DBX DRPA good or not so good????

[Jay Swieringa]

I have a Midas Venice 320 that I use and the sound coming out of it is incredible based on what I am hearing while using my Sony headphones. My question is that the sound after I go through my DR and then Crown XTi amps 2000's on the mains, and 4000's on subs, and then JBL MRX speakers - 525's and 528's doesn't have the same crispness and clarity. I use a Phonic PAA2 to monitor the frequencies and everything is in line. I also use a Medusa Whirlwind snake so the chain I think is pretty good stuff. Would I be happier with the overall sound going back to an analog XO and EQ? Another option would be to go to an Ashly Protea 3.24. Which might work better? Or would I not notice any difference. The response I am getting locally is that the DR is the weak link in the system and that most pros don't like them.......Just looking for some input. Thanks....I am using the DR correctly too with the JBL and Crown amp settings and setting everything at unity gain and at the same clip point, nothing is over driven......

[Rezrover]

I use a PA+, works just fine.

[jwlussow]

A properly set up DRPA should not take away the crispness and clarity. Have you tried without the DPRA? Did you use the wizard or did you set it up manually?

[Rezrover]

Are you using the software in the amps as well as the DRPA?

[Jay Swieringa]

No not using any software on the amps. I've used the wizard and some time, but not all the time..... Would that make up that much of a difference, again I am using the PAA2 as a spectrum analizer and the frequncies are all level. I guess I just want to make sure, I was told that the D/A converters in the DR are not that good.....

[jwlussow]

The dbx has good converters.

[dennis a]

The DRPA isn't my favorite DriveRack unit but if you are having trouble making your Crown/JBL PA sound good with it, you may have trouble with any loudspeaker processor.

 

Dennis

[agedhorse]

Shouldn't be any problems at all regarding audio quality.

 

Of course, you can't directly compare headphones and a far-field speaker system and expect the audio quality to be identical. Perhaps your expectations are unrealistic.

 

Getting the most our of a speaker system involves more than just throwing a DSP in there and calling it done. This is what seperates the men form the boys IME.

[Jay Swieringa]

So are you saying that the Driverack and the Ashly Protea are comparable, sound wise and converter wise? It's not that the sound is bad....I've gotten plenty of work off the sound people are hearing, just would like to take it to the next level. I've looked at the 260 as well.

[Axisplayer]

Can you say XTA? Audible quality changes are not cheap. What you can measure vs what you can hear come at different price points.

[jwlussow]

260 is much better then the PA. Lots of reasons to upgrade.

[Rezrover]

 

The DRPA isn't my favorite DriveRack unit but if you are having trouble making your Crown/JBL PA sound good with it, you may have trouble with any loudspeaker processor. Dennis

 

 

Good point. Just because a 260 is a "better" product; it doesn't automatically improve your situation if you're having troubles running a DRPA.

[agedhorse]

I have 7 or 8 of the 260's and frankly, the sound differences are small to none BUT there are some added benefits if you do sophisticated routing and processing, it does have turn-on/off muting, and need computer control. I use the 260's because of the specific processing needs of these racks BUT I have installed plenty of DRPA's with no problems whatsoever.

 

As with all DR products, you do need to understand gain structure and you also need to ignore the gain structure addendum in the manual... it's completely wrong IMO for most applications.

[BenBroChill]

 

Can you say XTA? Audible quality changes are not cheap. What you can measure vs what you can hear come at different price points.

 

 

LOVE xta gear! I have a 2 DP448's on my main rig and a DBX DRPA on the B rig running the same amps and boxes actually as the OP. I have it sounding pretty damn good using the DRPA. I was actually impressed as when I originally purchased the system I wasn't expecting that. I think the advice is about right in assuming the DRPA is the weak link as I had to play with it for awhile to get it sounding its best, but if not setup correctly it's a fast downhill spiral. What settings are you using?

[Craig Vecchione]

So why not test by eliminating the DRPA? Since your issue is with clarity and crispness, you're talking about the MRX512's. So run one side directly from the Venice to one amp to the 512's. Keep the other side through the DRPA and shut down the sub amp. Compare.

[Jay Swieringa]

Craigv, that's good idea.....As far as the settings go, I am using the settings for the crown amps and the jbl speakers, I use the wizard to set them up, and then some time I will use the PAA2 while running pink noise though the board to set the EQ....I make sure the settings on the board are flat when using the pink noise.....maybe it's just that I am not pushing the highs enough around 2-8K range.....like I said it sounds very good, just notice that some other systems that use either the ashly or an analog XO sound a little better. Hard to explain because sound is so subjective.....It sounds like though that the DRPA should be able to do everything I need. Just might need to tweek it some more.

[Jay Swieringa]

Agedhorse - If you can best describe gain structure and I'll compare with what I do. I run pink noise through the board to the point of clipping, and then I set the amps to thier clipping point and then turn both down, and that is where I run the amps. Of course the speakers are not connected so I have no fear of damage. As far as the board is concerned again I try to keep everything at unity gain, no clipping or in the red so to speak. I know my board is quite forgiving, however I usually try to keep all the channels in the green, maybe the yellow at peak moments. I compress the vocals only as needed, and compress the lead guitar just slightly so it doesn't get away from me....

[Coaster]

the pa will never sound like your headphones. never. blaming a single piece of equipment like a decent quality system brain is, well.........i dont want to say anything mean.

 

perhaps you need to look into the interaction between sound source and environment in terms of reflections as the source of the less than expected sonic quality?

 

perhaps the DRPA is in fact setup poorly?

 

i've used the DRPA and while it is not my favorite tool, the truth is there is nothing wrong with it overall. it sounds very similar to my VSX26. i probably couldnt tell the two apart sonically when setup correctly.

 

many people need to stop forcing things to be what they think they should be, and rather let them be what they already are and are always going to be.

[Craig Vecchione]

Craigv, that's good idea.....As far as the settings go, I am using the settings for the crown amps and the jbl speakers, I use the wizard to set them up, and then some time I will use the PAA2 while running pink noise though the board to set the EQ....I make sure the settings on the board are flat when using the pink noise.....maybe it's just that I am not pushing the highs enough around 2-8K range.....like I said it sounds very good, just notice that some other systems that use either the ashly or an analog XO sound a little better. Hard to explain because sound is so subjective.....It sounds like though that the DRPA should be able to do everything I need. Just might need to tweek it some more.

 

AHAH!!!!

 

If you're using the auto EQ (pink noise, etc), I'll wager that's where the wheels are coming off. In most rooms I find its recommendations to be way off at the high and low extremes.

 

If anything, I'll run it (it won't "finish" in most rooms...I shut it off after 1 minute tops) and look at the graph it produces, and then knock the tops off the huge changes. Anything more than 6dB is probably a room mode that can't really be 'fixed' with EQ, so I usually reduce those changes to 3dB or less. This will usually result in a mix I like much better than the auto EQ built.

[agedhorse]

Jay, are you also setting up the Ashley and analog x-overs?

 

I found that the DRPA sounded as good or better than any of the analog x-overs I have used (including some that I designed), I don't think the DRPA is the weak link.

[agedhorse]

 

Agedhorse - If you can best describe gain structure and I'll compare with what I do. I run pink noise through the board to the point of clipping, and then I set the amps to thier clipping point and then turn both down, and that is where I run the amps. Of course the speakers are not connected so I have no fear of damage. As far as the board is concerned again I try to keep everything at unity gain, no clipping or in the red so to speak. I know my board is quite forgiving, however I usually try to keep all the channels in the green, maybe the yellow at peak moments. I compress the vocals only as needed, and compress the lead guitar just slightly so it doesn't get away from me....

 

 

Ok, here's something to think about...

 

If the board and the amps clip at the same time, and your board has the pro standard of +26dBu output capability, but the input and output of the DRPA (and 260 and many other DSP's) clip at +20dBu, then you will be clipping the DSP 6dB before clipping everything else. This is probably one of the most common user errors with DSP in general. Internally, most DSP's operate at around +6dBu before internal clipping, so there's input and output scaling that occurs inside the DSP boxes.

 

For proper system operation, set the DRPA's limiters off, set the DRPA to unity gain (0dB in, and out's to average around 0dB... some may be a few db + and the rest a few dB - ) then do the same thing you did before w/ pink noise but set the output level of your console to +12dBu. Turn your amps up to the point of clipping or limiting and THEN set your limiters on DSP so that the amps just no longer clip. Now, when you drive the system hard, the DSP's limiters and drive electronics will have 8dB of headroom on which to work. The term is called complance, and is the differential on which the limiter's gain reduction algotithems can operate while the rest of the DSP's I/O remains in linear operation. The penalty is a little noise.

 

With the limiters, it's a fine line between adequate steepness and overshoot versus audible artifacts, but if you are using this primarily as protection, it's not a big deal.

 

This is good general DSP information, and understanding the interanal AND exteral gain structure of all devices in the system are a big part of troubleshooting performance issues and maximizing the full potential of any DSP product.

 

(I design some products that use DSP internally, so I am sensitive to this topic).

[Craig Vecchione]

Thanks Andy, I copied your post to the Guide for Goobers thread. It clearly explains one good way to set gain structure.

[agedhorse]

No problem. I see this problem plenty-often in the field... often enough that it deserves mention.

[Bugzie]

Try setting the rig up outside and running the wizard. When I first got my DRPA I asked a few questions to gain some insight as to its operation. That was the first time I ever got a response from Andy and I distinctly remember him mentioning the shortfall in DBX's procedure on setup. When I did haul the rig out into my yard and try it I compared what the unit had done as compared to running it inside. What a friggin eye opener that was. The sound just opened up . Upon looking at the inside results compared to the outside results I found that the "wizard" had applied limiters quite strongly, basically choking the snot out of the boxes (MRX's by the way.) Took the whole rig back inside and EQ'd for the room and it sounded amazing. YMMV but it sure opened my eyes as to the DRPA use.

[Jay Swieringa]

Thanks for all the input. It appears that the DRPA should more than adequate for my needs. I do find that I'll run the wizard for the settings for the speakers and amps, however I usually set the eq with my ears and them compare the results using the Phonic PAA2. It is sometimes impossible to run the wizard for eqing because of some of the locations where we play and the inability to let the system take its time emitting the pink noise while people close by are enjoying a cold one. I have used the system outside and really felt I had pretty good sound with very little eqing at all. Like you said Bugzie getting the right sound is much easier outside than inside. I guess that's what makes this so addicting.....trying every weekend to get just that right sound, and never being totally satisfied, just hoping to get it where you know its good enough to keep the crowds hoping.....crazy huh!