I'm tired of hearing Guitar Hero compared to playing an instrument

[Lee Flier]

Chip,

 

I totally understand what you're saying, but the thing is: there is only a tiny percentage of kids who are ever going to pick up an instrument and seriously pursue it. And really that's OK - there are too many guitar players these days anyway.

 

But seriously, sure there are kids who might pick up Guitar Hero and think they're really playing guitar, but how many of those kids would have ever picked up the instrument seriously anyway? If it had been World of Warcraft that was keeping them from seriously pursuing guitar, or any other form of entertainment, you wouldn't think anything of it. And no doubt there are kids who play WoW and pretend that translates into some interest in the military or running obstacle courses or arcane weapons, and casually call some "experts" about it... and once they find out that serious skills are involved that require hours of their time and dedication, and that their WoW skills don't mean crap in the real world... well they just never pursue it. And never would have whether they'd ever played WoW or not.

 

That's just how kids (and even adults) are about the various things that pique their interest - one or two things hopefully take hold and become real passions and pursuits, most don't. I think that what you're seeing as a teacher is more kids' initial curiosity piqued by guitar specifically, because of Guitar Hero. But they are no more serious about it than they were last week about wanting to become an arachnologist after they saw Spider-man (and I use this example because I did, in fact, decide when I was 5 years old that I wanted to study arachnology because Spider-man was my favorite TV show. And I even called up some real scientists... I hope they didn't think the younger generation was ruined because real science had been supplanted by TV shows, or that the TV show had killed my ability to be serious about real science. It didn't - I love science and have always studied it casually, but I know for a fact that I would never have become an actual scientist).

 

In other words... nothing is going to stop a kid who really wants to play guitar from playing guitar, and those who really don't have an interest in it... well yeah, it's kind of annoying to those who've seriously pursued it that a kid can pretend to have real skills when he doesn't, but who really cares? There are lots of games that are that way and always have been, that allow kids to "be" things they aren't and would never translate to the real world. If a kid can't figure out eventually that it doesn't translate, they never would've been capable of becoming serious anyway, and that's just as well.

 

I do agree with you that in general, people's attention spans have gotten shorter and real skills (not just guitar playing) have become devalued by many. And this frustrates me to no end on many fronts. But on the other hand it seems like the kids who DO seriously pursue music now, many of them are just awesome. And my band is seeing a lot of teenagers who genuinely do appreciate good live music and musicians who can really play. So... who knows. I wouldn't consider it much more than an annoyance to people of your profession, at this point.

[Ani]

...And there was also a real keyboard within the same instrument, so if someone actually did want to go beyond one-finger orchestration, the keys and sounds were right in front of them to do so. Guitar Hero has very little if anything that would translate to real guitar.

On some of the early models of electronic keyboards that saturated the markets, they made itsy-bitsy-teensy-weensy keyboards that were supposed to be "compact and portable" but the actual key sizes were too small for most adult pianists to feel physically comfortable with. Rather than relaxing your hand and reaching the standard width to play something as simple as a Major triad; you had to hook your hand into a claw shape to "fit" the size of the keyboard without over reaching and hitting the wrong key or doubling up on two keys accidentally. God forbid you wanted to play any 6th, 7th, 9th, or 11th chords.... attempting to do something like that would have been a physical nightmare and next to impossible to achieve.

As with guitar, a pianist learns finger position and does not look at their hands while playing. With the 1/2" keys on the mini boards; you were FORCED to look at your hands to make sure you readjusted your hands to accommodate the size of the keys..... On some of the keyboards, you actually had to turn your hand slightly to the side so that your fingertips would not hit extra keys; it wasn't a matter of just switching out of auto play and into the real deal. Playing fluently was not probable and the little "jukeboxes" were basically good for just that.... finding someone that wanted to ACT like they were playing music who would push the single control buttons (not the actual keys) to turn on the preset rhythms or whole songs on and then go through the motions. There were tons and tons of the little pieces of scrap plastic manufactured before anything really became standardized in the design of musical keyboards; Yamaha was really bad about manufacturing a variety of sizes early on.... They had good tone, but many of their consumer grade keyboards probably ended up in the scrap pile before it was all said and done. They finally learned that they needed to keep the key width a standard size for the most part.

The concept of synthesized music became the norm after mock pianos carved their nitch in society as an acceptable "instrument" and other manufacturers began making synthesizer modules that would fit into a gear rack without even having to physically play any instrument... then came the digital audio hardware and the software... and all that continues to follow. Drum machines, digital guitars, breath controllers that try to mimic the wind instruments....

ANYWAY... I understand that Guitar Hero is nothing like playing a real guitar, but then again, I lived through the evolution of the electronic keyboard through it's stablizing years. During the beginning, unless you were willing to pay out more than a grand or two or three to buy a professional grade electric piano or a high end digital synthesizer when minimum wage was well below $5.00 an hour; you were not going to get ANYTHING that even came close to giving you a feel for the real deal.

What would this new generation do in the event of a world wide blackout??? I mean, they are allowed to use CALCULATORS in class to do their math assignments in many instances.

[Synonym Music]

What would this new generation do in the event of a world wide blackout??? I mean, they are allowed to use CALCULATERS in class to do their math assignments in many instances.

Would you prefer eight hour classes instead?

[UstadKhanAli]

The entire new generation is going to hell in a handbasket.

 

All of them are spoiled, coddled kids who don't know any better.

 

This entire new generation thinks that they are playing a musical instrument when they are playing Guitar Hero.

 

This entire new generation doesn't appreciate hard work and dedication.

 

This new generation is stupid and lazy.

 

....and...harrrumph, pulls up suspenders

[Synonym Music]

This thread is officially Obviously there's no generation which is oblivious to the architecture of music.... YET!

[chipmcdonald]

My son played tuba in concert and symphonic band (snip) I'm glad that he is finally picking up a REAL (the Fender) guitar and actually playing around with it some.

 

 

1+1=2

 

 

GH does work on the dexterity and sight to hand coordination;

 

 

But not specific to playing guitar. You could say that about playing any video game.

 

 

He has to know the color of buttons that coordinate with the buttons on the guitar or there are strike points that lead to song failure and the booing of the crowd.

 

 

"Ok"

 

 

If he gets out of synch with the rhythm of the song;

 

 

The synch is so loose being "in synch" doesn't mean a lot...

 

 

If someone played every single chord correctly, but they were all over the place in synchronizing the beat with the rest of the band; they are no more musically talented than a Guitar Hero playing on a gaming system.

 

 

Except they're having to actually play chords and not press a button...

 

 

I can remember a band that I worked with years ago that had a lead guitarist that would go off into his own little world once his blotter kicked in.... it was impossible to get beyond rehearsals and even think about calling the group a band. I moved on....

 

 

"ok"

[chipmcdonald]

I wouldn't rely on a game to tell me right from wrong. That's the sort of ignorance I'm talking about.

*You* wouldn't. That doesn't mean everybody. "Ignorance" is relative; to a 10 year old, not knowing the process of "learning an instrument" I wouldn't call "ignorance". Deciding that "playing an instrument" is what Guitar Hero is, after the hype, I also wouldn't call "ignorance" necessarily, either.

An entire generation?

.. will have grown up playing Guitar Hero. For the most part, based on my first hand experience, they'll consider it "something like playing a real instrument". I find that detrimental.

Do you teach guitar? How much first hand experience do you have talking to strangers about how they perceive Guitar Hero?

Pure nonsense.

Everyone is entitled these days.

ou're entitled to your opinion about how potential students may perceive the importance of GH as compared to actual playing, but you haven't come close to hearing anything near to what an entire generation thinks on the subject.

[chipmcdonald]

II've heard it done. Pretty old school, actually.

We both know playing melody with awareness of harmony is NOT what the majority of the people who are DJ's are doing.

Isn't playing a piano organizing an available set of sounds by physical means? You are seriously reaching.

No, you are seriously reaching if you're reducing playing a keyboard to just "organizing sounds". That kind of reductionist thinking is the point.

For example, this conversation would have been considered outright insanity 30 years ago. No longer the case.

I can organize a set of sounds, have it come out sounding like music, but it isn't music? Ok.

We've entered the Wonderful Syntactical Logic Aspect of our discussion:

I am not debating whether "music" can be created from manipulating a turntable - or any device. I am debating the validity of someone doing the manipulating describing themselves as a "musician", when there is little to no awareness of the rules of music. There's a difference (or there used to be..).

Someone can pick up a guitar that knows nothing about music theory and plunk out something that sounds like "music". How, by your definition, should that person not also be referred to as a "musician"?

I. But the guy with two turntables is playing something.

Ok, I concede, I'm tired.

And to imply that he could organize sounds in a musical manner by playing something, but not be a musician is quite a stretch.

"Anyone who can organize sound into music is a "musician"". Ok.

Any bias at all? What makes you so sure that Joe turntablist doesn't have the same level of musical knowledge that you do?

That's not what we are discussing. This has become a tenuously stretched point...

Those guys love music.

That's not a defining factor of being a "musician", though.

That's why they do what they do. And they try to be creative and break new ground,

.... Therefore, we shouldn't possibly offend them by NOT refering to them as "musicians". Right?

Sort of like, nurses want to try to help people get better and can use a stethoscope and administer injections, so they're really "doctors"...

just as guitar players should. And considering these guys have contributed to a quite large body of what would be called music, I would say your definition is outdated.

I'm Oldskool. Sorry.

You can debate all you want, but the debate was over quite some time ago.

I'm just not cutting edge... sigh.

I just try to adapt and change and make the best of what the current manifestations have to offer, lest I be a relic.

Turntable scratching as a sound is pretty relic-like at this point, IMO, but I'm not concerned with chasing a perceived trend. In the 21st century there *is no trend*.

I should call you a liberal or something. What's funny is you lost lessons for being a supposed "liberal". And here we see you demonstrating some seriously conservative viewpoints regarding what is a musician/music. _~

"Conservative" and "liberal" are catch phrases that have been invented and mutated for political reasons, outside of mainstream politics they have no bearing on reality.

[chipmcdonald]

there is only a tiny percentage of kids who are ever going to pick up an instrument and seriously pursue it.

 

 

Right, that's my point. Guitar Hero is getting to them before they have the chance to get to that stage.

 

 

but how many of those kids would have ever picked up the instrument seriously anyway?

 

 

I dunno, a lot? There's a lot of kids playing Guitar Hero, and it's a whole lot more accessible than a real guitar at this point. That's saying that if a kid picks up Guitar Hero, he wouldn't have seriously pursued guitar, otherwise?

 

 

If it had been World of Warcraft that was keeping them from seriously pursuing guitar,

 

 

Ah, but see, WoW doesn't have the aspect of confusing a kid into thinking "I'm playing an instrument/this is what playing an instrument is all about". The kid into WoW that picks up a friend's guitar on a lark, doesn't have pre-conceived and warped ideas about it that run counter to playing it.

 

 

I think that what you're seeing as a teacher is more kids' initial curiosity piqued by guitar specifically, because of Guitar Hero. But they are no more serious about it than they were last week about wanting to become an arachnologist after they saw Spider-man

 

 

That's presuming that any kid that gets sucked into Guitar Hero would otherwise not have decided to play guitar otherwise, and if they do that they're not affected by the experience.

 

Part of the problem is that you're right: they *are* no more serious about it. It's just a game. A lot get bored with it, it's shallow. ... but what if they'd tried their friend's real guitar instead?. It's not going to happen now: it's "too hard"; "it's not like Guitar Hero"; "it takes too long", "it doesn't sound good".

 

 

 

(and I use this example because I did, in fact, decide when I was 5 years old that I wanted to study arachnology because Spider-man was my favorite TV show. And I even called up some real scientists...

 

 

 

Answer this: what has more real mystery to it, real guitar playing or Guitar Hero?

 

When you first started playing guitar, and everything was still wonderfully mysterious and unknown in music - how deep was that well? Hopefully you're not at the bottom of it; Guitar Hero plays on how enthralling that mystery is, uses it up and tells the player "there - you've seen it! Wasn't that fun?". It stops.

 

For the potential budding real guitar hero, that initial mystery that has served the rock music world so well, is used as a sign to pull someone into Guitar Hero. it is selling the mystery of playing a rock and roll instrument that has made it popular. The illusion Guitar Hero is giving people, in a warped way uses that up. People get the visceral thrill of "playing guitar", and it's fun; then, when they find out in order to get that thrill on a REAL guitar, it's (to them) effectively impossible.

 

That's not good, IMO, sorry.

 

 

In other words... nothing is going to stop a kid who really wants to play guitar from playing guitar,

 

 

I agree.

 

 

and those who really don't have an interest in it... well yeah, it's kind of annoying to those who've seriously pursued it that a kid can pretend to have real skills when he doesn't, but who really cares?

 

 

Because it's not just kids that are starting to think that. And the kids that think that now aren't always going to be kids.

 

 

world. If a kid can't figure out eventually that it doesn't translate, they never would've been capable of becoming serious anyway,

 

 

You're presuming a kid will be self-motivated enough to find out - and that's part of the problem, the nature of the game and it's hype takes some of the mystery away, which in turn takes the drive away. They're not going to get to that point.

 

Bike sales are down. There are kids today that have never learned to ride a bike, and probably won't. They just play video games. Period. A friend bought his 10 year old a bike a few years ago - and the kid wouldn't even try it. No interest in it. It was easier to play video games; that there were rewards to riding a bike he couldn't imagine didn't matter, because his sense of mystery was controlled by video games.

 

My point being, is he better or worse off? Forget Guitar Hero: is the kid better off for not bothering to learn how to ride a bike? Maybe not: he's learning "skills", he's learning to think, he's maybe developing an interesting in programming - who knows?

 

BUT, he's not going to get on that bike. I say riding a bike can be a more rewarding experience, but that's never going to happen. The same things can be said, "a kid that wants to ride a bike will find a way". But that's not the point; the video game has used up that motivational desire.

 

 

other hand it seems like the kids who DO seriously pursue music now, many of them are just awesome.

 

 

I'm predicting we're going to see that change drastically in a few years. We're going to see starter guitar sales plummet, and over the long haul a reduction in interest overall with playing an instrument.

 

 

And my band is seeing a lot of teenagers who genuinely do appreciate good live music and musicians who can really play.

 

 

They're pre-Guitar Hero. Just wait, give it about 5 years. People would have said the same thing 20 years ago about karaoke one day taking gigs away, "oh, THAT will never happen". And now people think being a "singer" doesn't mean Mick Jagger, Freddy Mercury or Jeff Buckley, it means singing pre-fab songs on a game show.

 

Just wait....

[chipmcdonald]

This new generation is stupid and lazy. ....and...harrrumph, pulls up suspenders

 

 

That's a tired analogy.

[chipmcdonald]

What's most disturbing is that I appear to be alone. When I *know* there are people reading this who concur with what I'm saying, but it's too politically incorrect to go against the grain an dare imply someone that just bought a Technics Sl from Guitar Center isn't a musician, or that people running around calling themselves "guitar players" maybe shouldn't be, and that it's a negative thing.

It's not lost on me that, being a guitar teacher, it appears to be more pervasive to my perspective. I'm probably way off base, no worries! Everything is fine, no harm done in what the populace thinks about musicians and being a musician. So I should just not say anything....

Cheers

[RockViolin]

What's most disturbing is that I appear to be alone. When I *know* there are people reading this who concur with what I'm saying, Cheers

 

 

I don't expect to *make* your day, but I'm widja man. GH is to guitarplaying what the board game "Operation" is to being a surgeon. My stepson, who has had some violin lessons from me, (but didn't stick with it)and has always seemed to have lots of respect for what it takes to do what I do, stopped by and with excitement proclaimed he's been playing GH, and that I really ought to check it out. OK, except for the look on his face... like it was really a musical skill and he was now a musician. I don't think I've ever looked at him the way I looked at him then.

If possible though, I think that anyone that thinks they have a head start on playing guitar because they play GH needs a short, loud, incendiary, in their face demonstration of why they don't. Same for thinking they're a kickboxer because they play the game.

[Lee Flier]

Right, that's my point. Guitar Hero is getting to them before they have the chance to get to that stage.

Yeah, I understand your point, and I agree with it to a point but... you're also assuming that if they hadn't played Guitar Hero they'd have gotten to that stage. That's what I'm not so sure about.

How many students do you get who just never practice or give up after a short time anyway? A pretty high percentage I'd think. And I'd be surprised if that hadn't always been the case.

There's a lot of kids playing Guitar Hero, and it's a whole lot more accessible than a real guitar at this point. That's saying that if a kid picks up Guitar Hero, he wouldn't have seriously pursued guitar, otherwise?

No it's not saying that at all. What I'm saying is that I don't know that there's as much of a correlation in either direction as you seem to think there is. Some kids will play GH and end up pursuing guitar, and some kids who've never played it will pursue guitar... and the majority never will whether they've ever played GH or not.

Ah, but see, WoW doesn't have the aspect of confusing a kid into thinking "I'm playing an instrument/this is what playing an instrument is all about". The kid into WoW that picks up a friend's guitar on a lark, doesn't have pre-conceived and warped ideas about it that run counter to playing it.

Yeah I do understand that point, and there will probably be some individual kids who will be affected negatively (if "positively" means they end up playing a real guitar), but... how to explain this... I don't think GH would succeed at supplanting a kid's desire to play the guitar if the kid has serious aptitude in the first place. You're saying he wouldn't have the chance to find out whether he had serious aptitude... I don't really agree. If anything, real guitars are everywhere. Beginner guitars are ubiquitous, you can buy them at Target and Wal-Mart and they actually play better and are cheaper than when I started. And it's way easier to learn, so far as the information that's out there. You can get online and find tab, there are a zillion guitar mags with all your heroes giving their "secrets" and this stuff was hard to come by when I was learning.

Part of the problem is that you're right: they *are* no more serious about it. It's just a game. A lot get bored with it, it's shallow. ... but what if they'd tried their friend's real guitar instead? . It's not going to happen now: it's "too hard"; "it's not like Guitar Hero"; "it takes too long", "it doesn't sound good".

But that's the thing - I think that if they'd picked up their friend's real guitar they'd have that attitude anyway. I guess because I've seen people do that so often way before Guitar Hero. You could pick any one pursuit and most people are just not going to have the werewithal to study it seriously. But they might have an infatuation with it based on the visceral rush they get from seeing somebody do it in a movie, or pseudo-doing it themselves in a video game. And that's what they're really after. When they find out they can't get that without years of study and hard work they often lose interest, or settle for the pseudo-experience. I don't think this is a new "problem," is what I'm saying.

When you first started playing guitar, and everything was still wonderfully mysterious and unknown in music - how deep was that well? Hopefully you're not at the bottom of it; Guitar Hero plays on how enthralling that mystery is, uses it up and tells the player "there - you've seen it! Wasn't that fun?". It stops.

Heh... I dunno, like I said, I've been starting to get that feeling lately about REAL GUITARS. It seems like everybody plays guitar lately and everybody is selling some sort of pre-packaged mystery, whether it's modelling amps or tab books or the latest pedal that "makes you sound just like Hendrix" or whatever. I haven't felt for years like there's anything to really "figure out" about guitar anymore. I don't mean for me personally, I mean for somebody starting out. It's all safe lanes now, it's been codified. I guess Guitar Hero to me is just the latest manifestation of that.

So maybe I feel like it'd be better if fewer people played guitar, I dunno. I don't mean fewer people than we've ever had, I just mean not so many as there've been in the last 10 years, ever since anybody with a distortion pedal who learns how to drop a D string thinks they can play guitar. I don't see that as a whole lot different than Guitar Hero. But thankfully I AM seeing more kids who are starting to understand the difference.

For the potential budding real guitar hero, that initial mystery that has served the rock music world so well, is used as a sign to pull someone into Guitar Hero. it is selling the mystery of playing a rock and roll instrument that has made it popular . The illusion Guitar Hero is giving people, in a warped way uses that up. People get the visceral thrill of "playing guitar", and it's fun; then, when they find out in order to get that thrill on a REAL guitar, it's (to them) effectively impossible .

OK, but you still haven't convinced me that this is any different from a kid who grows up watching spy movies/TV shows and playing spy video games. They get the "visceral thrill" of being a spy or a detective and hunting bad guys. The TV producer or game developer is "selling the mystery" of detective work and allowing someone to experience the "fun part" of it without putting in any of the hard work or including the dull parts.

Now most people are never going to take the pursuit of detective work any farther than that. It's just a passing interest for them and a cheap thrill. Then there are some who will actually have a go at looking into what it would take to become a real detective. Out of that bunch, again, the majority are going to give up when they find out how much work it requires and how dull the work really often is. "It's not as cool as in the movies and video games." Well - NOTHING is, not playing guitar or being a touring musician or pretty much anything once you seriously get into it. A lot of the "glamor" goes away and that's the point at which most people give up.

I've ALWAYS noticed this, about everything, and the main concern that I've had about modern society's effect on kids' ability to become accomplished is that things move faster and faster and kids' attention spans get shorter. Many have less and less ability to stay focused on any one thing. Again that's a general thing and I don't see GH as being particular more or less offensive in that department, other than it's especially annoying to us personally because we're guitar players and you're a teacher.

You're presuming a kid will be self-motivated enough to find out - and that's part of the problem, the nature of the game and it's hype takes some of the mystery away, which in turn takes the drive away. They're not going to get to that point.

Bike sales are down. There are kids today that have never learned to ride a bike, and probably won't. They just play video games. Period.

Yeah, and that really sucks... but again, I'd say that's part of a general problem that video games are supplanting real experiences. The reason the kid isn't learning to ride a bike isn't because he's playing a video game that has the look and feel of a bike, and that's supplanting learning the skill of riding a bike. It's because video games in general have supplanted his general desire for lots of other real world experiences.

So again, I'm not sure where Guitar Hero, specifically, takes that to another level. It's just another video game that some kids will use to supplant real playing, or bike riding for that matter, and others won't. If parents aren't curbing their kids' video game time and spending time with them doing "real stuff," instilling a sense of magic about that in them (and I agree that they aren't in a lot of cases), then that's the problem.

They're pre-Guitar Hero. Just wait, give it about 5 years. People would have said the same thing 20 years ago about karaoke one day taking gigs away, "oh, THAT will never happen". And now people think being a "singer" doesn't mean Mick Jagger, Freddy Mercury or Jeff Buckley, it means singing pre-fab songs on a game show.

Well first of all, I'm not saying it will never happen. I'm just saying that if and when it does, I don't think Guitar Hero is going to be specifically responsible.

Second, I do continue to see plenty of kids who know the difference, even if they do play video games or do karaoke. I think this problem is probably worse in your area than it is here.

In the 80's when drum machines and sequencers became ubiquitous, people (including me) worried that no one would want to become a real drummer or keyboard player anymore, and that these things would supplant real instruments. They haven't; the two have co-existed alongside each other. That's not to say that a lot of individuals don't cop out and take the easy route; they'll work up a demo in their living room and then call it "good enough" for release because it's easier than hiring a real drummer and recording the tracks and getting them to sound good. And I'm the first to say that sucks - but on the other hand there are still a lot of kids becoming drummers too, even though they've had the ability to slice-n-dice drums for a number of years now and get the "look and feel" of drums without the work. And there are a lot of budding engineers who still believe the Holy Grail of audio is still getting a great drum sound so... who knows. I'm inclined to feel at this point that you can't generalize too much about these things.

[Lee Flier]

What's most disturbing is that I appear to be alone. When I *know* there are people reading this who concur with what I'm saying, but it's too politically incorrect to go against the grain an dare imply someone that just bought a Technics Sl from Guitar Center isn't a musician, or that people running around calling themselves "guitar players" maybe shouldn't be , and that it's a negative thing.

No argument from me that the term "musician" or "guitar player" is thrown around too loosely. My argument is that I don't think Guitar Hero is or will be specifically responsible for that. I also think (like I said in my last post) that there is plenty of paint-by-numbers and easy copouts now in playing real guitar; there are a lot of people who pick up an actual instrument and call themselves guitar players when they probably shouldn't. But what can be done about that, other than trying to set an example? It's not like I'm gonna ever argue that you should have to have a music degree or some specific amount of knowledge of theory or some kind of license to be able to call yourself a musician.

[dahkter]

I am debating the validity of someone doing the manipulating describing themselves as a "musician", when there is little to no awareness of the rules of music.

Do you think Robert Johnson was aware of the "rules" of music?

An example, in action, yours truly. You can't fast forward through the song, but here you go:

- click on myspace link below (www.myspace.com/dahkter)
- click on the song "doc night sax freestyle"
- listen from 2:41 to 3:01 (and no, you can't fast forward on myspace, so you may want to go grab a drink out of the fridge at this point)
- that is an example of a turntable being used as a musical instrument.

Here's how it was done:
- I have the sound of a one note test tone on a record.
- my turntable has a pitch control slider which can make the record play slower and faster (exactly like a pitch wheel on a synth).
- I let the tone play, and then as it is playing, I move the pitch control slider up and down to hit different notes. I could play this through a guitar tuner and see that I am playing different notes on the scale.
- I am also rubbing the beginning of the sound back and forth prior to triggering the sound, this is creating a high pitched sound which is approx 3-4 octaves higher than the actual sound.
- I am also moving the crossfader back and forth to turn the sound off and on, to give an arpeggio type effect.

Is the turntable an instrument per se? Nope. It's a device used to play records. Just like a washboard is a device used to wash your clothes.

Can it be used as an instrument? Yes indeed.

Is a person who plays a turntable a musician? If you are actually playing it in a musical way, with some degree of skill, then yes.

[Ani]

What's most disturbing is that I appear to be alone. When I *know* there are people reading this who concur with what I'm saying, but it's too politically incorrect to go against the grain an dare imply someone that just bought a Technics Sl from Guitar Center isn't a musician, or that people running around calling themselves "guitar players" maybe shouldn't be, and that it's a negative thing.

Depends on what you are saying you are alone at... There is no electronic device whatsoever that will ever be able to give a musician the same satisfaction that an acoustical instrument can. Not piano, not guitar (even if it's a game), not violin, drum kits, breath controlled sax.... NADA; there will ALWAYS be students that will seek the education in becoming a classically trained instrumentalist!!!! Those that have an "ear" for music will be able to tell the difference between an electronic device and a real instrument. There will always be those that will not be willing to SETTLE for less than the best.

The tones of an acoustical instrument are just RICHER and more WHOLESOME in every way. They are not dense sounding tones that are generated from a box that remain level and lifeless from note to note. You can shape each note played individually on "real" instruments with the application of skill and technique. I've yet to find any electronic device capable of delivering the same emotion that I'm capable of capturing with a "harp stringed" piano.

OT - When I was a kid I used to seek permission to go into the chapel after church and play the Steinway grand they had in the auditorium. I would play while my parents socialized with other patrons of the church and I was never ready to leave when it was time to go. When my mom took me to my first piano lesson with the pastor's wife; the pastor's wife asked me to play what she played.... I watched her fingers while sitting beside her and played exactly what I heard. She said, "PERFECT" and then complimented me for playing what she had played note for note; she had played 2 and 3 fingered chords and the melody line of "The Old Rugged Cross". I was excited that I had not messed up and thought that it would be great to get to learn to play on the church piano. When the pastor's wife stood up and told my mother that she refused to teach me; I was crushed.

My mom insisted on knowing why and the pastor's wife told my mom that God had provided me with the gift of natural talent and that she would not take that away from me. She followed by saying that she had played by ear as a child and her instructor smacked her knuckles with a ruler every time she yielded from playing strictly by sight reading. She said that in going through that; she had been stripped of natural talent and conditioned to play only by the book. Needless to say, my mother refused to seek lessons for me thereafter.

After reaching adulthood, and getting out on my own, I signed up to take Classical Piano in a college course. The classroom was full of "ELECTRIC" pianos... After many years of playing by ear on nothing less than a full sized grand piano or an upright grand; being reduced to the sound quality of an electric piano at the college really took the wind out of wanting to take more music classes at that college. I guess it was a lot easier to have a classroom full of 20 or so 2' x 5' electric pianos than it was to have 1 grand piano to share among 20 students. I took a Music Theory course at UMKC and then sought private instruction from a music teacher that had graduated from the Conservatory of UMKC that provided piano lessons on a grand.

[MrKnobs]

This debate reminds me of what a very successful artist manager once asked Julie, my musical partner. She said:

 

"Julie, what PART of being a rock singer do you want? Is it money, being famous, the attention, sex, the music, what?"

 

(her answer completely surprised me, by the way, after working with Julie and being close friends for six years)

 

I think the above relates to Guitar Hero very directly. It's simply kids wanting the attention part of the equation while shortcutting the long, boring practice and study (and just plain hard work) that customarily is required to get there.

 

And, as I posted early, that makes it exactly like karaoke - instant gratification. Karaoke achieves that through a social paradigm shift (it's OK, even funny, to sing crappy in public) whereas Guitar Hero manages it through technology.

 

Terry D.

[the stranger]

This debate reminds me of what a very successful artist manager once asked Julie, my musical partner. She said: "Julie, what PART of being a rock singer do you want? Is it money, being famous, the attention, sex, the music, what?" (her answer completely surprised me, by the way, after working with Julie and being close friends for six years) I think the above relates to Guitar Hero very directly. It's simply kids wanting the attention part of the equation while shortcutting the long, boring practice and study (and just plain hard work) that customarily is required to get there. And, as I posted early, that makes it exactly like karaoke - instant gratification. Karaoke achieves that through a social paradigm shift (it's OK, even funny, to sing crappy in public) whereas Guitar Hero manages it through technology. Terry D.

 

 

I can see that.

[Cry Logic]

I am not debating whether "music" can be created from manipulating a turntable - or any device. I am debating the validity of someone doing the manipulating describing themselves as a "musician", when there is little to no awareness of the rules of music. There's a difference (or there used to be..)..

 

I worked in a big nightclub in the '80s and one of the DJs there was

a classically trained musician. I think he was a clarinet player...not sure..

Anyway... he often did perfect key matches when mixing tunes.

That is to say he could segue from one tune to the other and keep in key

or even perform a key change using 2,3 or more individual songs, to get to

the next song and still remain "musical" and "in key"

His name was Robert Rasic and he was a very good DJ.

Sadly passed away now.

Another DJ who worked at the club , Stephen Alkins (if my memory serves me)

was not a trained musician at all but his extended mix of an old 70's funk tune,

overlayed with Martin Luther Kings "Free at Last" speech was an absolute

howling pisscutter!

Both were good DJs .

Both were musicians IMHO.

What they did required talent, ability and many hours of practice.

[Cry Logic]

Huh? 25 years and no computer games? That's just wrong.

hehehe
Some of us just like computers.
Not computer games.

[penguin_rock]

After being a guitar player for 7 years, I tried Guitar Hero II for the first time at my friend's apartment. I know how to actually play Foo Fighters' "Monkey Wrench", so I fired it up in medium. I immediately began strumming the strum bar as hard as I could, because that's how the song would normally be played, and I was sucking at the game pretty badly. My friend looked at me with a face of shock and horror and yelled, "What are you doing?!?!? You don't play it like a REAL guitar!!!"

He then had to show me that the experience of playing the game, although it develops skill in the player (yes, it does*), is entirely different from the real thing. I had to learn to play the game. I'm not sure if the argument can really be sustained that playing GH develops a sense of time to be applied to learning the guitar, but actually playing the guitar certainly developed my sense of time to be applied to the game.

The experience of beating a song with 5 stars, getting applause, and making money in the game, comes NOWHERE EVEN CLOSE to the joy and satisfaction I get when I play live, in any place. That's a feeling that I can't even describe...

When all is said and done, I realize that the GAME and the ACTUAL THING are entirely separate ventures, and I have fun (different kinds of fun) with both. Is this not a healthy attitude to have?

*Let's talk about the idea of 'skill' for a second. You develop a skill by repeating an act of doing something right. By playing the game and doing everything you're supposed to do to beat, you become good at the game. Same with a real guitar. You develop those habits of doing the right thing. You know what game I think develops and requires the greatest amount of skill to play, even more so than Guitar Hero? Gran Turismo 4. The further you get into the game (okay, I'll nip it in the bud and say if you play it in A-SPEC mode), you have to develop a working knowledge of real-life physics, gear ratios, camber angles, etc. OH MAN, I love that game...

[the stranger]

I am debating the validity of someone doing the manipulating describing themselves as a "musician", when there is little to no awareness of the rules of music.

I am theory ignorant. I'm self taught at guitar, drums, arrangement, etc...I'm a do it all kind of guy. The point is I am very limited in my "musical knowledge", in terms of theory or some set of arbitrary rules. I've been playing guitar for almost twenty years and I get better every time I play. I can play and I have style. But, according to your scholarly definition of "musician", it seems I don't foot the bill.



Rule number one: There are no rules. Some tribal dude hanging in the wilds of Africa banging on a drum isn't aware of your systems of theory, but the tribe considers him a what?

I'm as much a traditionalist as the next guy, and Guitar Hero is probably the scourge you describe it as. But, some guy who is serious about his craft and does posses a musical "knowledge" that plays two turntables shouldn't be discounted as a musical artisan, just because he doesn't fit some 18th century set of rules. And you make all these assumptions about what most DJs are or aren't. Have you talked to any?

Thirty years ago a whole lot of stuff would have been considered insane. But, times change and so does art. If art remained static and played by some lame set of rules, what would that produce? I can listen to the radio if I want to hear endless repetition.

"Conservative" and "liberal" are catch phrases that have been invented and mutated for political reasons, outside of mainstream politics they have no bearing on reality.

I thought you said this type of reductionist thinking was the problem?

I disagree. I believe they do mean something. Regardless of what the system has done with the broader meaning, I try to maintain the traditional definitions, as they are very useful in any type of socio-political discourse.
Reject the propaganda and it isn't an issue. These are actual words in the English language that have specific meanings.

[the stranger]

hehehe Some of us just like computers. Not computer games.

I love computers.

I rarely ever play computer games. I love PS2.

[chipmcdonald]

you're also assuming that if they hadn't played Guitar Hero they'd have gotten to that stage.

 

 

I'm not assuming they're ALL going to, but I am absolutely assuming many would have.

 

 

How many students do you get who just never practice or give up after a short time anyway? A pretty high percentage I'd think.

 

 

It is; but some stick with it and turn around. Regardless, they still have an idea of what it's about, what it takes and how it works.

 

 

 

I don't think GH would succeed at supplanting a kid's desire to play the guitar if the kid has serious aptitude in the first place.

 

 

I disagree. It's distorting; again, that initial condition of being motivated is not an endless well, IMO.

 

 

 

You can get online and find tab, there are a zillion guitar mags with all your heroes giving their "secrets" and this stuff was hard to come by when I was learning.

 

 

Right, but they're not going to bother post-Guitar Hero.

 

 

really after. When they find out they can't get that without years of study and hard work they often lose interest, or settle for the

 

 

But the problem is that they're warped into thinking they *are* getting the real experience.

 

Not only that, consider this:

 

http://www.myspace.com/playgroundguitarhero

 

This bar used to have real bands play on thursday night. The line of "real experience" is blurry for a lot of people.

 

 

I haven't felt for years like there's anything to really "figure out" about guitar anymore. I don't mean for me personally, I mean for somebody starting out.

 

 

I agree, it's a problem. Or rather, the "pioneering" aspect is gone. Somewhere on YouTube there's someone who has practiced Yngwie licks with his toes, or has spent the past year learning to play a Chopin piece two hand on guitar, or some crazy nihonjin has learned every Nintendo video game theme song at double time. So that's depressing; the introspective-discovery aspect has been eroded.

 

But SORT OF, because that's lilusory as well; everything happening today is rehash of something else. There's still plenty to explore, but it's enormously harder. We're in a culling era presently anyhow, IMO.

 

 

distortion pedal who learns how to drop a D string thinks they can play guitar. I don't see that as a whole lot different than Guitar Hero.

 

 

The sad thing is that as primitive as that is - it's still light years beyond GH.

 

 

OK, but you still haven't convinced me that this is any different from a kid who grows up watching spy movies/TV shows and playing spy video games.

 

 

The confusion of the controller being directly related to the activity of "playing guitar" is a unique aspect.

 

 

 

Second, I do continue to see plenty of kids who know the difference, even

 

 

That's the sad thing, AFAIC - post IPod, people in general have become more musically involved with exploring what they're into, not limited to the faux-reality the labels think they've created. The problem is now instead of someone discovering Jeff Beck and learning to appreciate the detail in what he does, they're going to think "gee, if they'd only come out with a Jeff Beck add-on pack for GH so I could learn to play this stuff!". It's a completely warped sense of reality.

 

 

a real drummer or keyboard player anymore, and that these things would supplant real instruments. They haven't;

 

 

I disagree. You've got an enormous genre of music that solely relies on NOT having a drummer as basically the dominant form of music today - rap.

 

How many "rap producers" may have tried being a drummer, if it were not for the ability to go buy a drum machine for $100? How many potentially great drummers have we lost because it never occured to them they needed to learn to play the real thing these days?

[chipmcdonald]

N But what can be done about that, other than trying to set an example?

 

 

For musicians to be consistent overall in pointing out GH is NOT playing a real instrument.