Line 6 Sounds Suck! Line 6 Sounds Are Great!

[Jotown]

Originally posted by MrKnobs The difference is, David Grissom thought of it, created that style, whereas I just copied him.

WIth all due respect; this is why the David Grissom story doesn't prove that a big part of your sound is not in your fingers.

 

Copying on track on one song with the identical gear shows only that greatness can be mimicked (wth the same tools). David Grissom has his own style and of course it can be copied. But I stand by my original statement.

And to the person who said your hands have nothing to do with your sound; you are wrong. Your hands are electric too! I have heard Mark Knolfer play a dozen guitars and they all sound like him. I have heard Hendrix through a Les Paul and it still sounds llike him. Humans are electro magnetic creatures and the electricity that comes out of your fingers does wind up in your guitar sound.

 

 

And in the end all that matters is the result you get using an amp or an emulation. These things are just tools. If you can get what you want out of a Pod (or any other emulation) great. If you need your Marshall stack; thats great as well. What matters is the music you can make; not the theories behind it.

 

There are hundreds upon hundreds of recordings that have been made the last few years using amp emulation and most all who have posted here wouldn't know the difference.

 

And neither does the listener. It connects to them or it does not. Period.

[MrKnobs]

Originally posted by Anderton [b But I do like this sound, to my ears it's a nice combination of "clean distortion" and a little trebly, Yardsbirdsy-kinda edge.

I like the sound in your clip too.

Doesn't sound very tube-y, though. It has a characteristic smeared thin quality that I can't quite describe but have definitely heard many times.

Which just brings me back around to what I said in my initial post: if you like the sound, and it's useful in the context of your tune/mix, then does it really matter if it's digital or tubes?

Terry D.

[MrKnobs]

Originally posted by Jotown WIth all due respect; this is why the David Grissom story doesn't prove that a big part of your sound is not in your fingers. I think it proves exactly that. David Grissom wouldn't sound nearly the same playing through a POD, he'd be the first to say that. Living in Austin, I've had the pleasure of hearing David play though a bunch of different gear over the years. He's always managed to sound like David Grissom, but that's largely a function of the unique choices he makes in his playing (banjo rolls adapted to guitar, lots of chord melodies, power chords with no 3rd, distinctive vibrato, etc). Soundwise, he's been all over the map with the different amps I've seen him using. So I guess it depends on what you mean by "fingers." The fingers he used to sign checks for his old Matchless amps and new BadCat amps had as much to do with his sound as the same fingers bending across the fretboard do. Copying on track on one song with the identical gear shows only that greatness can be mimicked (wth the same tools). David Grissom has his own style and of course it can be copied. But I stand by my original statement. Absolutely his or anyone else's style can be copied, even to the point that a person hearing two clips can't tell which is the real David. But the point was, and IS that he's the original and his style is a moving target. Being able to perfectly play what he's recorded doesn't make the copier David Grissom. But again, even David Grissom can't sound exactly like David Grissom without the right tools. And that's what we're discussing here. And in the end all that matters is the result you get using an amp or an emulation. These things are just tools. If you can get what you want out of a Pod (or any other emulation) great. If you need your Marshall stack; thats great as well. What matters is the music you can make; not the theories behind it. Agreed 100%. The problem is, if you want that edge of breakup sound that overdriven tube amps do so well, or that beautiful, punchy, chimey clean sound that EL34s deliver in Class A configuration, you're going to be messing with your POD 'til the men in white coats come and take you away. Those sounds just aren't in there. There are hundreds upon hundreds of recordings that have been made the last few years using amp emulation and most all who have posted here wouldn't know the difference. Which goes back to my prediction that digital emulation will prevail not because it will ever sound exactly like tube amplifiers, but because people will become accustomed to the sound from hearing it constantly. Tube amp sound will then sound "funny." And neither does the listener. It connects to them or it does not. Period. No argument. Number one thing that sells a tune is the songwriting, number two thing is the vocal performance. Everything else, including the production and guitar tone is way, way down the list. How far down the list varies with the style of music. Obviously is was very important for Stevie Ray Vaughn's guitar tone to be aces, ditto for the Eric Johnsons, Ian Moores, etc.

From my perspective, there are two parts to this discussion.

The first is, as the thread is titled, "Line6 sucks, Line6 is great." "Sucks" and "Great" are subjective so there's no answer to this question, other than to say that taste varies.

The second part is, do emulators sound like guitar amps? The answer to that is, depends. If you want to emulate the cheesy midrangey clean of a Carvin tube amp, the aggressive but distinctively non-chimey clean of a Zinky tube amp, or the wide spacious chorus of a Roland JC-120, I think the answer is "yes."

On the other hand, if you want a POD to produce the lovely chime of a Fender Blackface or BadCat tube amp, or the gentle, clear breakup of a Matchless Chieftain, BadCat CubII, Vox AC30, etc. then the answer for any person who has heard these things side by side (as I have) is clearly "no."

There are also some amp vs POD comparisons in the "maybe" zone. Mesa Boogie overdrive is one comparison I'd put in the maybe zone. Your maybe zone might vary, it's a gray area.

Finally, let me say that I living where I do, and having run live sound and a small studio for 30+ years, I have had the honor to hear some of the world's best guitar players performing and recording through a wide variety of stuff. I can absolutely, positively tell you that guitars and amps make a huge difference to these people's sounds. Most of them are extremely particular about what they play through, which I think indicates that they agree with me that tone isn't all in the fingers.

I'm working on one of those monster guitar guy's album right now. As I mentioned, we recorded the original rhythm tracks with him using a POD. He came in a couple weeks later and replaced all the guitar tracks with a Bogner 4-12 stack that was really freakin' loud. I put a Royer 121 and a Senn E609 in front of it (see attached image).

There's not much comparison between the POD sound and the miked Bogner sound, IMO. Always thinking of the HC forums (and having learned that backing up carefully is really, really important), I have clips from both I can post. I actually spoke with Mr. X and he's OK with this so long as I don't identify him or post any vocal clips.

Now, you could make the point that Mr. X didn't spend very much time tweaking the POD tracks, and you'd be partly right. I say partly because he's a very experienced POD tweaker (he lives in an upscale apartment where he can't use his amp to practice), and, dare I say it, he's a little bit *vain* (or maybe particular is the right word) about his sound. He didn't even want the scratch tracks to sound bad. Not only did he punch in some parts he wasn't happy with (on the scratch tracks!) but he also messed with the POD and some stomp pedals for about an hour before he gave up on the tone and just cut the tracks.

Terry D.

[RockViolin]

Originally posted by Lee Flier Ahh I misunderstood... I thought you meant you were the only one who was saying tone is in the fingers. I guess you were saying you seem to be the only violin player! But no, I don't play the violin, although I did for a couple of years as a kid. My cousin does it properly though... he's recently retired from the Boston Symphony in which he played for 43 years. Are you familiar with Theressa Anderson? She's out of New Orleans and plays some pretty crazy electric violin. Anyhow nice to meet ya!

43 years! That is a great career! And a great band!!

I may have seen Therresa Anderson...something on the tube? But not sure. I'm just getting back into the swing of things. A bad case of whiplash finished my orch. career. Not long ago I developed a way to strap up my electric, which was always near and dear, and its way easier on the neck, so I have that back.

More and more of the electric violin all the time I'm seeing. The more the merrier and room for all!

[RockViolin]

Still wondering...are we making any distinction between the old bean and the new top o' the line Line6? Am I the only one here so far that has had an ear on that? Also, if I put it thru a sweet tube mic pre...is that cheating?

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

we have one TonePort UX2 since weeks...

[mandoman]

Originally posted by RockViolin Still wondering...are we making any distinction between the old bean and the new top o' the line Line6? Am I the only one here so far that has had an ear on that? Also, if I put it thru a sweet tube mic pre...is that cheating?

Good question. I hear many prefer the high gain sounds on the Pod 2.0 over XT. I think everyone agrees that that both are better than 1.0.

[Anderton]

>

 

A lot of people don't. They didn't like the original POD and didn't pay much attention when the xt came along. I think the new version is far more detailed than the old one.

[Anderton]

>

 

Well, that's what I mean by that aggressive, bright quality I associate with AC 30 amps. That's the sound I'm TRYING to get, I think it fits in very well with the Dr. Walker drums and the Rapture step sequenced background.

 

If someone ever asks me to cut a blues track then I suppose I'll try to get a real tube-y sound. Generally, if I use real tubes or some of the "tube emulations," they tend to submerged in a mix with mostly electronic tracks. On the other hand they're FANTASTIC with vocals because I tend to be old school and mix vocals high, so I don't want them too bright, they need to sit back a bit tonally so they don't "stick out" over the other tracks.

 

I think the one thing that's important to remember is that certain gear will have certain signature sounds. A Fender Twin isn't going to sound like an AC 30 just because they both have tubes, and I don't think you could get a Twin to "emulate" an AC 30. So you could post a Fender clip or AC 30 clip and say "I don't think there's any way you could duplicate this," but I could just as easily post 1000 clips from modeling gear that would be equally impossible to duplicate with any other gear, including modeling gear -- I can get sounds from GR2 that I can't get with the TonePort, and vice-versa.

 

As I thought back about this discussion, I realized that I haven't talked about modeling gear ONCE in the context of making it sound like tubes. I have tubes for that It's always been in context of getting great sounds, and how to squeeze great sounds out of modeling gear.

[Rudolf von Hagenwil]

Yes yes, but how is it to get a sound out of a amp simulator with a personalty alike, let's say Stevie Ray Vaughan, or someone else of his caliber?

I mean i brought all this software like amplitube etc. not just to get a relatively flat distortion as it is en vogue lately with contemporary rock bands.

Craig, you remember the VL-1, VL-7 or the VL70-m, this physical modeling was something i liked, 4 yard long clarinets etc.

.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by Anderton I think the one thing that's important to remember is that certain gear will have certain signature sounds. A Fender Twin isn't going to sound like an AC 30 just because they both have tubes, and I don't think you could get a Twin to "emulate" an AC 30. So you could post a Fender clip or AC 30 clip and say "I don't think there's any way you could duplicate this," but I could just as easily post 1000 clips from modeling gear that would be equally impossible to duplicate with any other gear, including modeling gear -- I can get sounds from GR2 that I can't get with the TonePort, and vice-versa.

Yeah, but Fender doesn't make any claim that the Twin "emulates" an AC30. Whereas modeller manufacturers make the claim that they emulate tube amps.

As I thought back about this discussion, I realized that I haven't talked about modeling gear ONCE in the context of making it sound like tubes. I have tubes for that It's always been in context of getting great sounds, and how to squeeze great sounds out of modeling gear.

Yeah but if "great sounds" in your mind happens to equal tubes, then modelling gear isn't going to get you there. But they claim to. I'd venture to say Craig, that the reason you're satisfied with modelling gear is exactly because you're not using it to try to sound like tubes. And I've been saying all along in this discussion... if you're not trying to do that, modellers can indeed be useful. It's the claim that they're the be-all end-all amp replacement that I object to.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by RockViolin Still wondering...are we making any distinction between the old bean and the new top o' the line Line6? Am I the only one here so far that has had an ear on that? Also, if I put it thru a sweet tube mic pre...is that cheating?

I have been making the distinction. And no it's not "cheating" to put it thru a tube mic pre. In fact if you're using single coil or any low gain pickups you might try putting a tube pre BEFORE the POD... that helps a lot because the POD's A->D converters seem to benefit from a strong signal going in.

[Anderton]

>

 

The smearing probably has nothing to do with the preset, but with the 96kbps MP3 format. That's less than 1/3 the resolution of the clip you posted...at that rate, there is no high frequency definition. If you get a chance, render the clip you put online at 96kbps and listen to whether it has the same "smeared" quality. I suspect there will probably be enough smearing to equal the typical presidential election campaign.

[Anderton]

>

 

Why would I want to do that anyway ? There are a lot of good sounds that have nothing to do with tubes.

 

As to the marketing, I think that most companies that do modelling are very clear that there are MODELLING amps. And that fact is that for many people, they DO replace tube amps, either because of price, convenience, sound quality, or that someone feels that even if the modelling device doesn't emulate all elements of tube amplification, it hits the important ones.

 

As long as companies say that they're emulating tube amps, then I don't see a problem with that. If they say they're duplicating a tube amp, then that's clearly not the case.

[Anderton]

So I thought I'd look at the Line 6 site to see exactly what they do claim about the PODxt.

 

They don't claim that it duplicates or replaces tube amps. They basically say that it's really versatile, creates great sounds, offers a lot of flexibility, and is BASED ON (their words, not mine) classic amps.

 

Their slogan at the top of the page is "Fueling Your Creative Freedom," not "We Replace Tube Amps." I would have to say their products do indeed promote creative freedom. That's why I use them. Maybe other companies are claiming "You don't need tubes any more, our stuff does it all and replaces them," and maybe some USERS are saying that, but I don't see Line 6 itself saying that.

[UstadKhanAli]

Originally posted by Anderton Their slogan at the top of the page is "Fueling Your Creative Freedom," not "We Replace Tube Amps." I would have to say their products do indeed promote creative freedom.

 

 

That's one of the best reasons to use them. It's got that, flexibility, convenience, and is not too hard on the pocketbook.

[RockViolin]

Originally posted by Lee Flier I have been making the distinction. And no it's not "cheating" to put it thru a tube mic pre. In fact if you're using single coil or any low gain pickups you might try putting a tube pre BEFORE the POD... that helps a lot because the POD's A->D converters seem to benefit from a strong signal going in.

I have found, and heard from others as well that the XT/Live/Pro sounds better with just about any pedal in front. Arggghh. An impedance issue I presume? My Barbera uses a transducer bridge. Gold plated pickups on either side of each string. The volume knob is always cranked, hmmmm maybe I should rethink that.

[seclusion]

Gawd we're still talking about this... Can't we all agree to disagree that we're all so fortunate to have the ability to have all these amp/speaker simulated combos at our finger tips. I love my XT Live but what I love even more is the new Traynor K4 keyboard amp I'm using along with the XT Live. I have the gain up to 10 on the the (tube) pre on the Traynor. Yes something was missing when I used my Crate solid state garbage heap! But really, being able to quickly check out a tone that someone else has made (seeing how they make tones) that I never thought of before, tweak them for your guitar and away you go! Personally now I couldn't imagine using one amp any more. There's just sooo many simulation ideas out there to try.
It's funny though that there are sure some die hard Tube fans out there which is cool cause... It is...
Just wish they could let us be as passionate about something that works for us and leave it there! I don't think anyone really think Tubes suck! I truly believe the Line 6 stuff is right on the money. Clean, clear, options, multiple ways to edit, cheep but most of all it can get the job done!
I look at it this way as well, the "tube crew" has had over 30-40 years of consistent ways to improve on the tube sound. I suspect Line 6 has just got started! I can't wait to see what comes next But you'll have to stand in line behind me cause I'll be sniffing around there too.
Later
Bri

[RockViolin]

I think that the tube folks will always be able to say that it was tubes and then stuff that came along pretending to be tubes. That browbeats hard for a while and for some very specific sounds they may always be right. Maybe...but the reliability angle weighs heavy. Do transistors sound as vivacious as tubes? Not that I have found. Way, way out...but would you want to fly to the moon with tube gear? Transistors got us there. But before anyone climbs up mah grill on that...I know that was outside... but reliability and convenience of a diifferent sort, and size, and weight do begin to balance the scales.
Its part of the armament for some people I think. Here is my big, beautiful, classic amp. Wow! Its like a classic car. And a little bean box or floor board just looks sad next to that. Sometimes the judgement starts there I think.

[franknputer]

[RockViolin]

Awww. I thought the moon bit was good. quoting myself if anyone.

[Kiwiburger]

IMO, transistors took guitar tone to a new level. It was transistor fuzz boxes that gave The Beatles, The Stones, Jimmi and countless rock legends their new sounds.

When Abbey Road (The Beatles album) was recorded, that was a new transisor consol, and many of the guitar sounds were created by overload the consol with DI'd guitars.

From that time on, a whole host of makers brought out transistor distortion boxes of all shapes, giving each generation of new rockers a new distortion sound.

Even IC based pedals, e.g. the Ibanez Tube Screamer, have been used to supply the basic overdrive sound of many iconic guitar legends.

Def Leppard used solidstate Rockman units.
Zappa and Joe Walsh and many others have used Pignose transistor amps.

Brian May used a solidstate homebrew amp made from a junked car radio on some classic Queen tracks.

Tubes are only one way of making mighty rock. Plenty of metallers prefer solid state all the way.

And as for transistors sending men to the moon, that was - depending on you point of view - extremely brave, or just a big hoax.

The Russians used tubes in their missiles and fighter planes for a very good reason: EMP (Electro Magnetic Pulse) can wipe out solid state circuits, tubes are far less vulnerable. If you wanted to engage in nuclear exchanges, you would be better off with tubes (or so I've read).

I would always debate with anyone who thought that tubes are they only way to get good guitar tone.

And digital may yet get there - you can make average guitar tones. I've never heard anything that made me excited with digital.

Craig's demo is not a bad sound, but if you compared it side by side with some Who or Stones there would be no contest.

There are really two parts to the problem: the basic distortion tone, and the issue of real speakers, air and mics. It's not really fair to confuse the two issues together.

[RockViolin]

I guess one does have to account for the peanut gallery.

Ok. I'm done.

Peanuts?

[franknputer]

It's not you - it's just that after 8 pages of this there's nothing coming to light beyond the fact that people use what they think does whatever job they need doing.

It's like arguing whether a screwdriver is better than a hammer for hanging stuff on the wall.

The big difference to me is whether you want your sound to be injected at the mixer or actually be part of the sound on stage. There's valid reasons for doing both, in different situations.

I used to use a J-Station to play with a choir that I was simultaneously mixing. It did a pretty good job, and I could switch between "appropriate" patches quickly. Of course, to play in time I had to listen to the choir on headphones, because if I listened to the PA & tried to play I would be way behind.

After awhile I started bringing an amp & leaving the booth to play with them - and that was a totally different experience. I had to take a different tack with some if the sounds, but it was fine - it was far better to be part of the group than be the Guitar Behind The Curtain.

I did use the J-Station onstage a few times too, but that required a decent monitor feed which was always something I had to worry about - and being on stage, I couldn't tweak anything from where I was...with an amp I just turn up until I'm comfortable & go.

Personally, I lean towards tubes myself. It's like Craig pointed out - there are an incredible amount of complex variables at play with a real amp. It's an organic beast - and as such, you have to feed it & stroke it & once in awhile it's gonna poop on the floor...

And some people would rather have a Tamagotchi.

[Lee Flier]

Originally posted by RockViolin ...but the reliability angle weighs heavy. Do transistors sound as vivacious as tubes? Not that I have found. Way, way out...but would you want to fly to the moon with tube gear? Transistors got us there. But before anyone climbs up mah grill on that...I know that was outside... but reliability and convenience of a diifferent sort, and size, and weight do begin to balance the scales.

Not to me they don't. I don't have a problem giving up some convenience considering what I perceive to be the difference in sound.

As for reliability... funny thing, I've never had one of my tube amps just crap out on me, even though most of them are 35-40 years old. I HAVE had digital processors crap out in one way or another, usually it's an LCD screen going poof, or an IC chip blows and that's all she wrote.

Its part of the armament for some people I think. Here is my big, beautiful, classic amp. Wow! Its like a classic car. And a little bean box or floor board just looks sad next to that. Sometimes the judgement starts there I think.

OK, so let me get this straight - I don't like modellers because:

- I don't know how to tweak them properly to get good sounds. I'm either too lazy or too deaf or too stupid to have figured out how to do this by now.

- I'm stuck in the past and unwilling to move into the 21st century, in spite of posting this from a state of the art computer with a broadband Internet connection and hey! I think cell phones and digital cameras and flatscreen TV's and spaceships on Mars are pretty neat-o too!

- I just love big tube amps because they're so cool looking and I'm unfairly casting aspersions on modellers because they aren't so cool looking.

Did I leave anything out?

It can't possibly be just because I love the sound of tube amps and they inspire me, and I don't much care for most of the sounds of modellers. Hey, as I've said all along, if YOU like 'em, use 'em. I've no argument with that, it just kills me when people have to try to find excuses for why somebody else subjectively likes or doesn't like something.