Agile not Mahogany?

[Jkater]

It is not a lie but "mahogany' is a term that can be applied to a number of species that differ quite a bit in their quality (and quantity). There is a kind of mahogany in Gabon that is only good enough to make plywood just to give you an idea. Yamaha would not lie either if they said Mahogany instead of Nato for their middle and lower end stuff but Yamaha being Yamaha, they don't need to trick people with funny terminilogy. When you read Mahagony on higher end guitars specs from them, you know it's the real deal (Honduras mahagony on SA2200, for example).

[ihavenofish]

http://www.projectyellow.ca/guitar_woods.pdf

 

heres a chart of the most common woods used in guitars, showing thier relations to other woods, and what groups/families they are actually in.

 

with one or 2 exceptions (like koa), the general name covers an entire family or genus with often hundreds of species. whats more tricky is that theres many names for the same tree.

 

in any case, "nato" is not a mahogany, nor is "meranti/luan" which is a relative of basswood. agathis is closer to pine than anything else used for guitars.

 

agiles arent nato, thats for certain. nato is a south american wood and extremely heavy. a les paul made of nato would be 6-8 lbs for the body alone! the grain pattern is also extremely coarse and hard. the wood used on agile LP's is soft and satiny.

 

in my (un)educated opinion, agile les pauls are made of either sipo or one of the dark red merantis. the first is actually a mahogany, the brother of sapelle. these are the only 2 woods that have a grain and colour thats somewhat consistent with what ive seen in my agiles - which tend to vary considerably, but are definitely the same wood. sipo is actually pretty close from the samples ive seen and may well be the correct answer.

http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/sipo.htm)

 

in any case, i wouldnt worry much about it, they look nice, play nice, and as much as it annoys many people, meranti is accepted in the lumber trade as mahogany so its not false advertising in that regard.

[Jkater]

nato is a south american wood and extremely heavy. a les paul made of nato would be 6-8 lbs for the body alone! the grain pattern is also extremely coarse and hard. the wood used on agile LP's is soft and satiny.

 

 

With all due respect...

 

Nato is from Asia (making it readily available for factories in that part of the world) and is used quite a bit for guitar necks but also sometimes for bodies and those are not super heavy.

 

I have read somewhere Nato being referred to as "Eastern (asian) mahogany" but it might have been a nickname referring to it having properties and apparence of mahogany. I do not dispute that Nato is no true mahogany so you are certainly right about that.

 

Here is the quote that I spoke of:

 

"Nato wood, also known as Eastern Mahogany, is a reliable, strong wood used on guitar necks. It is a value-priced wood used more in the lower cost instruments. However, Nato still embodies all of the properties of more commonly used.... and more expensive mahogany. Not a bad wood at all for most ukes.... except the finest ones."

[ihavenofish]

With all due respect... Nato is from Asia (making it readily available for factories in that part of the world) and is used quite a bit for guitar bodies and those are not super heavy. I have read somewhere Nato being referred to as "asian mahogany" but it might have been a nickname referring to it having properties and apparence of mahogany. I do not dispute that Nato is no true mahogany so you are certainly right about that.

http://www.windsorplywood.com/tropical_woods/mora.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mora_%28plant%29

it may have been transplanted in asia, but it is not native to there.

"Nato wood, also known as Eastern Mahogany, is a reliable, strong wood used on guitar necks. It is a value-priced wood used more in the lower cost instruments. However, Nato still embodies all of the properties of more commonly used.... and more expensive mahogany. Not a bad wood at all for most ukes.... except the finest ones."

im willing to bet they are either confusing nato with meranti, or just dont have a clue what they are talking about

[Jkater]

http://www.windsorplywood.com/tropical_woods/mora.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mora_%28plant%29 it may have been transplanted in asia, but it is not native to there. "Nato wood, also known as Eastern Mahogany, is a reliable, strong wood used on guitar necks. It is a value-priced wood used more in the lower cost instruments. However, Nato still embodies all of the properties of more commonly used.... and more expensive mahogany. Not a bad wood at all for most ukes.... except the finest ones." im willing to bet they are either confusing nato with meranti, or just dont have a clue what they are talking about

Thanks. I learned something today.

[ihavenofish]

Thanks. I learned something today.

me too. hehe. i like this subject, its kinda geeky and meaningless, but its fun.

ive seen people(luthiers no less) call nato reconstituded wood, or composite wood, or whatnot. likewise the people in this thread calling agathis phillipine mahogany, which is also not true. agathis is commonly called kauri, grown in australia and new zealand primarily, and one of the largest trees in the world, with trunk diametres of up to 45 feet. man, imagine how many guitars that would make!



(that tree in the picture is 45 feet accross.... thats bigger than my house!)

[BobbaFret]

That's a creepy looking tree:freak:

[ihavenofish]

That's a creepy looking tree:freak:

 

 

but does it have mojo?

 

its like 4000 years old or some such.

[ranalli]

Why do people get SO bent out of shape if a guitar isn't mahogany....it's almost as if everyone here is brainwashed into thinking that Mahogany is the only wood that has any tone.

 

 

Most people here wouldn't be able to tell the differences in tone anyway...

[BobbaFret]

but does it have mojo?

 

 

Not till it has strings!

[ihavenofish]

Not till it has strings!

 

 

would need pretty big string. like suspension bridge cables.

[BobbaFret]

Imagine what the tuners will look like:eek:

[GarysBlues]

Can't speak on Kurts Mahogany. But I could tell I have been VERY impressed with quality of ASH he's used on his electrics. Being his guitars are crafted right in Korea it would be most logical to believe his Ash is actually Sen?

I spoke to him about this and he stated it was Northern Ash? Well I have owned a Fender Lite Ash Telecaster also. That "IS" made out of Sen and is also from Korea. Though both woods have very similiar Tonal qualities. The real differenmce is in theri appearence. Here have a look at the two.



Thats the FENDER Lite ASH.

Here's the AGILE ASH.



Lets look at the front?

Fender



AGILE




Tell ya, I can'y say a bad word about the quality of Woods used by Agile. I have been very happy with mine and prefer in this case Agiles Telel much more than Fender's similiar offering.

[ihavenofish]

Can't speak on Kurts Mahogany. But I could tell I have been VERY impressed with quality of ASH he's used on his electrics. Being his guitars are crafted right in Korea it would be most logical to believe his Ash is actually Sen? I spoke to him about this and he stated it was Northern Ash? Well I have owned a Fender Lite Ash Telecaster also. That "IS" made out of Sen and is also from Korea. Though both woods have very similiar Tonal qualities. The real differenmce is in theri appearence. Here have a look at the two. Thats the FENDER Lite ASH. Here's the AGILE ASH.

the ash used in agiles seem to be north american (swamp or northern) which has a distinct look. the SX guitars are definitely another variety of ash - of which there are hundreds all around the world.

there was an ash agile LP on ebay recently that had a one piece back and 2 piece cap. it looked awesome. in comparison, the gibson swamp ash studio has a 4 piece back, and doesnt look as nice. that agile aparently retailed for $200... which is nuts

[TaZMaNiO]

Why do people get SO bent out of shape if a guitar isn't mahogany....it's almost as if everyone here is brainwashed into thinking that Mahogany is the only wood that has any tone.

 

Well, if I bought a guitar represented as "mahogany" and it was actually made from some bush that grows in Asia I'd be pretty pissed, but hey that's just me

 

Most people here wouldn't be able to tell the differences in tone anyway...

 

Perhaps that is true, but I can tell you that 99% of the Korean/Chinese el-cheapo axes I pick-up made from "mahogany" I can IMMEDIATELY tell with my eyes closed they're not even close to having "THAT" tone.

 

Most sound more similar to Maple/Alder construction than traditional mahogany/mahogany tone...

 

[TaZMaNiO]

Another happy Agile playa? :freak:



:lol:

[ihavenofish]

Perhaps that is true, but I can tell you that 99% of the Korean/Chinese el-cheapo axes I pick-up made from "mahogany" I can IMMEDIATELY tell with my eyes closed they're not even close to having "THAT" tone. Most sound more similar to Maple/Alder construction than traditional mahogany/mahogany tone...

so, what is "that" tone? whats maple/alder sound like? thats mahogany/mahogany sound like?

its kinda funny, cause im sure youll spout off a long list of attributes, and then ill have to turn around and tell you that a good portion (probably more than half) of these "mahogany" chinese guitars are actually made of.. guess what, african mahogany! and those american guitars? yup, african mahogany except for a select few.

im not defending the practice of labelling woods something they are not, or throwing blanket terms over 1000 different trees, but in the case of the mahoganies (honduran, cuban, african, sipo, sapele, cedrela) and their extended family (meranti) the chances of even the most seasoned ear picking one from the next just by sound is roughly 0.

alder from mahogany, or basswood from swamp ash... maybe the odd person could pick that out with better than 50% accuracy on sound alone.

when it comes to appearance, weight, hardness, its slightly easier to tell them apart, but even then, to the average person, they all look the same since theres alot of overlap.

[twisty571]

Companies are not going to waste their money importing something like African Mahogany for a low end guitar. They use local wood and or something closer. For example Agathis wood from the Philippines....which is also known as Philippine mahogany.

 

 

Actually Hagstrom does import African mahogany for their guitars unless they fibbed in there Video. Now as to how good it is:idk: but I like mine:p

[YOUTUBE]vDaTm2MCFHc[/YOUTUBE]

[YOUTUBE]2QgdZPzZrlA[/YOUTUBE]

[guitarcapo]

People equate $ with tone and it just follows that more expensive rarer woods have to have superior tonal properties....Sort of flawed logic because wood prices have nothing to do with tone...more to do with the environment, international trade etc. I always said that if maple was and extremely rare tree people would respect it as a tonewood more.

[ihavenofish]

Actually Hagstrom does import African mahogany for their guitars unless they fibbed in there Video. Now as to how good it is:idk: but I like mine:p

he also mentioned sri lanka, which harvests promarily big leaf mahaogany... the same species as honduran mahogany... just not from honduras.

the horror! a cheap guitar using honduran mahogany!

[twisty571]

he also mentioned sri lanka, which harvests promarily big leaf mahaogany... the same species as honduran mahogany... just not from honduras. the horror! a cheap guitar using honduran mahogany!

So am I reading the wikipedia link right the African and Honduran mahogany are the best 2? I'm not to edumacated in all the guitar woods except I wanted a mahogany guitar so I got 1?

[Burningleaves]

 

 

 

 

That's great...but it doesn't prove anything in regards to the other companies.

[ihavenofish]

So am I reading the wikipedia link right the African and Honduran mahogany are the best 2? I'm not to edumacated in all the guitar woods except I wanted a mahogany guitar so I got 1?

 

 

the swietenia genus is the original group of 3 trees called mahogany. honduran is a name applied to 2 of those trees, the other is cuban. in modern times, only one is available commercially, and goes by "genuine", "honduras", "big leaf", and a few other names. it is native to south america, but has been transplanted to places like sri lanka and the philipines where it grows both wild and on plantations.

 

all the swietenia woods are basically identical down to the molecular level, with no reliable means to differentiate just by looking at them.

 

the properties that has made them so desirable are mechanical. they are strong, (relatively)hard, show little to no warping from green to dry. they resist decay, insects, and have a very pretty lustre and grain patterns that stain and finish uniformly. they also carve easy with minimal tearout and fuzz. basically they are a woodworkers wet dream.

 

it was also abundant and cheap up until the later part of the 20th century.

 

the genus khaya (african mahogany) is a close relative of swietenia in the expanded "mahogany family", and 2 of the 7 species make ideal substitutes. khaya is more coarse, denser, and slightly harder than swietenia. its also more prone to tear out and blotching when stained. for this reason, swietenia is still prefered when available in situations wher those properties matter.

 

sapele is also from africa and similar to khaya, but harder and heavier, and generally stands on its own as an exotic. most builders wouldnt try to hide that a guitar is sapele as its considered a plus.

 

sipo or "utile" is the brother of sapele, and is somewhere between khaya and sapele in properties. it tends to be alot more bland than sapele and can have a very dark red heartwood. im 70% sure my agile i posted is sipo looking at more and more samples.

 

spanish cedar is another common south american mahogany, which like sapele is usually given its own category for trade, mostly because it smells like cedar. it has very similar properties and look to swietenia, but its more challenging to work because it fuzzes and tears. spanish cedar is also cites listed, which means it will likely be unavailable soon. gibson has used this wood for both necks and bodies on the melody maker (currently neck).

 

indian red cedar, or toon, is the last wood in the mahogany family commonly used in guitars. i dont know much about it, and it doesnt seem to really look like its cousins. its used in a number of new squier guitars, so it cant be very expensive. it is often called chinese mahogany and philippine mahogany, which can be confusing because that term is applied to meranti as well, not to mention the swietenia macrophylla grown in the philippines.

 

 

basically, "better" depends on what exactly you are doing. for furniture, swietenia has many benifits over its cousins. for guitars, its not as meaningful. swietenia might be more stable for neck than the others, but for a body, i dont think it matters structurally. with properly set up tools all of these woods can be carved easily, and conditioners and fillers make finishing uneventful.

[Ratae Corieltauvorum]

http://www.windsorplywood.com/tropical_woods/mora.html http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mora_%28plant%29 it may have been transplanted in asia, but it is not native to there. "Nato wood, also known as Eastern Mahogany, is a reliable, strong wood used on guitar necks. It is a value-priced wood used more in the lower cost instruments. However, Nato still embodies all of the properties of more commonly used.... and more expensive mahogany. Not a bad wood at all for most ukes.... except the finest ones." im willing to bet they are either confusing nato with meranti, or just dont have a clue what they are talking about

You're right in one respect, but not fastidious enough to be absolutely right, as the "nato" used in the Far east/SE Asia is not Mora, but Payena spp.

YOu were almost there with the plywood site:thu:

The economics of importing wood from S. America to make cheap guitars in Asia makes no sense

http://www.windsorplywood.com/tropical_woods/nyatoh.html

[ihavenofish]

You're right in one respect, but not fastidious enough to be absolutely right, as the "nato" used in the Far east/SE Asia is not Mora, but Payena spp. YOu were almost there with the plywood site:thu: The economics of importing wood from S. America to make cheap guitars in Asia makes no sense http://www.windsorplywood.com/tropical_woods/nyatoh.html

 

 

..... i see.

 

that makes some sense, more in line with mahogany properties.

 

when i look under google images i get porn..... hmmm.

haha.

 

 

http://www.hobbithouseinc.com/personal/woodpics/nyatoh.htm

 

doesnt seem to resemble my agiles. hmmm. im still leaning to sipo i think, with an outside chance of meranti.