar???" crap we get every other day)! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members datru Posted January 22, 2007 Members Share Posted January 22, 2007 Inefficient speakers don't produce as much sound from a given wattage as efficient speakers. How does one know if a speaker is efficient or not? When looking at specs what should I look for? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members angus_old Posted January 22, 2007 Members Share Posted January 22, 2007 i have a champ (4 ohm) that's got a 10" 8 ohm speaker in it. the date code on the speaker is from 1981 so it's apparently been like that awhile. will it blow up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GCDEF Posted January 22, 2007 Members Share Posted January 22, 2007 How does one know if a speaker is efficient or not? When looking at specs what should I look for? Efficiency or sensitivity. For guitar speakers 97 - 99 is about average. 100 on up is efficient. 96 on down is inefficient. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Prages Posted January 22, 2007 Members Share Posted January 22, 2007 Hmmm.....I keep hearing different things about the Classic 30. everyone seems to love it, but i cant seem to get a feel as to whether it would be ok at bedroom levels or not.Mind you, when i say bedroom, i actually live in a house. So I can get fairly loud. But i dont play out at all. I love my Classic 30, but if all you are using it for is a bedroom/practice amp, it's way more than you need. Yes, it's got a master volume, and yes, you can turn it down to bedroom friendly levels and still get decent tone, but where it really shines is with the volume up to about the level of an average hitting drummer. At that volume, you get just a hint of breakup on the clean channel, and a really nice, thick overdrive from the dirty channel. You don't get those things at bedroom levels from the Classic 30. 5 Watts is even going to be too loud for really quiet bedroom playing if you're wanting real power tube overdrive though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Foozman Posted January 22, 2007 Author Members Share Posted January 22, 2007 I love my Classic 30, but if all you are using it for is a bedroom/practice amp, it's way more than you need. Yes, it's got a master volume, and yes, you can turn it down to bedroom friendly levels and still get decent tone, but where it really shines is with the volume up to about the level of an average hitting drummer. At that volume, you get just a hint of breakup on the clean channel, and a really nice, thick overdrive from the dirty channel. You don't get those things at bedroom levels from the Classic 30. 5 Watts is even going to be too loud for really quiet bedroom playing if you're wanting real power tube overdrive though. Bleh! I keep hearing this (and the opposite opinion too, actually) and it's very discouraging. Some of us are simply too old and too new to this to really have much hope of ever playing out. Why can't I get to enjoy the nice creamy tones at home, like i would from a good recording on my CD player... (Sorry. Had to vent) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Prages Posted January 22, 2007 Members Share Posted January 22, 2007 Bleh! I keep hearing this (and the opposite opinion too, actually) and it's very discouraging. Some of us are simply too old and too new to this to really have much hope of ever playing out. Why can't I get to enjoy the nice creamy tones at home, like i would from a good recording on my CD player...(Sorry. Had to vent) There are little 1/2 watt tube amps on the market that should get you there without being too loud. The Classic 30 isn't overly loud, but it's way too loud to get tube breakup at home unless the people who live with or near you don't care about the noise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ryan Trevisol Posted January 23, 2007 Members Share Posted January 23, 2007 I agree with Prages 100%. I LOVE the classic 30 and would own one but for the fact that it would be a waste. If I ever got into a situation where I played with a drummer and bassist, I would get a classic 30 in a heartbeat. My 5 watt tube amp really shone at its higher levels, and it really wouldn't work at my apartment now, but it was fine when I was at my parents house. So if you have a house, a 5 watter will probably be fine. However, beware the one-dimensional nature of small tube amps, especially class A's. They each have their own sound. Not many of them are able to go from Marshall Crunch to Fender Clean. They usually do one or the other. This is because they generally have only 1 or two preamp tubes and one or two power tubes. So if you're looking for versatility at lower volumes, I would recommend a really good modeling amp, like a Vox Valvetronix, or a Podxt/Spider, or a Tech 21 Trademark 30. All those will sound very good (excellent in my experience with the Tech 21) at lower volumes. It all depends. If, however, you find a low-watt practice tube amp whose tone is what you're looking for, then get it. You'll love the responsiveness and feel of a tube amp. On a personal note, my neighbor apologized for his smoke alarm going off all night today and I never heard it. So I said, "Hey no problem. Do you ever hear my guitar playing?" "No, you play guitar?" Guess I should crank it a little more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Foozman Posted January 23, 2007 Author Members Share Posted January 23, 2007 I agree with Prages 100%. I LOVE the classic 30 and would own one but for the fact that it would be a waste. If I ever got into a situation where I played with a drummer and bassist, I would get a classic 30 in a heartbeat. My 5 watt tube amp really shone at its higher levels, and it really wouldn't work at my apartment now, but it was fine when I was at my parents house. So if you have a house, a 5 watter will probably be fine. However, beware the one-dimensional nature of small tube amps, especially class A's. They each have their own sound. Not many of them are able to go from Marshall Crunch to Fender Clean. They usually do one or the other. This is because they generally have only 1 or two preamp tubes and one or two power tubes. So if you're looking for versatility at lower volumes, I would recommend a really good modeling amp, like a Vox Valvetronix, or a Podxt/Spider, or a Tech 21 Trademark 30. All those will sound very good (excellent in my experience with the Tech 21) at lower volumes. It all depends. If, however, you find a low-watt practice tube amp whose tone is what you're looking for, then get it. You'll love the responsiveness and feel of a tube amp. On a personal note, my neighbor apologized for his smoke alarm going off all night today and I never heard it. So I said, "Hey no problem. Do you ever hear my guitar playing?" "No, you play guitar?" Guess I should crank it a little more. Yeah. Sounds like your entire rant about 5W lost credibility when you said your neighbor couldn't hear you playing In all seriousness though, I do have a POD XTLive...I'm just not that thrilled about all that fancy shmancy stuff. It's fun as a toy more so than anything else, but it lacks that feel you get from "real amps" in my opinion. I'm simply at a loss at this point as to how to best get something simple, yet usable, which will sound pleasant enough (without having to be the end all be all in tone). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ryan Trevisol Posted January 23, 2007 Members Share Posted January 23, 2007 I should mention about my neighbor that I never played my 5-watt amp in my apartment at it's optimum level, it always sounded stifled. I've played in fear up until now. With my 10-watt Trademark 10 (Solid State watts are quieter, I'd say it has about the same volume capacity as the 5-watt tube), the modeling on it allows it to sound like a cranked tube amp without cranking the master volume on it. Anyway, that's not what you're looking for. I'll set it aside. Really, I don't think you're in that bad of a pickle here. What you want is definately doable! Just go try the different tube practice amps out there, and see which one you like! I think you were probably closer to a solution at the beginning of this thread . . . and the answer is yes: You CAN definately get a very nice tone out of a small tube amp with a bigger cab. All that to say go for it. . . . whew. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Foozman Posted January 23, 2007 Author Members Share Posted January 23, 2007 Hehehe! Thanks man. This has been very educational.I do think I'm jonesin for the Epi Valve Jr. head and its recently announced cab. For the record, I current play a Marshall Avt50x (50 SS watts) which i am kinda tired of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jerry_picker Posted January 23, 2007 Members Share Posted January 23, 2007 Right I know about the impedance part. Thanks for the info though. I guess what I'm wondering is how does the 5W into 50W speaker affect the point at which the amp overdrives (if at all). Will it overdrive sooner if the 5W is pushing a 20W speaker? (or is it irrelevant?) There are several things to think about here. "Overdrive" can occur between *any* (and perhaps between multiple) gain stages in an amplifier. The ones most guitarists are familiar with is the overdrive between pre-amp gain stages (as in Marshalls) or between pre-amp and power amp (as in single-ended amps like Champs). However, it is also possible to overdrive a speaker. Ted Weber designs speakers specifically to have this effect, if you read about the difference between the Sig8 and Sig8S, for example. Some of the classic sound of vintage combos is owed in part to speaker contribution to overdrive. My own preference is to have a harder speaker, and get my overdrive from the amp. Also, power rating and efficiency don't necessarily correlate to speaker overdrive; the physical characteristics of the cone and voice coil are more important. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Ronzo II Posted January 23, 2007 Members Share Posted January 23, 2007 Hehehe! Thanks man. This has been very educational. I do think I'm jonesin for the Epi Valve Jr. head and its recently announced cab. For the record, I current play a Marshall Avt50x (50 SS watts) which i am kinda tired of. A master volume mod for the Valve Junior will get you preamp tube distortion at bedroom volumes. Please see www.18watt.com for details. Registration is free, and it's a civilized forum that's pretty newbie-friendly. Valve Junior + $50 worth of parts + 2 hours of time = killer little amp. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members One-armed Alec Posted January 23, 2007 Members Share Posted January 23, 2007 Five tube watts is loud for a bedroom amp, let alone thirty! I use a 5W amp that I built from a kit and no way could I turn that thing up to overdrive levels without attracting the attention of the neighbours/police. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members k bollox Posted January 23, 2007 Members Share Posted January 23, 2007 I want to add to this, overdriving the speaker is really REALLY BAD for the speaker. In fact you can quickly cause a lot of damage to the speaker/voice coil/etc. if your distortion is coming from running too many amp-watts into a low watt-rated speaker. You should be getting ALL of your OD from your Amp and/or pedals, never from your speaker.Here is a good explination of RMS ratings and how they apply to amps/speakers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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