technology / the internet ~ music industry relationships

[J.Paul]

Hi folks,

 

.....not sure if this is the right forum or even if I can articulate this observation / question incisively enough but :

 

As technology grows and social networking/internet platforms expand we (recordists and music industry types) are given greater opportunities but at the same time have become (and are rapidly becoming) more insular and isolated.

EXAMPLE :

~hiring someone to sing or play a session or track for a song via the internet

~licensing a song via a Taxi type of middleman (Youlicense.com, broadjam.com......)

~booking through a Gigmasters type of service

and hundreds of other similar opportunities and services

 

In an industry where (in the past) success (progress, or momentum) has been facilitated by relationships ..... are these technological opportunities fostering relationships that can germinate for the future?

~Would you recognize and say hello to one of those sessionists you hired if they

were in line with you at Starbucks?

~ Are you invited to the Christmas party or summer barbeque?

~ When the point person leaves to start their own "whatever" will you know so that

you can politic for another placement for yourself.

~ When the point person is "let go" will you know so that you can hire them for your

own "whatever" (networking works both ways)

 

Is the internet and technology replacing old school networking and interpersonal relationships? If so, what are the ramifications?

Discuss

[UstadKhanAli]

I suppose it's a bit of a trade-off. I've met friends from this and other forums. On the other hand, I don't think there's that same camaraderie and "organic" networking that would take place if we all bumped into each other doing our thing like in times past. I've grown up doing both, and I enjoy both, but I would definitely prefer bumping into people more and seeing them do their thing more often.

[UstadKhanAli]

And no, I'm typically not invited to their summer barbeque or Christmas party or any of that. I guess I see photos on Facebook, though.

 

There's a lot of nuances that we miss by communicating electronically and not face to face.

[Paul McCartney]

 

As technology grows and social networking/internet platforms expand we (recordists and music industry types) are given greater opportunities but at the same time have become (and are rapidly becoming) more insular and isolated. EXAMPLE : ~hiring someone to sing or play a session or track for a song via the internet ~licensing a song via a Taxi type of middleman (Youlicense.com, musicdealers.com......) ~booking through a Gigmasters type of service and hundreds of other similar opportunities and services In an industry where (in the past) success (progress, or momentum) has been facilitated by relationships ..... are these technological opportunities fostering relationships that can germinate for the future? ~Would you recognize and say hello to one of those sessionists you hired if they were in line with you at Starbucks? ~ Are you invited to the Christmas party or summer barbeque? ~ When the point person leaves to start their own "whatever" will you know so that you can politic for another placement for yourself. ~ When the point person is "let go" will you know so that you can hire them for your own "whatever" (networking works both ways) Is the internet and technology replacing old school networking and interpersonal relationships? If so, what are the ramifications? Discuss

 

 

 

 

Are you from another galaxy?

[Lee Flier]

I think it's still about "who you know," really. The Internet is great for networking, and for meeting people, collaborating online, etc. But it is no substitute for real relationships, including real people getting together in the same room and making music. If somebody lets their personal relationships atrophy in favor of online networking, that's a real shame.

 

I like the fact that I find out a lot of what my real-life friends and colleagues are up to via Facebook, for instance, and that has led to opportunities (whether music opportunities or volunteer stuff or just plain fun stuff and socializing opportunities) I wouldn't have known about otherwise. But the opportunity wouldn't have amounted to anything if we didn't have a real-life relationship. Without that, I'm just another person yammering on Facebook and they don't know whether I'm any good at what I do, or any fun to hang around with, from a hole in the ground.

 

I do have some long term online relationships where I'd go so far as to call the person a friend or colleague, even though I've never met them in person. But I still think things would be different if we lived near each other and could see each other face to face. There really isn't any substitute for that and anyone who thinks there is, I think, is making a big mistake. So I'm always going to put my real-life friends and colleagues ahead of anybody.

 

I do understand that online relationships can be great for people who are shy or otherwise socially awkward. Some people feel more comfortable "socializing" behind a keyboard, and so they're able to develop more quality relationships that way than they're ever been able to muster in person. But even then I would hope the person could eventually "graduate" to being able to meet their online friends face to face. For some people that'll just never happen, and I'm not judging those folks at all, just saying that even though it may be difficult, the effort is worth it.

[roomjello]

When you do what you do so well it stands above, you don't need connections. Your skill is your connection.

Focusing on connections is a waste of time and ruins not only the integrity of the said line of work but the products that are produced by that industry.

Look around, the people looking for connections are starving and filling the world with crap, the people with the skill are content and sleeping at night, they don't have to prove themselves.

 

Unlike some folks around here who live each day to brag and convince others of their imagined greatness, and show off a false fortune which is most likely inherited and undeserved and the cause for the individual's desperate lack of sense of self. Pretty sad.

[Lee Flier]

 

When you do what you do so well it stands above, you don't need connections. Your skill is your connection. Focusing on connections is a waste of time and ruins not only the integrity of the said line of work but the products that are produced by that industry.

 

 

Yeah, good way to sum it up. That doesn't mean that networking isn't a good thing, but if you're relying on stuff like Taxi and Gigmasters, UR DOIN IT WRONG.

[Huh?]

Unlike some folks around here who live each day to brag and convince others of their imagined greatness, and show off a false fortune which is most likely inherited and undeserved and the cause for the individual's desperate lack of sense of self. Pretty sad.

 

Whoa! Do I detect just the slightest trace of animosity there?

 

As far as the OP's post, at the end of the day, if someone is going to be paying you money or entrusting something of value to you..... you have to have some form of personal interaction in business, other than E mails and natter on Twitter etc. This goes for the entertainment industry big time.....personal relationships. They are not going away anytime soon. I am talking about once you have someone's attention, which you may have got to by way of some form of social networking service or mass mailing of "check out my demo's on YouTube and SoundCloud" E mails, or whatever.

 

If you are going to enter into some sort of agreement or contract to perform works for hire, a record contract, a publishing deal, a single song deal etc etc etc....the person writing the checks is going to want to get to meet the person he is giving his money to.

 

I don't believe you can expect much of anything real to happen, while skulking in your cave and hiding behind the veil of internet anonymity.

[roomjello]

Whoa! Do I detect just the slightest trace of animosity there?

Yes of coarse, not directed at the op or anyone sane or anything though.

[Huh?]

Yes of coarse , not directed at the op or anyone sane or anything though.

 

It was a tad coarse RJ although I must have missed something....but without coming right out and asking "who exactly is pulling that {censored}e?" and possibly inciting further unpleasantry....... I'll just say, I have no idea who you are referring to?

 

Wonderful place the internet.......but it can really bring out the worst in people sometimes.

[Paul McCartney]

 

If so, what are the ramifications?

 

 

You spend more time answering emails, texting and meetings via skype.

 

The production of music is still the same as it was before internet, you have studio, record the artist and the music, the only thing that changed is how the music is sold today, respectively since about 2001 when the first online shops came into existence.

 

All is about who you know and who is giving you work.

[J.Paul]

 

I've grown up doing both, and I enjoy both, but I would definitely prefer bumping into people more and seeing them do their thing more often.

 

 

My concern is more for the people (kids?) that are growing up now.....

Years from now you and I could be dead or out of the game by the time they have found their dynamic and are running things.I'm assuming the folks in this thread (so far) are adults (could be some kids here...not sure), and that we've come up shaking hands, having a beer (whatever) and the music results from that.

I'm not sure that's the way THEY are going to do it.

Roomjello suggests it shouldn't matter. Lee suggests it does. I'm not sure of either because everything is still integrated and balanced between real life-in person/ and virtual....unless you're making a video or playing live with people to people Optical recording and cloud services (and whatever else is developing) can replace everything else (production, distribution, marketing).

[J.Paul]

 

As far as the OP's post, at the end of the day, if someone is going to be paying you money or entrusting something of value to you..... you have to have some form of personal interaction in business, other than E mails and natter on Twitter etc. This goes for the entertainment industry big time.....personal relationships. They are not going away anytime soon. I am talking about once you have someone's attention, which you may have got to by way of some form of social networking service or mass mailing of "check out my demo's on YouTube and SoundCloud" E mails, or whatever. If you are going to enter into some sort of agreement or contract to perform works for hire, a record contract, a publishing deal, a single song deal etc etc etc....the person writing the checks is going to want to get to meet the person he is giving his money to. I don't believe you can expect much of anything real to happen, while skulking in your cave and hiding behind the veil of internet anonymity.

 

 

~So you don't know anyone that has had a licensing placement from the internet?

~You haven't hired someone (or been hired) to record,mix,master a song over the internet (or know of someone that HAS)?

[J.Paul]

 

All is about who you know and who is giving you work.

 

It's also about the work you are giving.

 

"cause in the end the love/work you make is equal to the love/work you take"

[J.Paul]

So if you could :

 

~find the act online (confirm they are not a product of protools by their live Youtubes)

~email or fax the 1st, 2nd, 3rd contract drafts and Fedex the final

~use songs from the artist and you and fill in the holes with FB folks that "friended you"

~record and hire out (online) whatever else you don't do (real orchestra or strings,loops,mix, club remix......)

~hire a graphics online and proof them online

~mail the glass master and artwork to the reproduction/replication company

~mail the physical CDs to the distributor the rest goes to CD Baby, Itunes and an

internet marketer to blanket the onlines distribution holes

~the graphic artist has a link to their spouse who is a video director.They are hired for

the video

~(so) you find the choreographer to make the dance (for the video) via Youtube/Vimeo

~set-up direct drafts from sales

 

WOULD you?

.....all without leaving home?

Do you already?

[Lee Knight]

 

Years from now you and I could be dead...

 

 

It'll never happen.

[Lee Knight]

I'll give you a great example of internet exchange being incredibly useful. Over at the Songwriting Forum. And yes, I've seen you tapping into that power over there as well, J. Paul. It's cool isn't it?

 

I love sitting in a room with a simpatico bud and having the excitement of ideas escalate into a waterfall of concrete songs. Good stuff that seems to come from the bouncing back and forth of two similar yet distinct creatives. It's magic and it's a downright hoot. But...

 

...it's sometimes hard to find or hold onto those kindred spirits. At the Songwriting Forum, I can have an idea, post it as a WIP (work in progress), ask for help, and within minutes have the bounce back. You get to know the crew. Who's who. The distinct styles. You trust your own instincts, but you are fed the most useful, or sometimes not, ideas and reaction. Sometimes bordering on co-write, other times just adding a sense of clarity that's hard alone.

 

You choose to take the advice and input or not. But the bounce back, that's what gets the juices flowing. I've got a freakin' worldwide network of helpful buds. 24/7.

[Paul McCartney]

 

~So you don't know anyone that has had a licensing placement from the internet? ~You haven't hired someone (or been hired) to record,mix,master a song over the internet (or know of someone that HAS)?

 

 

 

If you mean by "licensing placement" that a commission came in via internet, no don't di that, all clients we know at least also via telephone.

 

I never hired a recordist, mixer or mastering over the internet, and it doesn't happen that I get hired via internet, we know recordists, mixer poersonally. Masteing is done by the record company, and for film by the transfer department of the film prod. company.

[Paul McCartney]

I work with singers via internet, singer I have never seen in person.

[UstadKhanAli]

Are you from another galaxy?

 

[LeonardScaper]

Well.....I'm not an 'industry guy'. But I've been developing music relationships for a very long time. I think this is the best of times, quite frankly.

 

I just got back from a local studio where I was working on a new song in person with my collaborateur while we spoke online to a singer/songwriter who wants us to work with him over the next few weeks.

 

As a songwriter I love being able to garner input online both here at the HC Songwriters Forum and elsewhere. I have sent songs around the world for accompanyment tracks. How cool is that?

 

And you are all invited over next weekend for a BBQ.

 

Are you from another galaxy?

 

Well?

 

Are you?

[Lee Flier]

 

So if you could : ~find the act online (confirm they are not a product of protools by their live Youtubes) ~email or fax the 1st, 2nd, 3rd contract drafts and Fedex the final ~use songs from the artist and you and fill in the holes with FB folks that "friended you" ~record and hire out (online) whatever else you don't do (real orchestra or strings,loops,mix, club remix......) ~hire a graphics online and proof them online ~mail the glass master and artwork to the reproduction/replication company ~mail the physical CDs to the distributor the rest goes to CD Baby, Itunes and an internet marketer to blanket the onlines distribution holes ~the graphic artist has a link to their spouse who is a video director.They are hired for the video ~(so) you find the choreographer to make the dance (for the video) via Youtube/Vimeo ~set-up direct drafts from sales WOULD you? .....all without leaving home? Do you already?

 

 

I have worked on a couple of projects this way, yes. And would again if it was the right project. I wouldn't want to work that way all the time, though.

 

Also, in all the cases where this has happened, I was asked to do it. I didn't seek it out.

 

I've also worked with people I actually know in person but we live in different cities and would like to continue working together, so we do the remote thing. That's cool if it allows us to collaborate when we otherwise couldn't. But I still don't think it's a substitute for getting together in person. I know people who do almost nothing but Internet work these days, but it's still working for people they originally met in "real life," and had already established themselves that way.

 

I don't doubt there are and will continue to be people who meet everyone involved in a project online, start working together and complete entire projects without ever meeting. I don't really think that makes for the best music, though.

[Dingoist]

And you are all invited over next weekend for a BBQ. Well? Are you?

 

Dang, if it weren't for the sister-in-laws birthday party, and the air-fare, I'd be down (Actually I would, there's plenty of people here that I've exchanged on the forums that I'd love to hang out with and have a BBQ -- for a while my work has been threatening to send me to San Diego, so I'm hoping to use that as an excuse to go hang out with Lee Knight for an evening).

 

Honestly, any kind of industry is about networking and developing a relationship. I used LinkedIn for professional networking, and it helps. But, I used it to find out information from people I know first hand, such as I'm interested in what a company is doing for a vendor relationship, who do I know that knows people over there that I can get a first or second hand appraisal of what's going on, and use that as perhaps an introduction to meet the people in real life.

 

So, i would say for the music industry, there are things that you can accomplish via the internet, but if you combine real life face to face, and the internet as a way to reach more bodies, that's the way to go.

[temnov]

I've been working with several clients and mastering engineers over the net for several years. No problem at all.

 

As about licensing and distribution, I have some stuff on iTunes and Amazon via TuneCore, but you have to promote yourself on your own. It's the most important part of your success.

[J.Paul]

Good feedback so far.....

An example of the paradigm that concerns me :

 

I hire a pedal steel player through the internet to play a part on a song I'm pitching to our plugger (he only lives 15 miles from me). He is a live guy and studio guy.I Paypal him, send him an mp3, he lays the track, sends it back and it's done.

I WIN : I get a great part for a fair price

I LOSE : I didn't learn anything. I didn't have the opportunity to learn about his signal

chain, gear, method, how he sets his protool session up,....I didn't even get

to go to another part of town to see or learn about another neighborhood.I

only got a steel guitar part in a WAV file

 

HE WINS : He gets to lay the part at his leisure, at his home (or hotel room), with his

gear of choice.

HE LOSES : When the singer I play guitar for wants to hire a steel player for the fall tour

I won't refer him to audition (or refer him to any other road gig). I have

NO idea if his personality will mesh with our crew. Instead, I'll refer a guy

I saw on 2nd and Broadway, had a beer with, and got to hang with.

 

There wasn't any room for anything more to germinate