mic pre-amp for live vocals?

[RyanC]

I have been putting together a PA for our rock band and am now trying to figure out what gear I need to make our vocals sound as good as possible (besides having a good singer!). Is a unit like the TC M-One XL a good place to start to get some delay and reverb, or should I be getting a mic pre-amp first? For now, I want to spend less than $500 to get whatever I need to make the vocals sound as good as possible.

[twostone]

Save your cash for a good board and forget about a mic-pre's These guys can tell you more about which boards have the best mic-pre's. also use a shearch on this topic you'll get the answer you need.

[RyanC]

Thanks for the advice. So a good mixing board has good mic pre's which eliminates the need for a seperate mic pre-amp?

[jverbarg]

Allen & Heath MixWiz boards are well known for being reasonable cost and sound great.

 

If you are just getting started in running a PA, keep it simple. Don't get an external pre-amp, it will just add too much complexity. And if not done right can actually make things sound worse.

 

If you get an A&H MixWiz board it has some FX built in. If you don't like those, then start looking at an external FX unit like the M-One XL.

 

Depending on what your problems are though, a different FX processor may not really help. There are many variables when it comes to improving the sound of a singer, first and foremost the mic and the way the singer uses it. Adding more processing can only do so much.

[twostone]

You got it, alot of guys reommend Allen&Heath and Soundcraft but that all depends on your buget you can ask again which boards get the most bang for your buck on whatever you decide to buy. And I recommend stay away from Behringer boards they have the features of quality boards but lack the qualitiy.

[tlbonehead]

Originally posted by RyanC Thanks for the advice. So a good mixing board has good mic pre's which eliminates the need for a seperate mic pre-amp?

You got it. Even a budget board has mic preamps that are plenty good. What are you using and/or thinking of getting for equipment?

[RyanC]

I'm going with stuff that is decent quality but on a budget. For PA gear so far, I have 2 RMX 1850HD power amps, 4 Yamaha club 15" cabs, SM-58 and SM-57 mics, and a borrowed Mackie 16 channel mixer (looks a little older). I plan to eventually use 1 RMX1850 to run all 4 Yamaha Clubs (will be 2 ohm load), and have 1 RMX1850 to run future subs. I'll eventually have to get monitors as well. So right now at practice, we're just running vocals with no effects or enhancement, but I know there's different kinds of stuff out there that will make the vocals sound better (fuller, etc.). Just wondering what the first thing is I should get. Thanks

[tlbonehead]

Originally posted by RyanC I'm going with stuff that is decent quality but on a budget. For PA gear so far, I have 2 RMX 1850HD power amps, 4 Yamaha club 15" cabs, SM-58 and SM-57 mics, and a borrowed Mackie 16 channel mixer (looks a little older). I plan to eventually use 1 RMX1850 to run all 4 Yamaha Clubs (will be 2 ohm load), and have 1 RMX1850 to run future subs. I'll eventually have to get monitors as well. So right now at practice, we're just running vocals with no effects or enhancement, but I know there's different kinds of stuff out there that will make the vocals sound better (fuller, etc.). Just wondering what the first thing is I should get. Thanks

Can you trade a pair of the clubs for a pair of modest subs? That would make more sense to me. As for lack of effects at practice,that is a good thing. That way you get used to your dry tone and aren't freaked out at the gigs when your vocals sound so dead through the monitors.

[RyanC]

I suppose I could. We won't be playing out anywhere for quite awhile anyway, so we're just using 1 pair of Clubs for practice. We're working on originals for recording. If we were going to play somewhere that wasn't too big, I could use a cross-over and use 1 cabinet as a sub, and run my mids and highs through the other cab, which should be alot more efficient, right? Probably won't need to worry about that for awhile though. I was just figuring out what I might get that would make the vocals sound better now, and give my self plenty of time to play with it to get it adjusted right so I'm ready when we do play somewhere.

[Unalaska]

Usig a mid/high box as a sub can be a very bad thing, usually for the speaker. There's really no reason to use 2 per side of a full range speaker without subs. Unless 2 of the club speakers are wedges you'd be best to swap out for a pair of subs and use one channel of 1850 to drive tops and another for subs (external crossover required).

 

Monitors are a big advantage and will help the most when performing live. I assume the speakers you have now are fine for practice (facing back at the band) but when playing out you'll need something to play back.

 

BTW when you mentioned running all 4 yamaha boxes at a 2ohm load, were you planning on bridging an 1850 into 2 ohms? Take the batteries out of your smoke detector first and plan on reconing everything afterwards, the 1850 and any amp for that matter will not tolerate a 2 ohm bridged load. 2 ohms PER CHANNEL is great and the 1850 was designed for heavy duty 2ohm stereo use.

 

As far as pres go, don't bother. I've been a mackie fan for many years now (not many people are) and they make good stuff that is roadworthy. That's way more than I can say for Nady, Behr, etc. The earlier 1604 was a real mess as far as layout and input gains being different (ch1-6 vs 7-16, inserts on the first 8 channels, optional XLR attachment). The later 1604's are good for recording and ok or live use but you may find that 2 pre-fade aux sends isn't enough. The A&H mix-wiz has 4 pre-fade plus another 2 for either internal FX or for using elsewhere. Look at the newer PV boards as well, some great thing are coming out these days.

 

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[RyanC]

Each Yamaha Club cabinet has a 15" woofer and a horn for mids and highs. If I sent the lows to 1 cab on each side, then I would be just using it as a sub, right? (Only the 15" woofers would be producing sound.) If I sent the low mids and higher to the 2nd cab on each side, I've heard that I'll get a several decibal increase vs. just running both cabs full range. I guess that it ultimately doesn't matter because I would like to eventually get 2 18" subs on each side anyway (and then I would just send low mids and higher to the Clubs). As far as running all 4 Club cabs off one amp - each cab is 4 ohms, so if I ran 2 per side, that would be 2 ohm stereo per side, right? I wasn't going to bridge the amp. Thanks for all the input everybody. Guess it sounds like I don't need to worry about a seperate mic pre-amp - I'll just save up to get a decent quality mixer. So I guess the next question is, do I get a mixer with delay and reverb built in, or buy a seperate processor like the TC M-one XL? Or is there some other piece of equipment I should be considering for vocal enhancement?

[tlbonehead]

Originally posted by RyanC Each Yamaha Club cabinet has a 15" woofer and a horn for mids and highs. If I sent the lows to 1 cab on each side, then I would be just using it as a sub, right? (Only the 15" woofers would be producing sound.) If I sent the low mids and higher to the 2nd cab on each side, I've heard that I'll get a several decibal increase vs. just running both cabs full range. I guess that it ultimately doesn't matter because I would like to eventually get 2 18" subs on each side anyway (and then I would just send low mids and higher to the Clubs). As far as running all 4 Club cabs off one amp - each cab is 4 ohms, so if I ran 2 per side, that would be 2 ohm stereo per side, right? I wasn't going to bridge the amp. Thanks for all the input everybody. Guess it sounds like I don't need to worry about a seperate mic pre-amp - I'll just save up to get a decent quality mixer. So I guess the next question is, do I get a mixer with delay and reverb built in, or buy a seperate processor like the TC M-one XL? Or is there some other piece of equipment I should be considering for vocal enhancement?

Please don't tell us you have the dual woofer Clubs. I think they are the only 4 ohm model. If not,they should be 8 ohms.

[RyanC]

No I don't have the dual woofer Clubs - why don't you like them just for curiosity??? The 4 cabs I have each have (1) 15" woofer and 1 horn. A Yamaha dealer had told me that each cab was 4 ohms, so running two off each side of an amp would be 2 ohms. But that's just what he said, I don't know.

[agedhorse]

 

Originally posted by RyanC No I don't have the dual woofer Clubs - why don't you like them just for curiosity??? The 4 cabs I have each have (1) 15" woofer and 1 horn. A Yamaha dealer had told me that each cab was 4 ohms, so running two off each side of an amp would be 2 ohms. But that's just what he said, I don't know.

 

Bad info... unless he knows something that we don't know;)

[jverbarg]

 

Originally posted by RyanC ...Guess it sounds like I don't need to worry about a seperate mic pre-amp - I'll just save up to get a decent quality mixer. So I guess the next question is, do I get a mixer with delay and reverb built in, or buy a seperate processor like the TC M-one XL? Or is there some other piece of equipment I should be considering for vocal enhancement?

 

 

Getting a mixer with the FX built in will be cheaper. If cost is an issue, consider a Yamaha MG series. You can get them with or without the FX built in.

 

If you decide to get the TC M-One XL you will not be disappointed. It is a very good unit and comes highly recommended. Again, if cost is an issue, consider the M300.

 

What to get next? I would tend to get a mixer next. I don't like borrowing equipment and you will probably see an improvement in sound quality over the old mackie.

 

BTW, getting a really good pre-amp and running the signal into a low cost mixer defeats the whole purpose of the good pre-amp. Dedicated pre-amps are meant to be used with recording studio quality boards that are waaaaaay out of your price range.

[RyanC]

Thanks Josh. I am on a budget. For the money, are the effects in mixers in the

[agedhorse]

 

Originally posted by RyanC Thanks Josh. I am on a budget. For the money, are the effects in mixers in the

 

 

For your application, you would be better off with all in one. The Yamaha's are a pretty good value.

[RyanC]

The MG16 is only $379, but only has 8 mic inputs and 4 stereo line inputs. The next step up is the MG24 for $900 which has 16 mic inputs. Quite a jump in price. I'm guessing I would need at least 12 channels, most which would be mics.

[jverbarg]

If you're getting into the $900 range then you've hit the price range for the MixWizard 16:2. It has a smaller footprint than the yamaha would and gives you your 12 channels.

[RyanC]

I'd kind of like to stay down in the

[agedhorse]

 

Originally posted by RyanC Thanks Josh. I am on a budget.

 

 

Then sell the damn Furman voltage regulator... that was wasted money.

[jverbarg]

Looking at the details on the MG16 it has 10 XLR microphone inputs (Two of the stereo inputs have an XLR input). If that's not enough you can try to save for a little longer and pick up a MixWiz on ebay for around $600.00. You won't be sorry if you save up and get the better board.

[sanfransycho]

First off, its a shame there's not a "Vocals" section to this otherwise perfect website.

 

Anyways, I've been a rock singer for 18 years and have always looked for ways to improve my sound.

 

Some cheap items to consider which have done wonders with my sound:

 

BBE Sonic Maximizer - $139 new

Alesis Quadraverb - $100 used

Compressor Limiter - $100 used

Tube Preamp (single channel), like $99 brand new.

 

The BBE and Quadraverb you can run through the effects loop. The compressor you can do the same, but I run mine between the board and the mains/monitors. I use about 3:1 compression. I don't bother with gating my mic.

 

The tube pre, I bought on a whim, and I take it anytime I play. It runs inline between my mic and my board (or the house board) and definitely makes my SM58 sound as good or better than the beta, just all around improves my tone.

 

So, no offense to all the nay-sayers, but I love my tube mic pre, its small, and easy to move around. Best of all its was $99 new.

 

I guess you just need to be cautious with your settings as it can feed back if you have the levels too high.

 

If anyone has experience with ear monitors, would love to read a post with info and recommendations. They're expensive and I'm not sure what to get.

 

Thanks...!

 

Jay

 

Floor wedges are a definite must, but you may also consider headphone monitors if your budget allows. That's what i'm working on now.

[agedhorse]

You know, for all the years I have provider sound for national "A" circuit touring acts (well over a thousand of these type of shows), only once or twice have the FOH engineers ever brought a mic pre.

 

It's always the newbie, amateur "eyes full of wonder" acts that carry such stuff. Even wonder why... because they are convinced that it needed in order to be successful. They read too many of the Sound Fantesy Wet Dream magazines, where everything is pimped as necessary to make it big. The pros already know they don't need such stuff, especially for the

 

At the top, there are some special use pres and vocal processors that get used on a selected input, generally for a particular eq style or compression preference, but certainly not the $99 specials... or the $199 specials or...

 

[end of rant]

[sanfransycho]

LOL - Ok, I guess its official then.

 

I'm a newbie, an amateur, and I don't use my mic pre because it improves my tone, but because I'm convinced without it I'll be a loser...!

 

However, i didn't get the idea from magazines or manufacturer hype. I know a studio engineer that uses expensive tube pre's on each channel to 'warm' up the sound.

 

When I saw the $99 tube pre, i said what the heck, I'll try it for live singing. I plugged it all in, and based on my tone, i prefer singing through it now. Its a 1/2 1U and fits easily in my gig bag, so its easy to bring along.

 

Best i can say is plug one in and try it out for yourself. I am personally convinced that my tube pre improves my tone.

 

I'm also not someone to recommend for or against something without at least trying it myself. I happen to like the inexpensive tube pre. I've seen some other nice preamps, but haven't bothered to try them.

 

Has anyone else even tried one?