234xl vs VXS26

[Coaster]

i need another crossover by next friday. i have a 223XL in my amp rack now, mono three way. i need stereo next weekend, so i have been tossing around options. i could get another 223XL and just have both set three way for stereo, but i need to be able to do two way. the more i looked into this the more i realize i have three basic setups with this amp rack-

 

1. three way; clubs over single 18's

2. two way, tops over double 15" subs

3. two way, tops over single 18's

 

going between those is a repatch and reset (mono with one 223xl)

 

there is a used VSX26 for the same price as a new 234XL around, and i am intrigued. i know a few of us here have a vsx26, AXISPLAYER I AM LOOKING AT YOU.

 

do they still have no computer interface? usb stick problems? PC only?

 

can i make presets for the three scenarios above and never repatch anything (pretty sure i can)?

 

anything i specifically need to look at on a used unit besides the obvious runthough? is $240 a fair price?

 

if i get it i know i will be in over my head for next weekend. the best i hope for is a simple stereo three way with no eq, no limiters, just like i have now except mono. after that i would like to setit up better if i buy it.

 

also, the VSX26 in town is the blue and gray variety, not the silver one at peaveys site. is this an older model? its the same as the pic at sweetwaters site, just not a peaveys site.

[popgadget]

I have one and am pleased with it. There is no computer interface though, you have to set it up through it's own interface. Storing setups is easy, as is saving them to a USB stick.

It is actually a pretty powerful device. I have actually gotten good results with the RTA/ auto EQ function. It is a shame that the computer software never made it past the beta stage and is no longer available. Even in the beta stage, it would not interact realtime, you had to move setups via USB, so it's not a huge loss.

For that price, I would go for it.

[hornplayer]

Coaster

I own and use a VSX26 regularly. When I first put it in the rack and fired it up, I was amazed at the pristine sound coming out of the speakers. The unit made a noticable difference in sound quality. (Warning! Once you go DSP (digital signal processing) you'll never go back). Make no mistake the VSX26 and any other DSP is a computer.

 

That all being said I used a Peavey preset on the unit to acheive the sound.

 

So....

 

My suggestion would be if you want to go DSP you will have to upgrade your understanding of limiters, amp voltages/slopes, speaker specs etc. Then take the VSX26 manual and make it your own to the point of understanding every word in it. (And I do mean understanding it. Not just giving it lip service)

 

Then download a preset to it that is reasonably close to your amps and speakers, and tweak the parameters of the preset on the VSX26.

 

I know this sounds like a chore, and it is. But the knowledge gained will be with you always, and setting up and tuning up a PA system correctly will be extremely helpful to you. Besides you always have us here to help.

That's my .02 cents.

[Coaster]

i'm a little unsure about the amp attenuator settings with the vsx. i did a lot of reading about the vsx last night and learned a lot.

 

my low and mid amps have 42:1 voltage gain (32.5db). my high amp i have not looked up yet. from what i understand the vsx is setup for 20:1 voltage gain amps so i would need to lower the input atts by 10-20db. i dont know where to set the atts on my amps for this, from what other folks are saying it would seem like 11 o'clock area is the place to start.

 

from my understanding it seems like the balance of lows/mids/highs is set with the amp atts as well rather than in the vsx due to the fact that there is no analog output level adjustment on the vsx, and if you set the levels digitally then noise becomes an issue. again this is only my understanding through reading, i have not physically touched a unit but this further confuses where to set the attenuators.

 

i was able to find the old beta software and set up a couple different settings - i can have 8 presets? i'm a little worried about trying to find a usb stick that will work.

 

i first made a 2 '3 way' setup, then figured out i could make a summed mono sub output by instead making a 2 '2 way' setup and routing the A and B to output 4 and using a LP crossover on that. using a pad on the third input and having aux fed subs is intriguing, but i dont use aux fed subs now. cool idea though.

 

i found marty's paper on setting the eq for each output, tailoring each driver which is rally neat but i cant find his paper on setting the limiters on the vsx, anyone have a link for that?

 

i also read about a lot of folks not liking the noise of the unit, and others not having the noise problem. i'm a little concerned about this.

[agedhorse]

I believe the VSX is set up for amps w/ ~30dB gain out of the box. It's a +24dBu I/O device which allows for some leeway is setting amp sensitivity.

 

Generally, I like to run with 9dBof headroom before clipping anything so IF your console output is also +24dBu output (max before clipping) then use the following formula to determine amp input attenuation: +24dB - amp rated sensitivity - 9dB compliance headroom = attenuation amount.

 

So if you choose an amp that has a rated sensitivity (does not matter whatthe voltage gain or anything else is) of +6dBu for full output, then your amp's attenuation on the input sensitivity controls will be (+24 -6 -9 = 9dB attenuation) If your console is only +18dB then your attenuation will be only 3dB.

 

I use 9dB as a headroom figure because most folks do not really have enough PA and find themselves hitting things pretty hard often enough that limiter compliance is more important than any noise penalty.

[popgadget]

 

i was able to find the old beta software and set up a couple different settings - i can have 8 presets? i'm a little worried about trying to find a usb stick that will work. i also read about a lot of folks not liking the noise of the unit, and others not having the noise problem. i'm a little concerned about this.

 

Could you provide the link to where you found the software? I have been looking for it since my copy was lost in a hard drive failure. Count me among those with no noise complaints and happy VSX26 owners.

The advice to thoroughly read and comprehend the manual was excellent. (It is actually relevant to almost anything.) it sounds like you have decided to go with the VSX.

[Axisplayer]

VSX26 is a pretty nice unit. Other than no computer software, it is comparable to a DR260. I always liked mine and continued to use it until I got all XTI and ITech amps and the need went away. Mine is the older bluish unit. Setup is easy, SQ is very good. Many presets can be saved with no need to re-patch the unit. I had veried to poor luck with USB memsticks, but appear to be in the minority with that experience. Software would have made the unit easier, but it is never going to happen. Unit is still very viable, and other than software issues, it has no problems that I am aware of. A few users report noise issues. Proper gain structure and changing amp attenuator by 10 db made the issues a non-starter for me.

 

I think you will be very happy for the money invested.

[Coaster]

well i bought it. the guy threw in a dbx rta mic for $10 in a hardcase, looks like it was used once. will this mic be acceptable with the vsx?

 

i brought it home, firmware was 1.0.5. i flashed it to 1.0.6 without issue, with an 8gb usb stick. vsx would not recognize the preset i had made on the PC, so i opened the usb stick on the shop macintosh and added the extension .V26, then the vsx loaded the preset.

 

all 6 outputs work and are noise free, A and B input work ( i forgot the check the RTA input, now i am at work)

 

i played with it for a few minutes with the shop speakers (hodgepodge of cruddy speakers) and i really think the butterworth48 filters are sicko for my first three way preset i used LR24 though (for now)

 

right now i have a simple three way setup with mono summed subs, no eq, no dynamics.

 

i found the PC software at PSW LAB with a "VSX26" search. i can look again in a while. i found the OSX software at peavey VSX forum really fast. both are the same.

 

so far i am happy, i have yet to integrate it into my amp rack; its a LOT HEAVIER than the 223xl it is replacing, and the rack is already too heavy.

[Coaster]

mac http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/m/473090/0/?srch=vsx26+software#msg_473090

[agedhorse]

Beware of the BW-48db/oct. You really need to study what happens around the xover point acoustically when getting into steep curves. They have their place but not without a little analysis detail.

[Coaster]

win http://srforums.prosoundweb.com/index.php/mv/msg/49267/473039/0/#msg_473039

[Coaster]

Beware of the BW-48db/oct. You really need to study what happens around the xover point acoustically when getting into steep curves. They have their place but not without a little analysis detail.

 

i have no intention of using those i was having fun. i noticed it rang like mad at around 800hz

[Coaster]

any comments on using the dbx rta-m mic with the vsx?

[Coaster]

also i hate to ask but is constant directivity eq something i should be investing time and energy into with my tops and the VSX? the horns/HF drivers are stock s115IV

[dennis a]

 

any comments on using the dbx rta-m mic with the vsx?

 

It will be fine....a measurement mic is not brand specific.

[Coaster]

It will be fine....a measurement mic is not brand specific.

 

cool. i went and set it up with the shop hodgepodge speakers and frankly it startled me when the pink noise hit

 

interestingly the autograph undid a lot of the eq i have on the shop speakers, loudness button, cranked bass and treble. it sounded surprisingly PA-like when it got done, i'm impressed. i'm using a peavey 10/4 between the VSX and my marantz amp.

 

i have to unload a truck tomorrow, and if i have time i am going to try and hookup at least one side of my PA (which is across town) as i need to get this done by thursday.

[agedhorse]

 

also i hate to ask but is constant directivity eq something i should be investing time and energy into with my tops and the VSX? the horns/HF drivers are stock s115IV

 

 

Yes, but the HF CD point is rather high and the slope pretty gradual. It's a gradual boost eq to compensate for HF rolloff of CD (and other) horns. As a guess, I would expect the boost to be about 3dB per octave, ending up at +5dB of boost at 20kHz.

[agedhorse]

RTA mic is fine.

[Coaster]

where is a good place to read more on how to calculate the response curve for the CD eq? i've read marty's articles (2 anyway) but they dont go into how to map the existing response. i imagine it must involve my rta mic, pink noise and something like smaart.

 

also, why is it that the yamaha horns dont seem to need a whole lot of cd eq compared to a larger more quality HF/horn setup? is the yamaha horn more tame due to the 1" exit vs the 2" exit of better horns/drivers? it seems like the 2" exit horns need some serious eq on them whereas i havent really minded running without cd eq for a couple months now.

[Coaster]

i went and got my amp rack and two tops today (no subs) and set them up in the shop. i played with the autograph for quite some time just to see what it would do and its neat but so far kinda unpredictable (for me) depending on where i put the mic. i tried a lot of places just for fun and to see what would happen.

 

kepp in mind my shop is a horrible place for music; cement, steel etc.

 

very, very oddly i got the best response when i put the rta-m right in front of one of the horns dead center about 6 inches away. i have no idea why that would work, i wasnt sure what to expect when i tried that. i got a nice eq curve and a dip at 10k or 11.5k (around there). this dip seems to be a constant (clue! clue! there seems to be a bump there)

 

i played with some cd horn eq (on the mac, usb'ed it over, then tinkered) based on what andy said; i started +5 at 15k and put my little 1.5 db dip at 8k that i had on my FOH eq (no FOH eq's today), so there is a dip and then a slow rise to about 20k. after tinkering a found it sounded better boosted to 7db instead of 5db, it seemed to bring out the high hats on the various tunes i was listening to.

 

another odd thing - i have found over that last year or so that i have a tendency to bump 250hz on the mixwiz on a lot of channels, so i thought my system was a little deficient there but the autograph says i should put a 3db dip right at 250hz. could be my error in rta-m mic placement, room, or maybe i am just wrong. the autograph agrees with me on 160hz, it put the same -2db that i do.

 

boy you aint kidding that the amp attenuators need to come down, i could bury every amp in the rack deep into clip with the mixer main meters tickling zero. i turned them all down to half, and since they arent marked i dont really know how much reduction that is but the lows and mids will clip before the mixer does, right on the yellow ( i dont trust mackies numbers, +28 on the mackie seems to give me the same level as +9 on the mixwiz)

 

right now the HF drivers are louder than i have ever had them biamped and it sounds good that way, especially with the small dip at 10 or 11k. i acyually cuaght myself sitting and listening to tunes instead of working.

 

i like this VSX, and i have a lot more to do with it before this weekend.

[agedhorse]

 

where is a good place to read more on how to calculate the response curve for the CD eq? i've read marty's articles (2 anyway) but they dont go into how to map the existing response. i imagine it must involve my rta mic, pink noise and something like smaart. also, why is it that the yamaha horns dont seem to need a whole lot of cd eq compared to a larger more quality HF/horn setup? is the yamaha horn more tame due to the 1" exit vs the 2" exit of better horns/drivers? it seems like the 2" exit horns need some serious eq on them whereas i havent really minded running without cd eq for a couple months now.

 

 

Each horn flair will have a different amount of eq (both slope and ampiltude) plus there will be some eq due to driver rolloff too, but this can't be differentiated seperately from the horn flair so it's all luumped together.

 

2" exit drivers will have heavier diaphgrams and voice coils, plus the physical geometry of the phase bplug and throat leads to an earlier HF rolloff compared with smaller exit. 3/4" exit (small format 1") canj sound really nice at high frequencies provided they are crossed over high enough, but this may not be practical for high output cabinets. It's all a tradeoff.

 

You will also find that you will be better off backing off just a little bit on HF compared with "flat". It just seems a little bit more natural IME.

[Bugzie]

Would the VSX benefit from setting it up outside like the Driverack PA does? Or am I missreading something. By the way Andy, thanks your insight always opens my eyes to something that I hadn't considered. The VSX's are starting to show up around her really reasonable. Cheaper than what you paid on many occasions.

[agedhorse]

 

Would the VSX benefit from setting it up outside like the Driverack PA does? Or am I missreading something. By the way Andy, thanks your insight always opens my eyes to something that I hadn't considered. The VSX's are starting to show up around her really reasonable. Cheaper than what you paid on many occasions.

 

 

Yes, all processing benefits from anechoic measurement and correction. That's all you can correct for in advance, since you will not know the specific acoustic environment that you will be dealing with in advance. It's exactly what we do when designing powered speaker algorithem programs.

 

The world is being flooded with used gear, I'm holding back the flood from my shop but barely.

[Coaster]

i was having some issues setting the level relationship between mids and highs on my tops, so i broke out the RTA and pink to took a look at what was happening. i was fairly surprised to find a sonic disaster right at the crossover frequency, a large gash in the spectrum from 1.5k to 2.3k and no amount of raising the HF would eliminate the gash.

 

i was surprised, but not shocked. i should have checked with an analyzer before today as i have often wondered if the polarity on the HF was right.

 

it wasnt right.

 

i flipped it on the vsx and the response flattened out considerably. i got a little more ambitious and set the mic about 30" from the speaker and bypassed all the parametrics and toggled them one by one to see what affect they had on the response. the autograph had been telling the truth for the most part, as when i undid the parametrics i got a bump at 250, a large bump at 3150, and another at 10k. no matter where i put the mic in the last two days the autograph reported these bumps consistently (and other things inconsistently. i ignored the inconsistent results).

 

the rta said i had a bump at 800hz even when i moved the mic around, so i cut it 3db. so with the cut at 250, 800, 3150, and 10k (plus the cd horn eq) the response was impressively flat on the screen. i piped some tunes through the speakers and no longer agreed with the rta; the HF was to strong by about 4db. i dropped the attenuators on the HF amp by 4db and watched the HF on the RTA drop by 4db and the sound was normal.

 

this is when the speakers started to sound really, really good (considering what they are).

 

i was curious what the autograph had to say about it, and it said i was pretty much right on; it made a few 1 or 2db cuts in the 400-700 range and another couple in the mids but when i A/B'ed the eq bypassed i liked it better bypassed.

 

then i listened to a few tunes, and suddenly realized i had listen to an entire dave mathews concert. damn. time really flew there.

 

the RTA says i have a bunch of bad stuff happening at 120 and below (right now i have the HP on the mids bypassed because there are no subs int he shop) but i am disregarding that.

 

this VSX is a pretty serious piece of kit. me like.

[Coaster]

now i understand why since i had originally biamped the tops i have been typically using a boost at ~800 on the vocal channel eq's. it was that crossover gash. also i have always put a dip at 4k on the FOH eq ever since i got the tops, and lately at 8k. i was a little off by ear but generally close compared to the RTA.

 

what i dont understand is why i kept seeing boosts at 250 on a lot of channel eq's over the last season. the autograph and the rta both agreed i have a bump there, and it does sound better cut.