MTV Before Michael Jackson

[Jeff da Weasel]

Take a look at the pop charts in 1981... here's the top 20 singles.

 

1. Bette Davis Eyes, Kim Carnes

2. Celebration, Kool & The Gang

3. Physical, Olivia Newton-John

4. Jessie's Girl, Rick Springfield

5. Keep On Loving You, REO Speedwagon

6. Kiss On My List, Daryl Hall & John Oates

7. Endless Love, Diana Ross & Lionel Richie

8. The Tide Is High, Blondie

9. Super Freak (Part I), Rick James

10. Rapture, Blondie

11. Waiting For A Girl Like You, Foreigner

12. Our Lips Are Sealed, Go-Go's

13. Stop Draggin' My Heart Around, Stevie Nicks / Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers

14. Don't Stop Believin', Journey

15. Private Eyes, Daryl Hall & John Oates

16. Start Me Up, The Rolling Stones

17. Hey Nineteen, Steely Dan

18. Woman, John Lennon

19. Morning Train (Nine To Five), Sheena Easton

20. Guilty, Barbra Streisand & Barry Gibb

 

I think MTV at that time seems very representative of a list like this, whether you're looking at genres, artist races, or whatever.

 

Take a look at the top-selling singles list for 2007, and you will again see a similar representation of MTV coverage. They're going to play what kids who watch the channel are buying, no more, no less. I don't see a big conspiracy here.

[tucktronix]

 

Take a look at the pop charts in 1981... here's the top 20 singles. 1. Bette Davis Eyes, Kim Carnes 2. Celebration, Kool & The Gang 3. Physical, Olivia Newton-John 4. Jessie's Girl, Rick Springfield 5. Keep On Loving You, REO Speedwagon 6. Kiss On My List, Daryl Hall & John Oates 7. Endless Love, Diana Ross & Lionel Richie 8. The Tide Is High, Blondie 9. Super Freak (Part I), Rick James 10. Rapture, Blondie 11. Waiting For A Girl Like You, Foreigner 12. Our Lips Are Sealed, Go-Go's 13. Stop Draggin' My Heart Around, Stevie Nicks / Tom Petty & The Heartbreakers 14. Don't Stop Believin', Journey 15. Private Eyes, Daryl Hall & John Oates 16. Start Me Up, The Rolling Stones 17. Hey Nineteen, Steely Dan 18. Woman, John Lennon 19. Morning Train (Nine To Five), Sheena Easton 20. Guilty, Barbra Streisand & Barry Gibb

 

 

Were those videos really in heavy MTV rotation in 81'? I started watching MTV in 81 and I've hardly seen any videos from much of the songs listed in the top 20. This is the list taken from the MTV yearbook 1981...

 

Blondie "Rapture"

Elvis Costello "Oliver's Army"

The Buggles "Video Killed The Radio Star"

Devo "Whip It"

Robin Lane & The Chartbusters "When Things Go Wrong"

U2 "I Will Follow"

Rod Stewart "She Won't Dance With Me"

Rod Stewart "Sailing"

Rod Stewart "Tonight's the Night (Gonna Be Alright)"

Fleetwood Mac "Tusk"

Lee Ritenour "Mr. Briefcase"

Andrew Gold "Thank You for Being a Friend"

38 Special "Hold on Loosely"

PhD "Little Suzi's on the Up"

Madness "One Step Beyond"

Genesis "No Reply at All"

Steve Winwood "While You See a Chance"

Pat Benatar "You Better Run"(2nd video ever played on MTV, after "Video Killed The Radio Star)

Cliff Richard "We Don't Talk Anymore"

Talking Heads "Once In A Lifetime (Version 2)"

Depeche Mode "Just Can't Get Enough"

The Shoes "Too Late"

Stevie Nicks "Stop Draggin' My Heart Around"

 

Hint: Only a few videos of that list were top 20 hits in '81

 

BTW, having a hit that year doesn't necessarily make you a highly bankable artist. I'm pretty certain that MJ and Stevie Wonder were just as bankable back then. Lets be honest, MTV was nothing more than rebellion for a few angry teenagers before MJ stepped in to the picture.

[Geoff Grace]

 

I'm pretty certain that MJ and Stevie Wonder were just as bankable back then.

 

 

Michael Jackson's Off the Wall (1979) was the biggest selling recording in history by an African American artist until Thriller. (Source)

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[franknputer]

I have a problem with branding people as racist when I wasn't there when they made their decisions. I also think that it probably wasn't so much overt racism as targeting their market. MTV was largely - though not entirely - modeled on the AOR format, so naturally they would be skewed towards rock-type music. Also, I'm sure that they were considering the "look" of the station - not in the terms you're thinking, but in terms of who was doing interesting things with video. It was a fledgling business - almost no one else was trying to fill a station 24/7 with music videos then, so they stretched the bounds of their format.

 

At the same time, they were definitely a corporate entity - so no doubt they tried some seemingly radical things, tested them, and followed the numbers. They've always been about the money, at the core, not about art - or fairness, for that matter.

 

Racial views no doubt played a part, as they have shaped our society for centuries. However, to simply cry "racism!" is to ignore the bigger picture, I think. Is it racist that BET played/plays virtually NO white artists - or again, is it marketing to your base, following a format AND working to please the higher-ups who hold the purse strings?

 

Here's something I wonder: what was the racial makeup of cable viewers in the early 80s? Was it anywhere close to 50/50, or was it skewed towards a particular demographic? I don't know the numbers, BUT - suppose it was 70/30 white/black? Would targeting a brand-new station to a white market then be considered racist, or a sound business decision?

[Roy Brooks]

MTV had some really good music back in the early days. I do not think that it was because they did not want to have black artists. I think it is because they did not want R&B.

[Super 8]

Great points, Franknputer.

 

 

I have a problem with branding people as racist when I wasn't there when they made their decisions. I also think that it probably wasn't so much overt racism as targeting their market. MTV was largely - though not entirely - modeled on the AOR format, so naturally they would be skewed towards rock-type music.

 

 

Exactly. Disco was considered dead in the US by the time Mtv came along. R&B music had been largely assimilated into Disco by 79. The white kids were listening to Arena Rock and emerging New Wave bands like The Police by 81. They didn't want to hear Disco or Electro Funk. It wasn't rascism, it was genre appeal. It took Michael J and Prince to come up with something both the white and black kids could get into. It was a new sound and it had crossover appeal.

[tucktronix]

 

I have a problem with branding people as racist when I wasn't there when they made their decisions. I also think that it probably wasn't so much overt racism as targeting their market. MTV was largely - though not entirely - modeled on the AOR format, so naturally they would be skewed towards rock-type music. Also, I'm sure that they were considering the "look" of the station - not in the terms you're thinking, but in terms of who was doing interesting things with video. It was a fledgling business - almost no one else was trying to fill a station 24/7 with music videos then, so they stretched the bounds of their format. At the same time, they were definitely a corporate entity - so no doubt they tried some seemingly radical things, tested them, and followed the numbers. They've always been about the money, at the core, not about art - or fairness, for that matter. Racial views no doubt played a part, as they have shaped our society for centuries. However, to simply cry "racism!" is to ignore the bigger picture, I think. Is it racist that BET played/plays virtually NO white artists - or again, is it marketing to your base, following a format AND working to please the higher-ups who hold the purse strings? Here's something I wonder: what was the racial makeup of cable viewers in the early 80s? Was it anywhere close to 50/50, or was it skewed towards a particular demographic? I don't know the numbers, BUT - suppose it was 70/30 white/black? Would targeting a brand-new station to a white market then be considered racist, or a sound business decision?

 

 

Here come the floodgates...

 

I really didn't want to go this direction, but you guys leave me no choice. So far, it's been mainly you, Audioicon and Jeff Da Weasel crying "racism" in this thread. Look at the facts and not get sidetracked by your beliefs...

 

Yes, MTV was a fledgling station for rock videos. Yes, just like any fledgling network, they wanted to make money. Hello! It's a freakin' BUSINESS!! However, they were unique, and they were not concentrating on anything on the top 40 at that time, as Jeff had indicated. His theory that MTV wanted videos of hit songs does not hold water since most of the videos that were played on MTV were from artists that were virtually unknown at the time.

 

Take "Video Killed The Radio Star". Was that song even visible on the top 40, or even the top 100 charts at that time? Did anyone at that time even hear of The Buggles? Or Elvis Costello's "Oliver's Army"? A Flock Of Seagulls' "I Ran"(love that song). These artists were not even on the radar until they were on heavy rotation on MTV. They were NOT really looking for bankable artists, or "crossover appeal". MTV had an image to uphold, an image of suburban teen angst. MTV was basically a one-trick pony and it wouldn't have exploded the way it did hadn't it expanded it's repertoire.

 

As for BET - it stands for Black Entertainment Television, and it makes no bones about it, featuring music from black artists. When you live in a country where blacks make up no more than 15% of the population and that very little is made of their history or contributions, it's especially refreshing to see a network where African-Americans can have a voice.

 

So in some ways, I do agree with you. But to imply that MTV was looking for bankable hits is, in all due respect, bull{censored}.

[Jeff da Weasel]

 

So far, it's been mainly you, Audioicon and Jeff Da Weasel crying "racism" in this thread.

 

 

What? I'm crying "money". I think race has no bearing at all. I'm waiting for someone to show some evidence that it does.

[tucktronix]

 

What? I'm crying "money". I think race has no bearing at all. I'm waiting for someone to show some evidence that it does.

 

 

...and I'm saying that money was partly the focal point and image was the other part, and it has been proven.

[Jeff da Weasel]

 

...and I'm saying that money was partly the focal point and image was the other part, and it has been proven.

 

 

But where does race figure in, if at all? The "image" aspect?

[elsongs]

[Super 8]

 

As for BET - it stands for Black Entertainment Television, and it makes no bones about it, featuring music from black artists. When you live in a country where blacks make up no more than 15% of the population and that very little is made of their history or contributions, it's especially refreshing to see a network where African-Americans can have a voice.

 

 

Sorry to get off-topic, but I always thought BET mainly just reinforced negitive black stereotypes, and gave the floor over to corrupt evangelists like Robert Tilton, who prey upon those who are struggling financially. Not that all blacks are struggling of course but certainly many are, and often those who are not are busting their asses night and day to keep afloat.

 

I never saw BET as a positive thing for the black community. Hope I'm wrong about that.

[franknputer]

Geez, tuck - show me ONE place where Jeff or I "cried racism".

 

Now to me, your points just don't seem to add up - and here's why:

 

1. "Video Killed The Radio Star" was #1 on the UK charts in '79. I've already pointed out that playing this song is an obvious marketing move on MTV's part.

 

2. MTV's "image" was still being defined in these early years. I think it was more about appearing as "different" than traditional music outlets, because they had to convince a large part of the population not only that they were cool & hip, but that TV was the next wave of music delivery.

 

"Suburban Teen Angst" is pretty vague, and I don't think they really focused on this until a bit later. (On the other hand, rock is all about teen angst, isn't it?)

 

3. I, for one, never said they were trying to play "The Hits". Were they looking for bankable artists? Of course they were - in the sense that they needed to air stuff that was compelling to watch. At that time, making videos was not yet standard procedure for bands, either, which further limited the pool of stuff to choose from. It was not their gig, however, to promote artists any more than it is radio's gig. Their purpose is to sell ads between songs. By the time MTV even got a video, somebody else had stuck their neck out & invested in promoting that artist.

 

4. Because they were aiming for a global market & not a local one (like terrestrial broadcasting) they paid attention to playing stuff that would appeal to the European market too - which explains not only the Buggles, but

several other bands like U2 (before Bono became God), Madness, & others, & why their playlist wasn't just a reflection of the US pop charts.

 

You have to remember too that this was all new territory at the time, so while people took a lot of gambles, they also had to play carefully. You can't just try to hit everything at the expense of all your resources.

 

There were some other music video channels that came up fast too, and they went away just as fast...largely because MTV hit early & hit big, and then strongarmed the major record labels into giving them 30-day exclusivity agreements, which effectively put any potential competitors in the back seat.

 

Now, if I ran a label & was in that position, I would try to word it so that they were at least limited in some fashion...so if they didn't play R&B, then I wouldn't give them those rights.

 

This is really a Big Business story with a lot of twists, with cause & effects going in every direction - and I'll say it ONE MORE TIME: while I agree that it probably is a factor, it is only ONE of many in their decision-making processes; they did, in fact, play more black artists than any rock radio outlet of the day did; and so, to simply chalk up their decision to not play this or that black artist to racism is missing most of the details of the larger picture.

[franknputer]

 

I never saw BET as a positive thing for the black community. Hope I'm wrong about that.

 

I imagine it has been, actually, although maybe a bit of a double-edged sword. You do run the risk of pigeonholing blacks into a small box - the "black" channel - but at the same time, it's definitely given them more visibility alongside all the other channels, which are still overwhelmingly white OR tend to work with stereotypical images & characters too often. TV, though, tends to work better with short & simple concepts, which is why journalism has suffered so much in recent years...but I digress.

[Geoff Grace]

Disco was considered dead in the US by the time Mtv came along. R&B music had been largely assimilated into Disco by 79.

 

I agree with the first sentence and disagree with the second.

 

Yes, I remember the fashionable "Disco Sucks" t-shirts and the disco record bonfires in the late 70s/early 80s. There's no denying that disco skyrocketed and then plummeted in popularity.

 

But during that period, R&B was a separate genre just like rock. Sure, some artists crossed over in both genres -- Earth, Wind, and Fire released "Boogie Wonderland" and Rod Stewart released "Do You Think I'm Sexy?" -- but plenty of R&B was hard core funk during that period and plenty of rock steered clear of disco too.

 

If you think acts like Rick James, Prince, Cameo, the Bar-Kays, Parliament, and Funkadelic, "had been largely assimilated into Disco by 79," then I urge you to take another listen and compare them with The Bee Gees, Donna Summer, Sylvester, and Giorgio Moroder. It's the difference between syncopation and four on the floor.

 

One thing that disco had that few, if any, other genres have had was a more balanced participation from a wide variety of groups: black, white, Latino, gay, straight, men, and women. In that regard, it was something of an equal opportunity utopia. I sometimes wonder if that's part of why there was such a strong backlash...

 

Best,

 

Geoff

[tucktronix]

Geez, tuck - show me ONE place where Jeff or I "cried racism".

Ok franknputer, I'll raise you another...

 

If you carefully read my first post on the matter, you'll see that I was simply debating Jeff's theory about bankable artists. Then you decide to drop the R-bomb...

have a problem with branding people as racist when I wasn't there when they made their decisions. I also think that it probably wasn't so much overt racism as targeting their market. MTV was largely - though not entirely - modeled on the AOR format, so naturally they would be skewed towards rock-type music. Also, I'm sure that they were considering the "look" of the station - not in the terms you're thinking, but in terms of who was doing interesting things with video. It was a fledgling business - almost no one else was trying to fill a station 24/7 with music videos then, so they stretched the bounds of their format.

I've never even hinted that race was a sole factor in MTV's choosing of artists, just merely questioning some of the misleading info that was posted. You guys got hot under the collar and started playing the "crybaby" card. As a matter of fact, go back a few posts ago and you'll find what I was debating in the first place:

But you missed the real point: if there was more money to be made on black artists at that time period, MTV would have been all over it.

He clearly implied that black artists weren't bankable at that time period. Whether or not you find fault with that statement, it is without a doubt, utter bull{censored}.

 

Now to me, your points just don't seem to add up - and here's why: 1. "Video Killed The Radio Star" was #1 on the UK charts in '79. I've already pointed out that playing this song is an obvious marketing move on MTV's part.

Hello! Go back and re-read your post. "Video Killed The Radio Star" was #1 on the UK charts in '79. That's exactly my point. Usually, whenever a song does well in the UK, that artist will often take aim at the US. Having a UK #1 hit does not guarantee acceptance by the US labels or the worldwide music-buying public at all. There are a lot of bands who don't even make it out of the UK. This song was originally recorded in '79 and didn't make much ground in the US. Like you said, MTV took a gamble and really had no idea what to expect. Yes, that song was a marketing move to symbolize their new concept, but the move was still risky.

 

2. MTV's "image" was still being defined in these early years. I think it was more about appearing as "different" than traditional music outlets, because they had to convince a large part of the population not only that they were cool & hip, but that TV was the next wave of music delivery.

...and I agree wholehartedly. They were looking to be unique, which disputes the theory of "bankable" artists

 

"Suburban Teen Angst" is pretty vague, and I don't think they really focused on this until a bit later. (On the other hand, rock is all about teen angst, isn't it?)

That was their main focal point when the network was started. Ever noticed the commercials, promos?? The chainsaws? The neon astronaut on the moon? The screams of "I WANT MY MTV!!". They were primarily aiming at the teenage market, promoting a new "hip and cool".

 

3. I, for one, never said they were trying to play "The Hits". Were they looking for bankable artists? Of course they were - in the sense that they needed to air stuff that was compelling to watch.

"Bankable artists" is a misleading term. They weren't really looking for bankable artists more than they were looking for bankable videos.

 

4. Because they were aiming for a global market & not a local one (like terrestrial broadcasting) they paid attention to playing stuff that would appeal to the European market too - which explains not only the Buggles, but several other bands like U2 (before Bono became God), Madness, & others, & why their playlist wasn't just a reflection of the US pop charts.

Exactly. Read your points and Jeff's points carefully, you guys are not on the same wavelength as you might think. First, he even implied himself that race was a factor, and then he goes to dispute his own theory.

 

You have to remember too that this was all new territory at the time, so while people took a lot of gambles, they also had to play carefully. You can't just try to hit everything at the expense of all your resources.

Agreed

[franknputer]

tuck, when I mentioned racism that time I wasn't actually talking to you. Gordon Gekko was the one who brought that up again, after I'd already made my point with the OP on the subject. (Remember how the thread started?) You then accused me & Jeff of "crying racism" when we were, in fact, attempting to counter that argument.

 

As for the Buggles video, I think you're over-thinking it. It wasn't so much some huge gamble so much as somebody's idea of a clever marketing ploy. It's not like they suddenly put the Buggles every song into rotation.

 

As for the "teen angst" angle, I guess I left one thing out -"duh". Rock and angst...whoda thought it? Still, the point was that they needed to take a broader aim, which is why they did some of the "risky" things they did with the playlist.

 

Oh - and Jeff & I are not collaborating on our posts, so there's no surprise we're "not on the same wavelength". You are the one who lumped us together.

[tucktronix]

 

What? I'm crying "money". I think race has no bearing at all. I'm waiting for someone to show some evidence that it does.

 

 

Funny, you sure had voiced an opposing viewpoint earlier in this thread..,

 

But you missed the real point: if there was more money to be made on black artists at that time period, MTV would have been all over it.

 

[Jeff da Weasel]

 

Funny, you sure had voiced an opposing viewpoint earlier in this thread..,

 

 

That is the exact same viewpoint. Race has nothing to do with it. Money has everything to do with it. If they thought they would have been able to make more money from their advertisers by focusing on black artists earlier, they would have.

 

Why do I have to keep writing the same thing for you, Tuck? Do you have some kind of reading comprehension problem? If so, I apologize for pointing out your challenges.

 

I think MTV is a joke, by the way. There's nothing "music" about it. It's a lifestyle channel. If you enjoy that, then fine.

[tucktronix]

tuck, when I mentioned racism that time I wasn't actually talking to you. Gordon Gekko was the one who brought that up again, after I'd already made my point with the OP on the subject. (Remember how the thread started?) You then accused me & Jeff of "crying racism" when we were, in fact, attempting to counter that argument.

All apologies;)

 

As for the Buggles video, I think you're over-thinking it. It wasn't so much some huge gamble so much as somebody's idea of a clever marketing ploy. It's not like they suddenly put the Buggles every song into rotation.

It definitely paid off in the end, but it was still a huge gamble considering that this was virtually unknown group at the time

 

Oh - and Jeff & I are not collaborating on our posts, so there's no surprise we're "not on the same wavelength". You are the one who lumped us together.

Sorry for the misunderstanding, but I've seen plenty of posters here getting "gangbanged" for sharing a unpopular viewpoint. In many of the cases, it was entirely necessary, but you get my point;)

[tucktronix]

 

That is the exact same viewpoint. Race has nothing to do with it. Money has everything to do with it. If they thought they would have been able to make more money from their advertisers by focusing on black artists earlier, they would have. Why do I have to keep writing the same thing for you, Tuck? Do you have some kind of reading comprehension problem? If so, I apologize for pointing out your challenges. I think MTV is a joke, by the way. There's nothing "music" about it. It's a lifestyle channel. If you enjoy that, then fine.

 

Do you ever read your posts? You really should... because that post didn't make much sense at all. You implied that black artists weren't bankable, that MTV wouldn't have made much money from black artists, and I've strongly disputed that argument, and rightfully so. So, you've actually said that race was indeed a factor.

 

Once again, I've never hinted at the idea of race playing a major factor, but you keep implying that I have. Your idea about MTV finding artists that are bankable doesn't hold much water. First of all, they were looking for a fresh face, videos symbolizing rock-angst. MTV took a gamble. Do you really think that The Buggles were more bankable than Michael Jackson or Lionel Ritchie?

 

Jeff, do yourself a favor. Go back, re-read our last conversation and see if you can find where I've outwardly said that race was a factor. Don't knock yourself out;)

[Jeff da Weasel]

 

Don't knock yourself out;)

 

 

Oh, trust me, I'm not. As in, I'm not re-reading any of this crap. At this point, I don't care whether you think MTV is made up of hood-wearing KKK members.

 

Best of luck with your issues.

[tucktronix]

Oh, trust me, I'm not. As in, I'm not re-reading any of this crap. At this point, I don't care whether you think MTV is made up of hood-wearing KKK members. Best of luck with your issues.

 

Then don't bother. Just don't go around accusing me and putting words in my mouth, that's all. You are the one with the issues, pal.

[audioicon]

My views are my views. You don't have to read it or agree with my posts.

 

I'm not looking for approval or trying to be your favorite post man.

 

Audioicon

[Gordon Gekko]

I have a problem with branding people as racist when I wasn't there when they made their decisions. I also think that it probably wasn't so much overt racism as targeting their market. MTV was largely - though not entirely - modeled on the AOR format, so naturally they would be skewed towards rock-type music. Also, I'm sure that they were considering the "look" of the station - not in the terms you're thinking, but in terms of who was doing interesting things with video. It was a fledgling business - almost no one else was trying to fill a station 24/7 with music videos then, so they stretched the bounds of their format. At the same time, they were definitely a corporate entity - so no doubt they tried some seemingly radical things, tested them, and followed the numbers. They've always been about the money, at the core, not about art - or fairness, for that matter. Racial views no doubt played a part, as they have shaped our society for centuries. However, to simply cry "racism!" is to ignore the bigger picture, I think. Is it racist that BET played/plays virtually NO white artists - or again, is it marketing to your base, following a format AND working to please the higher-ups who hold the purse strings? Here's something I wonder: what was the racial makeup of cable viewers in the early 80s? Was it anywhere close to 50/50, or was it skewed towards a particular demographic? I don't know the numbers, BUT - suppose it was 70/30 white/black? Would targeting a brand-new station to a white market then be considered racist, or a sound business decision?

 

no one is SIMPLY CRYING RACISM I just presented FACTS about the MTV

I remember listening to WLAC/WVOL radio in Nashville during this same time period. It was much more open racially then early MTV. I could hear Doobie Brothers, Player, Gino Vanelli along side P-Funk, Stevie Wonder and EWF. So it seems they made a decision to focus on Artist INSTEAD of GENRE. EX. Hall and Oates, Lee Ritenour Todd Rundgren played SOULFUL music . MTV just didn't play Black SOULFUL artist GIVE IT UP!!!!!!!!!!