Acoustic Blues

[herbie d]

I have a buddy who owns a small restaurant, and we started playing Acoustic Blues there about once every 4-6 weeks, a while back. No sound system or anything. Guitar, stand-up bass, mandolin, fiddle, harmonica, and singers.

The no sound system thing has been going well up untill now. The crowd is growing, so... seating is happening in other rooms to hold the crowd.

The owner was asking me about sound equip, (as in if he should buy and install a small system) and I was telling him I thought it would work fine to put a few overhead mics in the ceiling above the stage, and fly a few small cabinets in the other rooms. I'm thinking it will still have that no sound system kind of sound, and not have the clutter of instrument micing, vocal mics and stands, etc.etc. The actual room and stage you play on is quite small. The room with the stage might seat 50. Then there's some rooms that adjoin that room via 6 ft entries, that you can actually see the little stage from. Those rooms might seat 65-70 each. (the sound is thin in those rooms)

Part of the lure of his place is, it sounds good with no sound system, the music actually fills the restaurant fairly well, everyone comments on how nice it is that its not so loud. Its close and personable. Folks show-up, eat a meal, then buy drinks for the remainder of the night. Its been profitable for us all. The problem is, its getting popular and all the additional people are soaking-up the sound. The owner is looking at getting other bands along with ours and doing it more than our every 4-6 weeks.

So... what do you use? A few condenser mics up in the ceiling, above the small stage, suitcase mixer, and fly a few small cabinets in those adjoining rooms?

[agedhorse]

Mics like that would be fine to feed another room, but probably not great as the source of reinforcement in the primary room IME. The problem is that you will be really limited getting the vocals up over everything else. How are you doing the vocals now?

[herbie d]

 

Mics like that would be fine to feed another room, but probably not great as the source of reinforcement in the primary room IME. The problem is that you will be really limited getting the vocals up over everything else. How are you doing the vocals now?

 

 

We are doing it now with "no" sound system. None, nadda, for vocals or anything. It sounds really good in the room we are playing. That room has been packed since day one, and still sounded good. I'm not sure if its the way the ceiling is shaped or what. Its kind of a half story looking room. walls are about 5 ft, then an open ceiling with exposed rafters. Slopes up in the middle, so the peak is maybe 14 ft? Rafters are about 8 ft up. above on the underside of the rafters is finished with some kind of wood boards.

Those adjoining rooms, (where the sound is thin) the walls are 8 ft, the ceiling is acoustic tile.

[dennis a]

What is your budget for this system?

 

Dennis

[herbie d]

this is what he showed me.

http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/Soundcraft-GigRac-600-8Channel-Powered-Mixer?sku=630924

 

http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/Yamaha-BR10-10-2Way-Cabinet-Pair?sku=600461

 

http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/AudioTechnica-AT8010-Omnidirectional-Condenser-Microphone-?sku=275054

 

One speaker in each of the adjoining rooms, none in the main room. 2-3 over head mics, above the stage.

 

I'm not sure how he came up with these items, because even though he is an awsome cook, and has a vast knowledge of beer and wine, I wouldn't think he could choose any of this stuff himself. Heck, I'm not really sure how to point him.

I know he talked to a local sound supplier, but they were trying to sell him a rather large Mackie powered system, with a pair of speakers/room, (6 total) and some powered floor monitors, and several mics and stands, (instrument and vocal). Heck with all that, there wouldn't be room for the band.

[herbie d]

 

What is your budget for this system? Dennis

 

Like all venue owners, cheap. No wait he's not cheap... inexpensive/value.

[agedhorse]

The BR-10's are pretty sucky IMO, and the omni capsules are not what I would choose as there would be way too much "room" in the other rooms.

 

1 speaker per room might be just fine, but choose something better.

[herbie d]

 

The BR-10's are pretty sucky IMO, and the omni capsules are not what I would choose as there would be way too much "room" in the other rooms. 1 speaker per room might be just fine, but choose something better.

 

 

Can you suggest a few mics? I was thinking, one near the stand-up bass, and maybe two to pick-up maybe a ten foot stage width at the front of the stage, (stage is prop 12x6, tops) 3 mic's all the same?

I think the yorkville e10's would be fine. (maybe e12's) He could buy them local as well.

[dennis a]

The following link does not fall into the inexpensive category but will do a good job of reproducing acoustic music. They come stock in black or white and you can get them in custom colors as well. The system could be virtually invisible. It's my understanding that we are talking low volume acoustic music in the adjoining rooms to match the level of the non-amplified acoustic music in the main room. If so, I don't think you would need many of these in each adjoining room. If you have plans to rock out in the future, this is not the solution.

 

http://www.meyersound.com/products/industrialseries/mm-4xp/

 

Dennis

[agedhorse]

 

Can you suggest a few mics? I was thinking, one near the stand-up bass, and maybe two to pick-up maybe a ten foot stage width at the front of the stage, (stage is prop 12x6, tops) 3 mic's all the same? I think the yorkville e10's would be fine. (maybe e12's) He could buy them local as well.

 

 

QSC K-8 is an ideal speaker for the job IMO, and reasonabley priced too.

[trevcda]

I see this as something that could be nicely done with something like Control28's with some slight delays added and level control for each zone that could be automated, depending on the performance.

 

Two things that will ruin the ambience that is so nice now is a)some over-zealous wanna-be sound designer (look to your local MI music store) who will recommend some ridiculous el-cheapo sound system to cover the whole venue from the stage and b)somebody's untrained cousin getting appointed to run the thing that is convinced that it has to "rock" the place or else what is the point.

 

Look to someone who is well versed in distributed audio not just SR and let them know how is intended to be used. The right system will open up the venue to other entertainment options such as comedy and other arts that will help off set the cost of the system and allow for a flexability that a convention PA won't.

[agedhorse]

 

I see this as something that could be nicely done with something like Control28's with some slight delays added and level control for each zone that could be automated, depending on the performance.

 

 

Another good option, though not powered (pros and cons).

[herbie d]

Thanks for the recommendations guys! I'll sit down with the owner and take a closer look at them.

What about suggestions for the overhead condenser mics I was talking about?

[agedhorse]

 

What about suggestions for the overhead condenser mics I was talking about?

 

 

I do not think yo will be happy with the results. Try one on a tall mic stand and see if it works for you.

[Shaster]

My guess... if the room is quite small, using condenser mics "far from the source" (three to six feet plus) is also going to pick up audience members. Feedback and phase issues could also be a factor.

 

Maybe a dynamic mic used in the traditional fashion would suffice. Most acoustic guitars, acoustic basses... will carry over a slightly amplified vocal - at least IME. And they'll bleed into the vocal mic anyway, as long as you're using something with a looser pick-up pattern; so the singer doesn't have to eat the mic.

 

+1 for a couple of E10's, and a small powered mixer.

[herbie d]

OK... I went over to the Club last night, and drug some of my equip with me, and tried a set-up for a jam session. The stuff I had was way bigger than needed, but I gave it a shot. (Pair of 15+1 full range, mix wiz and The smallest power amp I own. I set my board up in the adjoining room, and did alot of walking back and forth.

I borrowed a condenser mic off a buddy, (he uses it for a home studio) I think it was a kinda cheap one. (I don't know that this is the one, but it looked like this. http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/MXL-992-LargeDiaphragm-Condenser-Microphone?sku=273162 ) I hung it from the ceiling, about center stage, up at the front. It seemed to work...OK.... as the room filled up, I did get alot of room noise in it as well. When instruments would solo, I'd tell them to step forward near it and when they were done back off. I was loosing the stand-up bass as the place started to fill, and stuck a 57 on it and that seemed ok.

I wonder if you could shield the mic hanging from the ceiling so you don't hear as much crowd noise, then kinda do the same thing with one over the Bass.

When I see a choir singing, I see a mic in the air on either end of the group, then one up front, I guess for a solo singer...what kind of mics are those ?

What would be cool, is if the owner could just come in, turn on the system, and never really do anything with it. ie, moving mics around for different instruments, more or less singers, etc, etc. Just kinda works.

[RoadRanger]

What would be cool, is if the owner could just come in, turn on the system, and never really do anything with it. ie, moving mics around for different instruments, more or less singers, etc, etc. Just kinda works.

Yah, then all them nasty sound people could go out and get real jobs and stop ripping everyone off when everything works just as well without them .

[Shaster]

 

OK... I went over to the Club last night, and drug some of my equip with me, and tried a set-up for a jam session. The stuff I had was way bigger than needed, but I gave it a shot. (Pair of 15+1 full range, mix wiz and The smallest power amp I own. I set my board up in the adjoining room, and did alot of walking back and forth. I borrowed a condenser mic off a buddy, (he uses it for a home studio) I think it was a kinda cheap one. (I don't know that this is the one, but it looked like this. http://pro-audio.musiciansfriend.com/product/MXL-992-LargeDiaphragm-Condenser-Microphone?sku=273162 ) I hung it from the ceiling, about center stage, up at the front. It seemed to work...OK.... as the room filled up, I did get alot of room noise in it as well. When instruments would solo, I'd tell them to step forward near it and when they were done back off. I was loosing the stand-up bass as the place started to fill, and stuck a 57 on it and that seemed ok. I wonder if you could shield the mic hanging from the ceiling so you don't hear as much crowd noise, then kinda do the same thing with one over the Bass. When I see a choir singing, I see a mic in the air on either end of the group, then one up front, I guess for a solo singer...what kind of mics are those ? What would be cool, is if the owner could just come in, turn on the system, and never really do anything with it. ie, moving mics around for different instruments, more or less singers, etc, etc. Just kinda works.

 

 

I'm still trying to find a Garden Shop that sells money trees - but I'll guess I'll have to keep working until then:)

 

It's hard to re-invent the wheel. That's why folks have not been too keen on condensers in such a confined space, and location.

 

It seems like a sound person is needed, so why not create a position for yourself? If you can make the owner see the benefit of good quality sound, you've talked yourself into a relatively easy job. Provide a small PA, with a few mics.... drop in at the beginning of the night, set things up, and then go home and watch TV if you want to (when you're not playing the gig).

 

Get the bartender.... to pack up the mics... at the end of the night.

 

OR if that's too much, get the owner to buy a system, and let the bands figure it out.

[Gregidon]

Herbie, If you really want to preserve the acoustic vibe you are going to have to look into doing this right. Unfortunately, that's not going to be easy or cheap. I think it is very possible to get that relaxed tone at a nice low volume with a distributed system and someone who is skilled at mixing.

 

As Trevcda said earlier, you don't want to cheap out on this and get the crap that the guy at the local guitar center recommends. I just don't see two cheap PA speakers and a powered mixer doing what you want to do here. I think you will want to look into a distributed audio system to keep the sound low and more uniform and someone to mix it who knows what the end goals are.

 

Do you know any system designers in your neck of the woods? I would start by working out a realistic budget (weighing the cost vs increase in patrons). Then bring someone in and talking your goals and budget. Good luck! Let us know how it goes.

[Dogoth]

As Shaster pointed out, Think about phase issues with multiple OH mics. Possibly 3 tight pattern mics in a cluster?

 

There's a 3:1 rule of thumb which states that all sources being equal the mics should be at least 3 times as far apart as they are from the source. This can be less with a tighter pattern (this would lessen the crowd noise as well).

 

An alternative technique is to have multiple mics at the same point source (I think the concept is called coincidence micing)).

[herbie d]

It seems like a sound person is needed, so why not create a position for yourself? If you can make the owner see the benefit of good quality sound, you've talked yourself into a relatively easy job. Provide a small PA, with a few mics.... drop in at the beginning of the night, set things up, and then go home and watch TV if you want to (when you're not playing the gig).

Ha! I'm a full time working musician! I lug around a system myself. I do this gig, because its on off nights, and its in my home town

 

Get the bartender.... to pack up the mics... at the end of the night.

 

OR if that's too much, get the owner to buy a system, and let the bands figure it out.

Thats what I'm trying to help get the Venue Owner from.

[herbie d]

 

As Shaster pointed out, Think about phase issues with multiple OH mics. Possibly 3 tight pattern mics in a cluster? There's a 3:1 rule of thumb which states that all sources being equal the mics should be at least 3 times as far apart as they are from the source. This can be less with a tighter pattern (this would lessen the crowd noise as well). An alternative technique is to have multiple mics at the same point source (I think the concept is called coincidence micing)).

 

 

Yea, your on what I'm talking about. I'm not sure what kind of mics to try. In my mic box I mostly have old 58's and 57's, a few PL80's, and a kick drum mic. The 57 was adequate for the stand-up bass, but he kept banging it with the bass by accident. (it'd make me jump every time)

I still think what I'm talking about could be done. It will prob be a month or so before I'm back in my home town, so I really don't have alot of time to keep going back to experiment.

The next time I play there I might drag in one of my floor monitors, to put in that adjoining room, try hanging a few 57's from the ceiling, and stick my sound man (knob turner, not sound engineer) with a mixer in that back room. I really hate to take up that space as its a small venue.

I'm not really sure what kind of mics to try, and most of the guys I know, do more or less type of sound applications I'm used to.

[herbie d]

 

I'm still trying to find a Garden Shop that sells money trees - but I'll guess I'll have to keep working until then:) They sell those in the town I was raised in. There called apple trees It's hard to re-invent the wheel. That's why folks have not been too keen on condensers in such a confined space, and location. It seems like a sound person is needed, so why not create a position for yourself? If you can make the owner see the benefit of good quality sound, you've talked yourself into a relatively easy job. Provide a small PA, with a few mics.... drop in at the beginning of the night, set things up, and then go home and watch TV if you want to (when you're not playing the gig). I'm a full time musician, I don't have time for that. A venue this small, and as little SPL that is needed, any "sound man" that would be interested in doing this would prob be a hack that couldn't get a job running a real system.(oh... i really said that?) Get the bartender.... to pack up the mics... at the end of the night. OR if that's too much, get the owner to buy a system, and let the bands figure it out.

 

This is what I'm trying to help my buddy to stay away from. Musicians, including my self are usually knuckle heads when it comes to, "low volume".